Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[JakeC]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48489277

Have a feeling shit is going to hit the fan again in The Golan Heights.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

George Galloway sacked from the BC for this

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[2cents]

George Galloway sacked from the BC for this

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

If they’re upset at Galloway’s antisemitism then he should have been sacked ages ago.

 

[2mufc0]

If they’re upset at Galloway’s antisemitism then he should have been sacked ages ago.

Yeah you could make a stronger arguments with previous statements, but I don't think that tweet is anti semetic. It does seem criticism of the actions of Israel as a state is now commonly being wrongly being attributed as anti semetism.

 

[2cents]

Yeah you could make a stronger arguments with previous statements, but I don't think that tweet is anti semetic. It does seem criticism of the actions of Israel as a state is now commonly being wrongly being attributed as anti semetism.

I disagree, it’s pretty blatantly antisemitic IMO. What is the connection with Israel apart from the fact Spurs tend to be associated with a Jewish support base?

 

[Eboue]

Why is there an umlaut in israel?

 

[2mufc0]

I disagree, it’s pretty blatantly antisemitic IMO. What is the connection with Israel apart from the fact Spurs tend to be associated with a Jewish support base?

He's a vocal critic of Israel's human rights record with regards to their treatment of Palestinians, so that's the connection.

For example you could put any country's flag with questionable human rights record and object to it and shouldn't be branded racist for it.

E. G Man City and the UAE.

 

[2cents]

He's a vocal critic of Israel's human rights record with regards to their treatment of Palestinians, so that's the connection.

For example you could put any country's flag with questionable human rights record and object to it and shouldn't be branded racist for it.

What is the connection to the Champions League final? Does he think Liverpool’s victory prevented Maccabi Haifa getting their hands on the trophy?

 

[2mufc0]

What is the connection to the Champions League final? Does he think Liverpool’s victory prevented Maccabi Haifa getting their hands on the trophy?

Look at his timeline.

 

[2cents]

Look at his timeline.

How far back do I need to go?

 

[2cents]

Why is there an umlaut in israel?

My guess is that Galloway is expressing his non-recognition of the state of Israel by refusing to spell it properly, and possibly implying that Israelis belong in Germanic lands rather than the Middle East. With solidarity like that the liberation of Palestine is surely just weeks away.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I disagree, it’s pretty blatantly antisemitic IMO. What is the connection with Israel apart from the fact Spurs tend to be associated with a Jewish support base?

Spurs are owned by Jews and have a partial Jewish identity. I think he found a picture of a Spurs fan holding an Israel flag as his justification.

He's been retweeting stuff like this to prove his point that Israel is evil.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[shamans]

Pretty dumb tweet but how is it a sackable offense? Really annoying when people bring clubs and sport into the equation. Same for City and PSG. Criticize the owners but leave the players alone. They're not responsible for it.

 

[milemuncher777]

Israel plans to entrench annexation of East Jerusalem: Report

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/midd...on-east-jerusalem-report-190611194521022.html

 

[HarlanEiffler]

Spurs are owned by Jews and have a partial Jewish identity. I think he found a picture of a Spurs fan holding an Israel flag as his justification.

And therein lies the problem: Equating Jews with Israel is inherently antisemitic, as it insinuates that Jews are loyal to Israel by default, therefore all Jews are Israelis and responsible for the actions of the Israeli government. Some supporters of Tottenham (similar to the F-Side of Ajax) they fly Israeli flags in an embrace of exactly this anti-semitism that they get confronted with.

So it is not the Israeli flag that was in the beginning. It was the antisemitism against clubs such as Ajax and Tottenham that triggered them to show the flag.

 

[berbatrick]

And therein lies the problem: Equating Jews with Israel is inherently antisemitic, as it insinuates that Jews are loyal to Israel by default, therefore all Jews are Israelis and responsible for the actions of the Israeli government. Some supporters of Tottenham (similar to the F-Side of Ajax) they fly Israeli flags in an embrace of exactly this anti-semitism that they get confronted with.

So it is not the Israeli flag that was in the beginning. It was the antisemitism against clubs such as Ajax and Tottenham that triggered them to show the flag.

