Frank Grimes
Full Member
Insane the amount of innocent lives being lost. 3600 died in the troubles in the North of Ireland in 30 years. Well more than twice that have died in a few weeks in Palestine. Barbaric.
Well, if its correct what a fecking cnut he is.Google translate essentially gives the same thing.
I honestly just don't understand what you are trying to gain from your posts in this thread. Everyone that is regularly posting in this thread has agreed with that general point, has called Hamas a terrorist organisation, and talked about what a horrible tragedy 7/10 was. Hamas aren't still in Israel killing people, though. Israel are wiping out thousands of innocent people and there's no sign of them stopping, their government are celebrating it online and on tv, and you still feel the need to 'both sides' every comment someone makes about it. It makes no sense. Israel are supposed to be a first world democracy abiding by the international laws set out by such countries, yet you feel the constant need to compare them to a literal terrorist organisation.Thats fine, but my original comment stands. If you think Israel is run by 'ethnofascist' genocidal thugs, then you'll agree so are Hamas. Only yesterday its leader reiterated their intention to wipe out Israel.
What do I 'gain' from my posts? What a weird point. I'm just doing what you're doing. Talking about a difficult situation. Obviously from a slightly different perspective. Sorry if my view upsets you or bores you. I know the majority of posters here probably disagree with me, goodness knows I get shouted down quite a bit, but hopefully we can broadly accept differing views. Otherwise it's just an echo chamber.I honestly just don't understand what you are trying to gain from your posts in this thread. Everyone that is regularly posting in this thread has agreed with that general point, has called Hamas a terrorist organisation, and talked about what a horrible tragedy 7/10 was. Hamas aren't still in Israel killing people, though. Israel are wiping out thousands of innocent people and there's no sign of them stopping, their government are celebrating it online and on tv, and you still feel the need to 'both sides' every comment someone makes about it. It makes no sense. Israel are supposed to be a first world democracy abiding by the international laws set out by such countries, yet you feel the constant need to compare them to a literal terrorist organisation.
Your posts just make no sense from a consistency perspective, you keep essentially defending Israel and won't let anyone say anything negative about them without reminding everyone of Hamas, but then you also post saying you completely disagree with what Israel are doing and think it's horrific.What do I 'gain' from my posts? What a weird point. I'm just doing what you're doing. Talking about a difficult situation. Obviously from a slightly different perspective. Sorry if my view upsets you or bores you. I know the majority of posters here probably disagree with me, goodness knows I get shouted down quite a bit, but hopefully we can broadly accept differing views. Otherwise it's just an echo chamber.
UN is a joke for that and for many other reasons. And the sad reality is that it would be the only viable option for a solution in Palestine if Israel accepted their full supervision in the areaFair play to the UN in this case. But this provided a bit of grim humour today.
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The thing is, no one in here is defending Hamas (except a few lunatics here and there perhaps, you never know). Everyone agrees their actions have been horrific. Yet you are constantly arguing as if people are defending them. Like, often when people condemn Israel's actions, you seem to push back by pointing to Hamas again.What do I 'gain' from my posts? What a weird point. I'm just doing what you're doing. Talking about a difficult situation. Obviously from a slightly different perspective. Sorry if my view upsets you or bores you. I know the majority of posters here probably disagree with me, goodness knows I get shouted down quite a bit, but hopefully we can broadly accept differing views. Otherwise it's just an echo chamber.
They make perfect sense my friend. Because that is essentially my position. I really hate the way Israel is going about things, but I also push back on the idea that this is a unique never seen before evil, that Israel is the only actor to blame in this whole mess, and I get upset about language that is unjustifiably extreme. There it is.Your posts just make no sense from a consistency perspective, you keep essentially defending Israel and won't let anyone say anything negative about them without reminding everyone of Hamas, but then you also post saying you completely disagree with what Israel are doing and think it's horrific.
