I find it morally repugnant that the holocaust is used to defend apartheid against Palestinians.
they could team up with the IDF and look to disarm the lunatic facist settlers?
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
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Just started following this....what a monumental intel failure.
From wiki.
"According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Human Affairs database, as of 20 March 2023, there have been 6,269 Palestinian and 293 Israeli fatalities since 1 January 2008.[266]"
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east...y-israel/0000017f-ea1d-d4a6-af7f-fedfaedd0000
https://www.stimson.org/2023/what-drives-israel-iran-hostility-how-might-it-be-resolved/
Iran’s Islamists consider Israel an illegitimate state that has usurped Muslim/Arab lands and driven the Palestinians from their homeland. They believe Israel should be replaced by a non-denominational state in which Muslims and Jews live as equals. Some Iranian officials have expressed this view in terms that Israel has interpreted as threats to destroy it, like when former president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad spoke of wiping Israel off the pages of history, quoting Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the late leader of the 1979 revolution. However, this is not the only perspective within Iranian polity. Moderate and reformist elements accept Israel’s reality and its right to exist, alongside a Palestinian state
https://www.institutmontaigne.org/en/expressions/what-does-iran-really-want
Iran’s support for the Palestinian cause and its rhetoric of an ongoing war against Israel should be read in this context. If it was up to the Iranian people, a large majority would be in favor of normalizing relations with the Jewish state. And if seen from a sectarian perspective, Jerusalem is mostly a holy site of Sunni heritage and is not central to the Shia tradition. It is true that Ayatollah Khomeini was an early champion of the Palestinian cause, but in retrospect, that stance seems to have served more as an alibi to hide the narrowly Shia nature of his project. Iran’s anti-Israeli militancy serves multiple purposes, the most important of which is to argue that the Jewish state’s military power and behavior justify Iran’s own military and nuclear program. As to Iran’s arming of the Sunni movement Hamas in Gaza, it serves to maintain an indirect presence on Israel’s southwestern flank while driving a wedge into the Sunni front of Arab countries.
It feels like, one speech, several decades ago is being held onto and misinterpreted as cause justify in order to promote certain policies and geopolitics.
I see it more, they want a two state solution, rather than to destroy every Israeli.
You're looking at this from a Western view I think. Does the Middle East care about Uyghurs in China? Or about Pakistani migrant workers dying in Qatar?
Insults are not acceptable
Insulting each other solves nothing
Use the thread constructively or there will be action
+anyone calling the mod team idiots or cowards will face action too. We can’t be here 24/7. This is not our full time jobs
Use the thread constructively or there will be action
+anyone calling the mod team idiots or cowards will face action too. We can’t be here 24/7. This is not our full time jobs
It’s almost like, “they were so shit and basic we never saw them coming”
Quick scan through Israeli twitter accounts. Lots of criticism aimed at Netanyahu's government. Then again, getting attacked tends to unify a country so maybe Netanyahu comes out of this with more support.
The civilians I know who know about it do yeah. The governments are almost all to a country dictatorships that don't represent the will of their people in any way.
No worries! I honestly have no idea what you are talking about!
It's obvious we have to avoid hatred and polarisation, otherwise we're all in trouble.
It's sensible and rational to be disgusted by gunning down families, hunting civilians, and dancing on dead bodies. This is not 'resistance'. It's mass murder and war crimes. Obviously Israel has to react hard to this.
Also, the Israeli occupation is a stain on the region and it's not acceptable for western govts to look the other way. It has to end eventually, and Palestinians and Israelis are going to have to coexist somehow. It's obviously going to be years or decades away, and be at the cost of many lives. So sad.
It's sensible and rational to be disgusted by gunning down families, hunting civilians, and dancing on dead bodies. This is not 'resistance'. It's mass murder and war crimes. Obviously Israel has to react hard to this.
Also, the Israeli occupation is a stain on the region and it's not acceptable for western govts to look the other way. It has to end eventually, and Palestinians and Israelis are going to have to coexist somehow. It's obviously going to be years or decades away, and be at the cost of many lives. So sad.
there was a piece on LBC this morning, a live interview of a woman caller from a flat in tel aviv. and it was harrowing, hearing her palpable fear. then you think about the hundreds of occasions when women living in Gaza tower blocks (without access to state of the art safe rooms and emergency response etc) and you think how many interviews have LBC have done with them.
I can understand whey people here in the west sympathise and then empathise with the Israelis, because they look and sound more like 'us', and we hear their stories.
how many of you saw this?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...-undress/0000018a-6187-d895-ab8b-6fe7b7860000
now imagine if it was the other way round...
I'll clarify: Through the lens of a Western nation, what choice do you feel Israel has now other than massive retaliation?
Because they've already subjugated them as you say. And when there is an uprising like 9/11 they respond in a brutal fashion, with scant regard for the life of those outside their country. I'm not saying Israel is right, just that this is how its been done for hundreds of years when there's a power imbalance. They've always destroyed housing/crops/civilians or anything else that might provide insurgents refuge. It's what Russia/Syria are doing to the rebels, and what Turkey are doing to the Kurds. It's 'normal' because humans suck.