90% of the case against Corbyn's anti-semitism is based on his political stance regarding Israel and the militant groups that oppose Israel. Ilhan Omar criticises AIPAC and is called anti-semitic. Multiple prominent mainstream Jewish voices in western countries including the US and UK call anti-Zionism a form of anti-semitism.
This tacit or open equation of Jewishness and Israel can be done constantly by pro-Israeli politicians and organisations, and the expectation is that it will never percolate to the wider population?

Now I personally believe that Israel's foreign policy actions and allies make it clear that they do not have a problem with anti-semitic countries and leaders, from Saudi Arabia, to Orban, to cosying up tight with the GOP of Steve King. But it will never make it explicit, even as the PM's son and others discuss it openly.
Speaking only of the left, conspiracy-based thinking or an incomplete understanding of US foreign policy can make leftists believe that Israel or AIPAC does have an outsize role in foreign affairs, which feeds into old Jewish caricatures. But the cynical response has been of course to equate all criticism of Israel with anti-semitism. Chomsky and the pro-Israel Bernie are both "self-hating Jews" according to mainstream press articles. It is hard to take that attack seriously when it is used so cynically and continuously.


To complete all this with a solid source, we have the Israeli foreign minister:
https://www.nytimes.com/1975/11/03/archives/zionism-and-the-un.html

The United Nations began its life as an anti‐Nazi alliance. Thirty years later it is on the way to becoming the world center of antiSemitism. There is no other tribunal from which such a torrent of abuse is poured forth every year against values, ideals and articles of faith revered by the Jewish people across the centuries. The horrifying truth is that Hitler himself would often have felt at home in a forum which gave applause to a gun‐toting Yasir Arafat and an obsequious ovation to the murderous Idi Amin.

There is, of course, no difference whatever between anti‐Semitism and the denial of Israel's statehood. Classical anti‐Semitism denies the equal rights of Jews as citizens within society. Anti‐Zionism denies the equal rights of the Jewish people to its lawful sovereignty within the community of nations. The common principle in the two cases is discrimination.

Zionism is nothing more—but also nothing less—than the Jewish people's sense of origin and destination in the land linked eternally with its name. It is also the instrument whereby the Jewish nation seeks an authentic fulfillment of itself.

(You can read this and a few other similar articles and get a sense of how perfect this framing is to target the left, and left alone, about anti-semitism for foreign policy).

 

[HarlanEiffler]

90% of the case against Corbyn's anti-semitism is based on his political stance regarding Israel and the militant groups that oppose Israel. Ilhan Omar criticises AIPAC and is called anti-semitic. Multiple prominent mainstream Jewish voices in western countries including the US and UK call anti-Zionism a form of anti-semitism.
This tacit or open equation of Jewishness and Israel can be done constantly by pro-Israeli politicians and organisations, and the expectation is that it will never percolate to the wider population?

Now I personally believe that Israel's foreign policy actions and allies make it clear that they do not have a problem with anti-semitic countries and leaders, from Saudi Arabia, to Orban, to cosying up tight with the GOP of Steve King. But it will never make it explicit, even as the PM's son and others discuss it openly.
Speaking only of the left, conspiracy-based thinking or an incomplete understanding of US foreign policy can make leftists believe that Israel or AIPAC does have an outsize role in foreign affairs, which feeds into old Jewish caricatures. But the cynical response has been of course to equate all criticism of Israel with anti-semitism. Chomsky and the pro-Israel Bernie are both "self-hating Jews" according to mainstream press articles. It is hard to take that attack seriously when it is used so cynically and continuously.


To complete all this with a solid source, we have the Israeli foreign minister:
https://www.nytimes.com/1975/11/03/archives/zionism-and-the-un.html

(You can read this and a few other similar articles and get a sense of how perfect this framing is to target the left, and left alone, about anti-semitism for foreign policy).

I don't understand how this is relevant to the point I was making with regards to the tweet. I don't care about Corbyn or the Labour Party or the weird Anglo-saxon debate on antisemitism in the Left. The point I was making has nothing to do with Israel per se, but with the antisemitism that is thrown at clubs with a "Jewish" identity. If you then go on to connect this "Jewish" identity to the state of Israel and its actions, then you are saying that Jews can not simply be citizens of another country, but will always be connected with Israel in one way or the other (this is also called "double loyalty accusation", at least in German).

