Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Raven]

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To be expected really. If you couldn't tell there was something fishy going on when it was released then you weren't looking.

 

[space]

You should check out his posts in this thread. He didn't come across as hasbara to me, he came across as someone desperately clinging to the illusion that Israel is a decent place, fighting the good fight. Towards the end I think he was looking for a way out of the thread because it was dawning on him just how despicable a regime it is that he was defending.

Apologies if I've got any of this wrong but I do think he was genuine.

100%

 

[maniak]

On the optimistic side of things and as someone who's been invested in the issue from the beginning, I do have to say that this has made a lot of people wake up to the cold hard facts of Israeli aggression. As someone living in the UK it's quite incredible how the general population views this conflict as compared to even 5 years ago and I'm sure it's the same in the rest of the Western hemisphere.

Hopefully it's not too late and international pressure can force a 2 state solution.

He directly said he was ok with palestinian civilians being killed by the thousands.

 

[gfactor86]

100%

No, he was looking for a way out of the thread because he is exasperated. It gets tiring putting a point across and then immediately getting attacked and put down by the pack of hyenas in here.

 

[maniak]

No, he was looking for a way out of the thread because he is exasperated. It gets tiring putting a point across and then immediately getting attacked and put down by the pack of hyenas in here.

Yeah when people are ok with terrible things that tends to happen.

 

[Raven]

No, he was looking for a way out of the thread because he is exasperated. It gets tiring putting a point across and then immediately getting attacked and put down by the pack of hyenas in here.

It's a damn shame that our most reasonable Israel supporter left and the more extreme ones stayed.

 

[Ish]

It's a damn shame that our most reasonable Israel supporter left and the more extreme ones stayed.

100%

 

[Idxomer]

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Just a pathetic state on every level.

 

[Lee565]

What am I missing as to why most politicians and media outlets are defending isreal actions and whenever any politician or anybody in the entertainment industry show support to Palestine or denounce isreal actions, they are vilified?

 

[Idxomer]

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[Idxomer]

It's a damn shame that our most reasonable Israel supporter left and the more extreme ones stayed.

I don't think he has left.

 

[Idxomer]

What am I missing as to why most politicians and media outlets are defending isreal actions and whenever any politician or anybody in the entertainment industry show support to Palestine or denounce isreal actions, they are vilified?

A lot of them have benefited from those actions over the decades. Pro-Palestine supporters are vilified partly for the same reason and for challenging the status quo that has been established for decades regarding Zionist oppression.

 

[maniak]

What am I missing as to why most politicians and media outlets are defending isreal actions and whenever any politician or anybody in the entertainment industry show support to Palestine or denounce isreal actions, they are vilified?

A mix of racism and fear of being called anti-semitic.

 

[Idxomer]

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[Lee565]

A mix of racism and fear of being called anti-semitic.

It's very counter productive as it is probably creating more anti semitic feelings in society and also help embolden those who spout the conspiracy theory of Jewish people running the world

 

[Raven]

I don't think he has left.

He came back to correct me but he's at least taking a break from posting in here.

 

[Idxomer]

A mix of racism and fear of being called anti-semitic.

That too, I mean you have Jewish people being called antisemitic and accused of "blood libel" for showing the least amount of sympathy toward Palestinians. See Jonathan Glazer and what seemed to me like a mild condemnation of the Israeli actions. It probably tells you something about the strength of zionist arguments and foundations when they start to vilify, issue threats, and physically attack others for their opinions.

 

[Raven]

It's very counter productive as it is probably creating more anti semitic feelings in society and also help embolden those who spout the conspiracy theory of Jewish people running the world

That's kind of how it's designed though.

 

[Giggsyking]

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Wow, how can they mistake a bicycle with an RPG? its so obvious in the video he is holding the handles of a bicycle and the other person is carrying a bag of flour.

it's a disgusting crime.

 

[4bars]

It's very counter productive as it is probably creating more anti semitic feelings in society and also help embolden those who spout the conspiracy theory of Jewish people running the world

Basically because is frustrating that you can't even hint that Israel have influence in american politicians without being called anti-semitic when AIPAC proudly announced that all their supported politicians had been elected in a tweet.

Sure other collectives has influence in american politicians. But pointing out that israel has this kind of support when talking about the topic, it doesn't mean that you are saying that you are the only ones.