But you keep listing the worst countries ever to point out that Israel aren't unique, you surely see how ridiculous this is?They make perfect sense my friend. Because that is essentially my position. I really hate the way Israel is going about things, but I also push back on the idea that this is a unique never seen before evil, that Israel is the only actor to blame in this whole mess, and I get upset about language that is unjustifiably extreme. There it is.
As F Scott Fitzgerald said, 'The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function'. Or second rate intelligence in my case probably.
OK I actually see your point here and how it's perceived. I guess it's hard for me to see the barrage of one-sided Israel hate here. For me this is more nuanced and more complicated. So in order to artificially achieve balance I pop in reminders of context and it's not a good v evil black and white thing. I genuinely think people have gone crazy over this. And I've been accused of whataboutery but I genuinely feel a grievance about how this is viewed compared to every other war, conflict, repression etc in recent history. That's how I feel.The thing is, no one in here is defending Hamas (except a few lunatics here and there perhaps, you never know). Everyone agrees their actions have been horrific. Yet you are constantly arguing as if people are defending them. Like, often when people condemn Israel's actions, you seem to push back by pointing to Hamas again.
It makes you come across as someone who doesn't really want to hear a bad word about Israel, or at least doesn't make you seem very genuine about it. That's not to say you are actually like that, but your posts make it seem that way.
Genuinely don't see your point here, sorry.But you keep listing the worst countries ever to point out that Israel aren't unique, you surely see how ridiculous this is?
Its perfectly rational to condemn the Hamas attack, acknowledge that it was always destined for far more violence and displacement inside Gaza via a massive Israeli response, and simultaneously disagree with the specific tactics the Israelis have used so far. None of these points are in conflict with one another, in fact, they are representative of a more balanced analysis of what is actually going on.The thing is, no one in here is defending Hamas (except a few lunatics here and there perhaps, you never know). Everyone agrees their actions have been horrific. Yet you are constantly arguing as if people are defending them. Like, often when people condemn Israel's actions, you seem to push back by pointing to Hamas again.
It makes you come across as someone who doesn't really want to hear a bad word about Israel, or at least doesn't make you seem very genuine about it. That's not to say you are actually like that, but your posts make it seem that way.
You are just engaging in whataboutism and listing off countries that everyone acknowledges as objectively shit in terms of human rights abuses etc., would you not hold Israel to a higher standard than that, given they are a first world country, aligned with the west and being backed by the biggest superpower there is? You don't think that given the recent history of Israel's population and how it was formed, they should be held to a higher standard in this specific context?Genuinely don't see your point here, sorry.
The argument is near pointless here. There's a fundamental disconnect between how you feel (attacked, wanting to feel safe, wanting to discuss how Israel can defend itself without killing/war) and how the majority of posters on this thread feel. (if you want to be safe and not feel attacked, dont support israel. condemn their existence. dont be a zionist. its your own fault for supporting a regime oppressing Palestinians. Israel don't have a right to defend itself because it created this mess and it's their own fault, if they want to feel safe they should give land to Palestinians)OK I actually see your point here and how it's perceived. I guess it's hard for me to see the barrage of one-sided Israel hate here. For me this is more nuanced and more complicated. So in order to artificially achieve balance I pop in reminders of context and it's not a good v evil black and white thing. I genuinely think people have gone crazy over this. And I've been accused of whataboutery but I genuinely feel a grievance about how this is viewed compared to every other war, conflict, repression etc in recent history. That's how I feel.
Shhhh. fuel shmuel it's all the same.So how much of that is for rockets and how much of that is for Generators?
Because it's not the same fuel.
Not sure if this is the best analogy since Hamas have their own food/water/fuel supplies underground. Not to mention shelter in an underground city. Obviously, its the civilians on the surface who will bear the brunt of everything during a siege.Alexander the Great got the area, by siege, by not attacking. By waiting till they are left with no food. After then Alexander won the place.
This is what is happening know.