The Jewish state, which was build upon the promise that a second Shoah must never happen is of course positioning itself as the home of all the Jews. After all, it has to be, since it is (self-perceived as) the only save haven for Jews in a world that tried to exterminate them 75 years ago. This is something completely different (a positive welcoming of Jews) than the opposite, which is denying Jewish citizens their sense of belonging to a nation/group other than Israel. What has the Jewish history of Tottenham or Ajax have to do with Israel? Nothing besides... its Jewishness.

So, in a nutshell: If the first thing you think about when you hear about a club with a Jewish history (or talk with a Jew) is the state of Israel and that is the reason why you are happy that that specific club lost (or you think that that specific person has to make a stand on Israel or engage in a discussion on Israel) - this is antisemitic. Because you are not able to understand Jewishness in any other sense as in your position towards the Israeli state.

 

[Synco]

@berbatrick
I find that a rather strange post, considering the context of what @HarlanEiffler writes about. (Imo, it's simply a good short summary of the Tottenham issue.) It seems you got entirely hung up on the first sentence, while not taking into account the rest, which gives that sentence its context.

There's obviously a categorial difference regarding the kind of equation between Jewishness and Israel we're talking of - if it's made in a hostile or a self-identifying way. The former is exclusively anti-Jewish and made by non-Jews, while the other is in its essence a standpoint from a Jewish perspective. (Although it's certainly not the only Jewish standpoint on that matter, and it can also be made by non-Jews.)

It's also plain obvious that @HarlanEiffler spoke of the first variant, which led you to attack the second one. Sure, Harlan's statement doesn't take that difference into account*, but neither are you. And since context makes it crystal clear what variant Harlan talks about, it's a neglectable aspect of his argument, while the conflation is pretty much central to your post. (And I'd say your general stance on that subject.)

------
* It's a good example for what I see as the weakness of using short, abstract formulas as a tool for defining antisemitism - or any kind of bigotry, for that matter.


Edit: Ah, seconds late

 

[MJJ]

The Jewish state, which was build upon the promise that a second Shoah must never happen is of course positioning itself as the home of all the Jews. After all, it has to be, since it is (self-perceived as) the only save haven for Jews in a world that tried to exterminate them 75 years ago.

This is clearly not true, most of the world doesn't discriminate based on religion and Jews are living safely in majority of the world's countries.

 

[HarlanEiffler]

@berbatrick
I find that a rather strange post, considering the context of what @HarlanEiffler writes about. (Imo, it's simply a good short summary of the Tottenham issue.) It seems you got entirely hung up on the first sentence, while not taking into account the rest, which gives that sentence its context.

There's obviously a categorical difference regarding the kind of equation between Jewishness and Israel we're talking of - if it's made in a hostile or a self-identifying way. The former is exclusively anti-Jewish and made by non-Jews, while the other is in its essence a standpoint from a Jewish perspective. (Although it's certainly not the only Jewish standpoint on that matter, and it can also be made by non-Jews.)

It's also plain obvious that @HarlanEiffler spoke of the first variant, which led you to attack the second one. Sure, Harlan's statement doesn't take that difference into account*, but neither are you. And since context makes it crystal clear what variant Harlan talks about, it's a neglectable aspect of his argument, while the conflation is pretty much central to your post. (And I'd say your general stance on that subject.)

------
* It's a good example for what I see as the weakness of using short, abstract formulas as a tool for defining antisemitism - or any kind of bigotry, for that matter.


Edit. Ah, seconds late

Thanks for the clarification, that's what I was getting at (and hope I cleared it up in the second post, at least a little bit).

 

[HarlanEiffler]

This is clearly not true, most of the world doesn't discriminate based on religion and Jews are living safely in majority of the world's countries.

I say (self-perceived as) for a reason here. This is the narrative that is deeply engrained in Israel's self-perception. Like it or not, and however unfounded it may be in reality, this is the raison d'etre of the state of Israel. And it has been partial reality for the formative part of the existence of the country.

 

[MJJ]

I say (self-perceived as) for a reason here. This is the narrative that is deeply engrained in Israel's self-perception. Like it or not, and however unfounded it may be in reality, this is the raison d'etre of the state of Israel. And it has been partial reality for the formative part of the existence of the country.