Is like me talking that the NRA has american politicians in their pockets when talking about gun control. Is the topic that I am talking about it and I am using arguments on why american society works like this

And Israel has a huge influence because they control american politicians. When then there is the out of jail card of anti-semitism and the historical victimization that has nothing to do with it

And I know all that I can understand actions and reactions, but other people without critical thinking they get frustrated and can derive to real anti-semitism tied to conspiracy theories that jews runs the world

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

It's a damn shame that our most reasonable Israel supporter left and the more extreme ones stayed.

The premise of this thread (or the majority of the internet) seems to be that there's no such thing as a reasonable Israeli supporter.
What makes one of those, in your opinion?

 

[Kaos]

The premise of this thread (or the majority of the internet) seems to be that there's no such thing as a reasonable Israeli supporter.
What makes one of those, in your opinion?

One that is able to denounce the occupation. By supporting Israel in it's current adherence to the status quo is to support the tenets of apartheid, subjugation, racism and oppression.

You can be a supporter of an Israeli state while insisting on the liberation of the Palestinian people. Simply trying to sidestep the issue of the occupation with the usual sentiment of "oh we just want peace" doesn't really absolve you by association with the crimes and injustices inflicted by Israel.

 

[That_Bloke]

No, he was looking for a way out of the thread because he is exasperated. It gets tiring putting a point across and then immediately getting attacked and put down by the pack of hyenas in here.

The irony.

 

[africanspur]

One that is able to denounce the occupation. By supporting Israel in it's current adherence to the status quo is to support the tenets of apartheid, subjugation, racism and oppression.

You can be a supporter of an Israeli state while insisting on the liberation of the Palestinian people. Simply trying to sidestep the issue of the occupation with the usual sentiment of "oh we just want peace" doesn't really absolve you by association with the crimes and injustices inflicted by Israel.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that is exactly the position that both Amir and Scholesythewise hold.

Not so much gfactor or Giggsy PO, who are on here purely to distract, obfuscate and shout antisemitism at every turn or frostbite, who is a straight up islamophobe and probably thinks this is all well deserved.

 

[That_Bloke]

The premise of this thread (or the majority of the internet) seems to be that there's no such thing as a reasonable Israeli supporter.
What makes one of those, in your opinion?

You certainly belong to them and it's a shame that you don't post here more often.

The two most active Israel supporters on this thread make one's eyes bleed. Their posts only consist in lies, denial, whataboutism, insults, fact twisting and an absolute resolution to never engage any conversation in a constructive manner.

 

[That_Bloke]

Apparently it's based on an intelligence estimate that suggests the viability of Netanyahu's government is dubious and Biden's growing criticism of Netanyahu. Biden's not actively trying to overthrow Bibi in some sort of coup, but he and the administration are intent on increasing pressure on Netanyahu. The headline is just hyperbole from a right wing paper though.

The meeting @Raoul mentioned with Benny Gantz and general criticism from Biden suggest that the administration would much rather deal with a less insane government. Obviously Netanyahu's prolonging the war to stay in power since he would lose any election in the near future.

Benny Gantz' position on Palestine, Gaza and the current massacre isn't different from Netanyahu's.

He's just more presentable, that's all.

 

[africanspur]

Some incredibly depressing updates from today:

Spoiler: Netanyahu says Rafah attack necessary, Israel will replace UNRWA

Netanyahu tells Dutch counterpart Rafah military operation necessary

Israeli media is reporting that the Israeli prime minister has told his Dutch counterpart Mark Rutte during a meeting in Jerusalem that a military operation in Rafah is necessary to achieving the war aims and reiterated that it will be going ahead.
In recent weeks, a number of countries have told Israel to abandon its plans for a ground offensive in the crammed southern city once declared a “safe zone”.
Benjamin Netanyahu also said Israel would replace the UN Palestinian refugee agency, UNRWA, and thanked Rutte for his country’s decision to suspend funds.
The Israeli prime minister also once again stated his opposition to a Palestinian state, which he said would be a win for Hamas.