I understand that and can sympathize with your position, which I'm sure is an extremely difficult one. It's a bit of a pile-on at the moment and while most of it is (in my opion at least) justified criticism, that probably doesn't make it easier. I just think you're sometimes doing more harm than good to your side of the argument.OK I actually see your point here and how it's perceived. I guess it's hard for me to see the barrage of one-sided Israel hate here. For me this is more nuanced and more complicated. So in order to artificially achieve balance I pop in reminders of context and it's not a good v evil black and white thing. I genuinely think people have gone crazy over this. And I've been accused of whataboutery but I genuinely feel a grievance about how this is viewed compared to every other war, conflict, repression etc in recent history. That's how I feel.
Ah OK. A few things.You are just engaging in whataboutism and listing off countries that everyone acknowledges as objectively shit in terms of human rights abuses etc., would you not hold Israel to a higher standard than that, given they are a first world country, aligned with the west and being backed by the biggest superpower there is? You don't think that given the recent history of Israel's population and how it was formed, they should be held to a higher standard in this specific context?
Fair enough. And I don't think many people's opinions are getting changed in discussions like this to be fair! It's good to vent sometimes.I understand that and can sympathize with your position, which I'm sure is an extremely difficult one. It's a bit of a pile-on at the moment and while most of it is (in my opion at least) justified criticism, that probably doesn't make it easier. I just think you're sometimes doing more harm than good to your side of the argument.
Then again, I'm not sure there's a good way to present that argument at the moment without getting shouted down, rightly or wrongly, with emotions so high right now. Maybe it will all calm down at some point, but I fear that won't be easy while casualty figures keep rising.
The "holding them to a higher standard" argument also wouldn't resonate given that the Israelis are now securitized into an existential mindset where they are now convinced they won't survive if Hamas isn't eliminated. That said, they will have to avoid civilian areas or else continue to be rightfully criticized for it since killing a few Hamas guys along with 10 fold civilians will always result in condemnation.Ah OK. A few things.
1) So you want Israel held to higher standards. I'm not getting that vibe from the protests. Hundreds of thousands of people gutted that Israel didn't live up to their lofty expectations? Maybe some. Some just want the killing to stop. Some hate Israel and want it destroyed. This whole thing is about way more than high expectations.
2) Israel may be a western oriented country, but it doesn't have the luxury of being in Europe. Even our precious western democracies would act differently if they were literally surrounded by a dozen or more states wanting them dead. That doesn't excuse their actions, but I'm just pointing out that their environment is very very different and expecting them to enact some sort of schengen passport scheme is unrealistic.
3) your reference to the holocaust is pathetic and I won't engage with it. No other country gets the holocaust thrown in its face, as if actually going through it wasn't enough. Just deal with what's happening now please on its own terms.
4) there's an implicit bias in what you're saying that other countries are automatically held to lower standards. Yes thousands may die in <insert whataboutery reference here> but that's to be expected really I guess, even if there's more actual deaths involved. Are you more interested in the victims if the perpetrators are your favourite villains?
He has no interest in any kind of balanced discussion. He's constantly in the exaggeration, hyperbole and disingenuous conflations.The thing is, no one in here is defending Hamas (except a few lunatics here and there perhaps, you never know). Everyone agrees their actions have been horrific. Yet you are constantly arguing as if people are defending them. Like, often when people condemn Israel's actions, you seem to push back by pointing to Hamas again.
It makes you come across as someone who doesn't really want to hear a bad word about Israel, or at least doesn't make you seem very genuine about it. That's not to say you are actually like that, but your posts make it seem that way.
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I can take constructive criticism from a lot of posters here. Either you're not reading the posts, not understanding them or choosing to pigeonhole posters into some stupid pro/anti teams.When people say they don't like Israel committing war crimes or hate the way this is all playing out, while being in favor of Israel's actions and pushing back against people who want them to stop, it just comes across as insincere. There's a centuries-old expression for it: crocodile tears.
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