Ah yes, I agree with that.

 

[KirkDuyt]

And therein lies the problem: Equating Jews with Israel is inherently antisemitic, as it insinuates that Jews are loyal to Israel by default, therefore all Jews are Israelis and responsible for the actions of the Israeli government. Some supporters of Tottenham (similar to the F-Side of Ajax) they fly Israeli flags in an embrace of exactly this anti-semitism that they get confronted with.

So it is not the Israeli flag that was in the beginning. It was the antisemitism against clubs such as Ajax and Tottenham that triggered them to show the flag.

There's a Jewish interest group in the Netherlands that wants Ajax fans to stop calling themselves Joden actually, since almost none of the people that use the term are actually Jewish or have anything to do with it. The different songs about Israel and "super jews" living there don't really help this image. There's actually a nice documentary about it made by an Israeli called "superjews". It explores the reason why Ajax came to be a "Jewish" club.

 

[HarlanEiffler]

There's a Jewish interest group in the Netherlands that wants Ajax fans to stop calling themselves Joden actually, since almost none of the people that use the term are actually Jewish or have anything to do with it. The different songs about Israel and "super jews" living there don't really help this image. There's actually a nice documentary about it made by an Israeli called "superjews". It explores the reason why Ajax came to be a "Jewish" club.

I can absolutely understand why Jewish interest groups have an issue with that... The organized fans that embraced the antisemitism hurled at them can actually harm actual Jews with their radical antics inside and outside the stadium. My personal take on it is that they are the lesser problem... the main problem are those people that made it necessary for F-Side to "embrace their Jewishness" in order to confront the antisemitism by (EDIT) Feynoord fans and others.

 

[2cents]

There's a Jewish interest group in the Netherlands that wants Ajax fans to stop calling themselves Joden actually, since almost none of the people that use the term are actually Jewish or have anything to do with it. The different songs about Israel and "super jews" living there don't really help this image. There's actually a nice documentary about it made by an Israeli called "superjews". It explores the reason why Ajax came to be a "Jewish" club.

I had no idea Ajax ever identified as a Jewish club in any way.

 

[HarlanEiffler]

Good article on the subject: https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...jax-fans-have-a-jewish-identity-a-926095.html

 

[KirkDuyt]

I can absolutely understand why Jewish interest groups have an issue with that... The organized fans that embraced the antisemitism hurled at them can actually harm actual Jews with their radical antics inside and outside the stadium. My personal take on it is that they are the lesser problem... the main problem are those people that made it necessary for F-Side to "embrace their Jewishness" in order to confront the antisemitism by PSV fans and others.

Ajax was known as a Jewish club long before that though. While Ajax was not at all founded as a Jewish club (more probably it was just an upper class student club when it was founded) the fact that they where in Amsterdam, with a relatively large Jewish population resulted in said connection. Even though Ajax is no more Jewish than other clubs at that time. So it seems weird to me that non Jewish people feel the need to identify as such after being abused for something they're not. I agree that the people yelling slurs are the problem, but I don't understand why non Jewish people from a club that has no actual connection to the Jewish people feel the need to keep identifying that way.

Bottom line, Ajax are not actually a Jewish club, they've never been a Jewish club and should stop identifying as one. It's just weird.

This does not at all excuse the terrible things rival supporters sing by the way (Feyenoord ultra's are sadly one of the main perps of that). Because some of the shit they sing (also linked in your article) is fecking hideous.

 

[2cents]

Good article on the subject: https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...jax-fans-have-a-jewish-identity-a-926095.html

Thanks.

 

[Synco]

This is clearly not true, most of the world doesn't discriminate based on religion and Jews are living safely in majority of the world's countries.

Neither statement is true, as far as I'm concerned. On the first one, such discrimination exists on state and/or wider society levels in not just a few places.

On the second, in the West there's quite a bit of state effort necessary to keep the threat for the Jewish population at halfways acceptable levels. It still doesn't work all that splendidly, and it has gotten worse in recent years. In places where the levels of hostility are unacceptable, most Jews have left anyway.

It's especially necessary to take into account the historical experience of the escalating dynamic antisemitism is capable of in times of crisis. Today's far from great situation is still one in the wake of a period of relative stability (strong emphasis on "relative" here). No one knows what the future will exactly be like, but the signs aren't promising at all.