Spoiler: Ben Gvir celebrates killing of child

Ben-Gvir shows support for Israeli officer accused of killing Palestinian boy

Israel’s far-right National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir has arrived at the Department of Internal Police Investigations (DIPI) to support a police officer set to be questioned over the killing of 13-year-old Rami El Halhuli, who was shot in the chest while playing with fireworks near the Shu’fat refugee camp in the occupied West Bank.
“It is outrageous to me that DIPI even dared to invite the fighter here for questioning, it is shameful and disgraceful,” Ben-Gvir was quoted by The Times of Israel as saying in a video posted on X.
“A terrorist sets off fireworks and wants to harm our soldiers, our fighters, and shoots the fireworks … A fighter comes and does exactly what we expect from him. This is simply the biggest scandal – that they summon him here and bring him for questioning,” he said in the video, shot in front of the DIPI premises.
He claimed that the teenager had shot fireworks “directly” at Israeli security forces despite video footage showing the fireworks being shot into the air. He praised the officer for “doing exceptional work” and criticised the DIPI for “destroying Israeli deterrence”.

Spoiler: Israeli forces invade Jenin again

Israeli forces kill young Palestinian man in Jenin

Israeli forces have stormed the grounds of the Jenin Government Hospital, shooting and killing one Palestinian man and wounding five others, according to the Wafa news agency.
The victim, Rabie Al-Noursi, was in his 20s, the agency said.
The killing came as Israeli forces earlier carried out raids across the city of Jenin and the Jenin refugee camp.

The 'port' that Israel will be destroying at some point in the next few months

 

[Amir]

He directly said he was ok with palestinian civilians being killed by the thousands.

After October 7, when Israeli civilians were butchered and had thousands of rockets fired on them, when the country was in a state of total disarray and fear, I absolutely thought Israel had every right to retaliate. What would a person think when he's spending so much time in s safe room after yet another siren and keeps hearing explosions around him? When he doesn't want to get out of the house, because there are fears there are still terrorist running around? I'd say it's quite normal to want your security back, no matter what.

And yes, people here were quite shocked at my stance, because it was contradictory to my usual opinion - but this was war. And in war, innocent people get hurt. Especially in a place like Gaza, due to the way Hamas was assimilated in the general population, its usage of civilian infrastructure and endless tunnels under the feet of the general population.

Now, does that mean I'm OK with was has happened since October? Absolutely not. Israel's response has been way to forceful, nowhere near as surgical as it should have been, has lasted too long, has absolutely been performed by soldiers whose blood was boiling after October 7 and who's been simply looking for revenge. And Israel, as country and as people, has mostly lost any sense of humanity and compassion. In a way, that is actually going to damage us a lot more than anything that happened on October 7.

Israel had to respond in October, but should have waited and figure out what to do rather than go on with all guns blazing, and without any sort of plan. That's why five months later, we've got idea where were going while Gaza and its people are in a terrible state.

 

[Idxomer]

Some incredibly depressing updates from today:

Spoiler: Netanyahu says Rafah attack necessary, Israel will replace UNRWA

Netanyahu tells Dutch counterpart Rafah military operation necessary

Israeli media is reporting that the Israeli prime minister has told his Dutch counterpart Mark Rutte during a meeting in Jerusalem that a military operation in Rafah is necessary to achieving the war aims and reiterated that it will be going ahead.
In recent weeks, a number of countries have told Israel to abandon its plans for a ground offensive in the crammed southern city once declared a “safe zone”.
Benjamin Netanyahu also said Israel would replace the UN Palestinian refugee agency, UNRWA, and thanked Rutte for his country’s decision to suspend funds.
The Israeli prime minister also once again stated his opposition to a Palestinian state, which he said would be a win for Hamas.

Spoiler: Ben Gvir celebrates killing of child

Ben-Gvir shows support for Israeli officer accused of killing Palestinian boy

Israel’s far-right National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir has arrived at the Department of Internal Police Investigations (DIPI) to support a police officer set to be questioned over the killing of 13-year-old Rami El Halhuli, who was shot in the chest while playing with fireworks near the Shu’fat refugee camp in the occupied West Bank.
“It is outrageous to me that DIPI even dared to invite the fighter here for questioning, it is shameful and disgraceful,” Ben-Gvir was quoted by The Times of Israel as saying in a video posted on X.
“A terrorist sets off fireworks and wants to harm our soldiers, our fighters, and shoots the fireworks … A fighter comes and does exactly what we expect from him. This is simply the biggest scandal – that they summon him here and bring him for questioning,” he said in the video, shot in front of the DIPI premises.
He claimed that the teenager had shot fireworks “directly” at Israeli security forces despite video footage showing the fireworks being shot into the air. He praised the officer for “doing exceptional work” and criticised the DIPI for “destroying Israeli deterrence”.