You love peace, and the smell of napalm.
2008 isn't the last decade, and that number refers to total fatalities not civilians.
Well said mate.
What other way would there be to "frame" it? Obviously in that scenario it would indeed be Ukraine turning down a ceasefire.
Facts are not subject to how one may feel about them.
Israel's choice will be a massive retaliation and destruction. There is no doubt about that. I also have no doubt in my mind that the Palestinians have 'lost' already, like I said, even if they themselves haven't yet realised.
Flipping it the other side, what choice do you feel Palestinians have/ have had? What choice have they had? There's the idealistic answer and the realpolitik answer (which as I said above, indicates they probably should just roll over and give up, because they've lost).
I think what bothers some is that the Turkish and Russian actions are seen as (rightly) awful, receive condemnation, get called Orcs on here yada yada and not compulsory but the Israeli ones are not.
Most on here would frame it as a fake offer and not in any way shape or form a real or just peace. And would put at least a portion, if not the majority of the blame, at the hands of Russia.
The people in charge may not but I'm pretty sure ordinary people living in those countries do tend to empathise with others who are suffering
I love peace. Sadly, no country will react to hundreds of its civilians being murdered in cold blood with an offer of a hug and a strongly worded letter. Nobody is going to enjoy this spiral of escalation and death other than extremists on both sides. It's going to be horror.
None, except to get the hell out of there and make a life for themselves elsewhere. Ideally with reparation payments from regional powers primarily Israel and Jordan. Realistically I agree with you.
It's why there's so much immigration to the West from the rest of the world. (and from the USA!) Because there is a tacit acceptance that they have 'lost' and need to get out of there before dying to a local warlord or local authority.
There's next to no coverage about the Russian atrocities in Syria, or about Turkey. I'd say there's more focus on Israel than either.
Fecking hell. Is this peak whataboutism??
Trump nearly incited a massacre on Jan 6 with that rhetoric. It's not just playing to an audience. It's priming them for bloodshed.
That's all nice to say but the fact is that nothing from the international community or Israel has indicated that there is hope Palestinians will get any justice or peace. It's actually going on the opposite direction with more evictions, land grabs, settlements and violence.
Indeed, so let's do the conflict justice and not play with numbers.
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Do I want to open that?
Curious how you arrived at a consensus on behalf of most on here? And not sure why it matters, in any case, what most on here would have to say. You asked me in particular and I'm not subject to most on here.
Your question and your follow-up are also incongruous. If Party A asks for peace and Party B says no, then it is Party B who opposes the peace at that point. If you meant to ask, whether I would say Party B was right or wrong in refusing the peace offer, that is an entirely different question. That could depend indeed, on whether it is militarily advantageous for the offering party, and therefore duplicitous; whether the offer does not provide reasonable assurances of good relations; whether the offer makes no genuine concessions, and so forth.
I also doubt "most on here" if that is the standard of right and wrong you choose to adopt, would then subsequently agree that Ukrainians would be right to enter Russian cities and massacre innocent civilians in a truly barbraric and depraved fashion.
Don't. I regrettably did so.
This is just semantics.
I'll take your word for it.
People should really watch the videos of what friendly Palestinian terrorists are doing to the dead bodies of Israelis, how they’re man handling captured Israeli women, imagine what they will do to her in the name of what their religion permits against the Jews? Why do I say religion? In every clip they’re screaming god is great.
I can’t wait for everyone to come out and condemn Israel for fighting back though against such peaceful people.
I can’t wait for everyone to come out and condemn Israel for fighting back though against such peaceful people.
It seems there's been a significant number of hostages taken, which means this crisis will run and run, and does not bode well for those taken.
When I was in Israel we were always taught to hide alone in this scenario, never in groups. A hostage taker is unlikely to kill their captive if they are the only one. If you have ten hostages, one becomes much more expendable. Judging from the videos we've seen I'd say there's around ten we know about, it could be many times more in reality.
When I was in Israel we were always taught to hide alone in this scenario, never in groups. A hostage taker is unlikely to kill their captive if they are the only one. If you have ten hostages, one becomes much more expendable. Judging from the videos we've seen I'd say there's around ten we know about, it could be many times more in reality.
I don’t think whataboutism helps anyone. Killing of innocent people on either side is unacceptable.
I know this is an emotive subject but please try to be reasonable folks. 8 reports when I logged on, all from this thread.
Interesting that you only have to go a few pages back to 219/220 to see the types of disgusting and unlawful crimes/murders Israeli forces committed against Palestinians with barely any replies compared to the full chest responses now.
If any are about dumbstar his points have already taken him to banned stage
Let’s not encourage whataboutism
Do people condemn Israel for fighting back against Hamas or do people condemn Israel for killing civilians? Pretty big distinction there I think
What do you think the appropriate response by Israel is to this, just out of interest? Would Israel be justified in carpet bombing Gaza and killing Palestinian civilians now, in your view?