 

[MJJ]

Neither statement is true, as far as I'm concerned. On the first one, such discrimination exists on state and/or wider society levels in not just a few places.

On the second, in the West there's quite a bit of state effort necessary to keep the threat for the Jewish population at halfways acceptable levels. It still doesn't work all that splendidly, and it has gotten worse in recent years. In places where the levels of hostility are unacceptable, most Jews have left anyway.

It's especially necessary to take into account the historical experience of the escalating dynamic antisemitism is capable of in times of crisis. Today's far from great situation is still one in the wake of a period of relative stability (strong emphasis on "relative" here). No one knows what the future will exactly be like, but the signs aren't promising at all.

Do you have any examples of this?

 

[2cents]

Do you have any examples of this?

Pretty much all major (and perhaps minor) Jewish institutions in mainland Western Europe have round the clock security as far as I know. This is from just the other week:

All Synagogues, Jewish Schools in Germany Need Police Guards, Angela Merkel Says Just Days After Kippah Warning

https://www.newsweek.com/anti-semit...l-police-protection-synagogues-jewish-1437216

 

[MJJ]

Pretty much all major (and perhaps minor) Jewish institutions in mainland Western Europe have round the clock security as far as I know. This is from just the other week:

All Synagogues, Jewish Schools in Germany Need Police Guards, Angela Merkel Says Just Days After Kippah Warning

https://www.newsweek.com/anti-semit...l-police-protection-synagogues-jewish-1437216

But that is the state protecting the synagogues/schools? Not "there's quite a bit of state effort necessary to keep the threat for the Jewish population at halfways acceptable levels.".

Merkel told CNN that Germany has “always had a certain number of anti-Semites among us, unfortunately.” She added, “There is to this day not a single synagogue, not a single daycare center for Jewish children, not a single school for Jewish children that does not need to be guarded by German policemen.”

The four-term chancellor said that young Germans must face “the specters of the past” to ensure that the country does not return to the anti-Semitism that engulfed the nation over 80 years ago. “We have to tell our young people what history has brought over us and others,” she explained.

Merkel's warning comes soon after the government's anti-Semitism commissioner, Felix Klein, suggested that German Jews should avoid wearing kippahs in some parts of the country due to an increasing rate of violent anti-Semitism.

The number of attacks against Jews in Germany increased from 1,504 in 2017 to 1,646 in 2018, Deutsche Welle reported, marking a rise of 10 percent. Over the same period, the recorded number of violent cases against Jewish people increased from 37 to 62.

“I cannot advise Jews to wear the kippah everywhere all the time in Germany,” Klein said in an interview carried by the Funke media group. He added he had “changed his mind [on the subject] compared to previously.”

Merkel's spokesperson has also been vowing to German Jews that the government will protect them amid apparent rising anti-Jewish sentiment. “It's the job of the state to ensure that anybody can move around securely with a skullcap in any place of our country,” Steffen Seibert said on Monday.

Merkel, rightfully, is making sure Jews feel protected and are free to practice their religion in Germany not suppressing their population. I was asking for examples of the latter.

 

[2cents]

But that is the state protecting the synagogues/schools? Not "there's quite a bit of state effort necessary to keep the threat for the Jewish population at halfways acceptable levels.".



Merkel, rightfully, is making sure Jews feel protected and are free to practice their religion in Germany not suppressing their population. I was asking for examples of the latter.

You've lost me a bit.

 

[MJJ]

You've lost me a bit.

I was asking Synco for examples of the below statements that he had made i.e. efforts that different states have made to keep the Jewish population at an acceptable level. I don't think police protecting jews count as such?

Neither statement is true, as far as I'm concerned. On the first one, such discrimination exists on state and/or wider society levels in not just a few places.

On the second, in the West there's quite a bit of state effort necessary to keep the threat for the Jewish population at halfways acceptable levels. It still doesn't work all that splendidly, and it has gotten worse in recent years. In places where the levels of hostility are unacceptable, most Jews have left anyway.

It's especially necessary to take into account the historical experience of the escalating dynamic antisemitism is capable of in times of crisis. Today's far from great situation is still one in the wake of a period of relative stability (strong emphasis on "relative" here). No one knows what the future will exactly be like, but the signs aren't promising at all.