Spoiler: Israeli forces invade Jenin again

Israeli forces kill young Palestinian man in Jenin

Israeli forces have stormed the grounds of the Jenin Government Hospital, shooting and killing one Palestinian man and wounding five others, according to the Wafa news agency.
The victim, Rabie Al-Noursi, was in his 20s, the agency said.
The killing came as Israeli forces earlier carried out raids across the city of Jenin and the Jenin refugee camp.

The 'port' that Israel will be destroying at some point in the next few months

Add this too

Israeli military says it will push Rafah’s civilians to ‘humanitarian islands’

 

[4bars]

After October 7, when Israeli civilians were butchered and had thousands of rockets fired on them, when the country was in a state of total disarray and fear, I absolutely thought Israel had every right to retaliate. What would a person think when he's spending so much time in s safe room after yet another siren and keeps hearing explosions around him? When he doesn't want to get out of the house, because there are fears there are still terrorist running around? I'd say it's quite normal to want your security back, no matter what.

And yes, people here were quite shocked at my stance, because it was contradictory to my usual opinion - but this was war. And in war, innocent people get hurt. Especially in a place like Gaza, due to the way Hamas was assimilated in the general population, its usage of civilian infrastructure and endless tunnels under the feet of the general population.

Now, does that mean I'm OK with was has happened since October? Absolutely not. Israel's response has been way to forceful, nowhere near as surgical as it should have been, has lasted too long, has absolutely been performed by soldiers whose blood was boiling after October 7 and who's been simply looking for revenge. And Israel, as country and as people, has mostly lost any sense of humanity and compassion. In a way, that is actually going to damage us a lot more than anything that happened on October 7.

Israel had to respond in October, but should have waited and figure out what to do rather than go on with all guns blazing, and without any sort of plan. That's why five months later, we've got idea where were going while Gaza and its people are in a terrible state.

Thanks a lot for this explanation (that you didn't have too)

It shows that people vision can change. I understand that being Israeli you wanted blood at the very beginning. Specially living there in 1st person. Specially because there was a disgraceful and horrible terrorist attached that killed +1000 of your people, maybe someone you know or you know someone you know. Fear of safety. Also, some of the lies like the 40 beheaded babies didn't help.

But as the conflict has been unfolded, it is completely fair to get more access to truthful information (for both sides) and also, that there is a limit to what is rational and when that limit is crossed change the stands as it happened with you

We should all be understandable of these circumstances and what was said at the beginning should not be thrown NOW when things had change.

IMO is worse to have an stand and not changing your opinion no matter what that being sensitive enough to change if you see the conflict in another light. I called amir disgusting on his views at the beginning of the conflict and I still think that that comment was disgusting but I consider that I can understand at this moment someone could reach that point, as much as wrong. But I think Amir, not agreeing in certain aspects (even making me mad), at least is the most reasonable voice that it can be found on the Israeli perspective

 

[The Corinthian]

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[Denis79]

After October 7, when Israeli civilians were butchered and had thousands of rockets fired on them, when the country was in a state of total disarray and fear, I absolutely thought Israel had every right to retaliate. What would a person think when he's spending so much time in s safe room after yet another siren and keeps hearing explosions around him? When he doesn't want to get out of the house, because there are fears there are still terrorist running around? I'd say it's quite normal to want your security back, no matter what.

And yes, people here were quite shocked at my stance, because it was contradictory to my usual opinion - but this was war. And in war, innocent people get hurt. Especially in a place like Gaza, due to the way Hamas was assimilated in the general population, its usage of civilian infrastructure and endless tunnels under the feet of the general population.

Now, does that mean I'm OK with was has happened since October? Absolutely not. Israel's response has been way to forceful, nowhere near as surgical as it should have been, has lasted too long, has absolutely been performed by soldiers whose blood was boiling after October 7 and who's been simply looking for revenge. And Israel, as country and as people, has mostly lost any sense of humanity and compassion. In a way, that is actually going to damage us a lot more than anything that happened on October 7.

Israel had to respond in October, but should have waited and figure out what to do rather than go on with all guns blazing, and without any sort of plan. That's why five months later, we've got idea where were going while Gaza and its people are in a terrible state.