 

[2cents]

I was asking Synco for examples of the below statements that he had made i.e. efforts that different states have made to keep the Jewish population at an acceptable level. I don't think police protecting jews count as such?

He said efforts to keep the threat against the Jewish population at an acceptable level. Surely police protection is an exact example of that?

His first statement you've bolded above concerned the idea you put forward that "most of the world doesn't discriminate based on religion."

 

[MJJ]

He said efforts to keep the threat against the Jewish population at an acceptable level. Surely police protection is an exact example of that?

His first statement you've bolded above concerned the idea you put forward that "most of the world doesn't discriminate based on religion."

Ahh I misread that statement.

 

[Synco]

Do you have any examples of this?

Ahh I misread that statement.

Okay, that has been cleared up, I was pretty puzzled myself. To whom it may concern anyway, here's the post I was writing in response:

Spoiler

Synagogues, Jewish kindergartens, and community centres are often heavily guarded. It has to be noted how exceptional that is: In Germany (and I'm sure in other countries) they're pretty much the only places where you see automatic weapons on the street, except perhaps for some high level government buildings.

To stay with the example of Germany: Considerable resources are spent to monitor and subdue the threat of Islamist and Neo-Nazi terrorism (for both of whom Jews are a prime target). There's an increased focus on education and social work because of the increasing threats on street level (both from "traditional" German and Muslim antisemitism). Politicians address these issues in high profile speeches, on local levels, and in media appearances such as talk shows (which are a main part of public political discourse over here). A commissioner for antisemitism has recently been appointed on government level, and already has his hands full in terms of work and public dispute. The state supports and cooperates with countless institutions of civil society dedicated to engaging racism, antisemitism, and the ideologies & organisations behind it. Laws are enforced against hate speech ("Volksverhetzung"), Holocaust denial, and all kinds of threatening and violent acts.

I can't really give specifics about other European countries, but I'm sure it's broadly similar in places like France, Belgium and elsewhere. There are probably also places where such efforts would be more than necessary, but aren't in place. For my view on how reassuring all of this is, see post #1269.

 

[Adisa]

Kushner's interview was a disgrace. Imagine I was a Palestinian, I'd be fuming.

 

[barros]

Okay, that has been cleared up, I was pretty puzzled myself. To whom it may concern anyway, here's the post I was writing in response:

Spoiler

Synagogues, Jewish kindergartens, and community centres are often heavily guarded. It has to be noted how exceptional that is: In Germany (and I'm sure in other countries) they're pretty much the only places where you see automatic weapons on the street, except perhaps for some high level government buildings.

To stay with the example of Germany: Considerable resources are spent to monitor and subdue the threat of Islamist and Neo-Nazi terrorism (for both of whom Jews are a prime target). There's an increased focus on education and social work because of the increasing threats on street level (both from "traditional" German and Muslim antisemitism). Politicians address these issues in high profile speeches, on local levels, and in media appearances such as talk shows (which are a main part of public political discourse over here). A commissioner for antisemitism has recently been appointed on government level, and already has his hands full in terms of work and public dispute. The state supports and cooperates with countless institutions of civil society dedicated to engaging racism, antisemitism, and the ideologies & organisations behind it. Laws are enforced against hate speech ("Volksverhetzung"), Holocaust denial, and all kinds of threatening and violent acts.

I can't really give specifics about other European countries, but I'm sure it's broadly similar in places like France, Belgium and elsewhere. There are probably also places where such efforts would be more than necessary, but aren't in place. For my view on how reassuring all of this is, see post #1269.

That sucks, here in New Jersey near where I work the jewish community center is not guarded with armed people at least as we can see but a couple of people who work with me say they aren’t, hate for the Jews in Europe still very high even after they almost exterminate them.

 

[Synco]

That sucks, here in New Jersey near where I work the jewish community center is not guarded with armed people at least as we can see but a couple of people who work with me say they aren’t, hate for the Jews in Europe still very high even after they almost exterminate them.

From what I know, there's a difference between a number of European countries and the US in that regard. It may change if Pittsburgh and Poway prove to be the beginning of something bigger. Hopefully it doesn't turn out that way.