I was also for Israel defending itself after the terror attacks. The turning point for me came when I saw how they did it. I'll be honest, my view of Israel has completely changed. I see them the same way I see Hamas, Russia, Iran, or other organizations or states that use terror on civilians to get their way. When I say Israel, I mean the military and leadership because it is unfair to apply a broad brush upon all its citizens. Ordinary people will always call for the extreme, want revenge, it is the responsibility of the people in charge to make sure international laws are abided. This Israeli government and many of it's soldiers are nothing but war criminals and I sincerely hope they are brought to trial.

 

[Giggsy PO]

This video is everything this thread is not. It is two hour dialogue with American Palestinian originally from Gaza. At least for me it is quite rare to get Palestinian point of view which:

1. Is capable to criticize Israel, IDF and at the same time Palestinian Leadership, Hamas, Al Jazeera etc.
2. Is able to criticize Israel in tough but fair manner without need to demonize the whole nation.
3. Is not an antisemite who pretends “I am not antisemite, I am just anti-zionist”.

He provides valuable insight, again, at least for me. Obviously I have my differences with what he says, mainly regarding solutions. But if there would be people like him and e.g. Yuval Noah Harrari speaking, something productive could be done. Also the format of the interview helped enormously. It wasn't set up as a dogfight for views and clicks.

So I recommend this to everybody who is willing to spend 2 hours on well articulated Palestinian point of view. If you know it all, disregard this post.

Note: This is obviously not for posters who like to flood this thread with antisemitic content regularly. It is not me or gfactor saying. It was other poster who called them out last week. @africanspur Have you noticed that? I guess not. I quite long post. But nobody reacted to it.

 

[Conor]

After October 7, when Israeli civilians were butchered and had thousands of rockets fired on them, when the country was in a state of total disarray and fear, I absolutely thought Israel had every right to retaliate. What would a person think when he's spending so much time in s safe room after yet another siren and keeps hearing explosions around him? When he doesn't want to get out of the house, because there are fears there are still terrorist running around? I'd say it's quite normal to want your security back, no matter what.

And yes, people here were quite shocked at my stance, because it was contradictory to my usual opinion - but this was war. And in war, innocent people get hurt. Especially in a place like Gaza, due to the way Hamas was assimilated in the general population, its usage of civilian infrastructure and endless tunnels under the feet of the general population.

Now, does that mean I'm OK with was has happened since October? Absolutely not. Israel's response has been way to forceful, nowhere near as surgical as it should have been, has lasted too long, has absolutely been performed by soldiers whose blood was boiling after October 7 and who's been simply looking for revenge. And Israel, as country and as people, has mostly lost any sense of humanity and compassion. In a way, that is actually going to damage us a lot more than anything that happened on October 7.

Israel had to respond in October, but should have waited and figure out what to do rather than go on with all guns blazing, and without any sort of plan. That's why five months later, we've got idea where were going while Gaza and its people are in a terrible state.

You explicitly said something along the lines of 'maybe they all need to go', with respect to Gaza. I don't think many would hold having opinions towards retaliation in that moment against you, but it was quite a bit stronger than that.

 

[Amir]

You explicitly said something along the lines of 'maybe they all need to go', with respect to Gaza. I don't think many would hold having opinions towards retaliation in that moment against you, but it was quite a bit stronger than that.

I'm quite certain I never said that, because I never thought it. Certainly not when it comes to ordinary civilians in Gaza. Maybe Hamas people only.

 

[gfactor86]

After October 7, when Israeli civilians were butchered and had thousands of rockets fired on them, when the country was in a state of total disarray and fear, I absolutely thought Israel had every right to retaliate. What would a person think when he's spending so much time in s safe room after yet another siren and keeps hearing explosions around him? When he doesn't want to get out of the house, because there are fears there are still terrorist running around? I'd say it's quite normal to want your security back, no matter what.

And yes, people here were quite shocked at my stance, because it was contradictory to my usual opinion - but this was war. And in war, innocent people get hurt. Especially in a place like Gaza, due to the way Hamas was assimilated in the general population, its usage of civilian infrastructure and endless tunnels under the feet of the general population.

Now, does that mean I'm OK with was has happened since October? Absolutely not. Israel's response has been way to forceful, nowhere near as surgical as it should have been, has lasted too long, has absolutely been performed by soldiers whose blood was boiling after October 7 and who's been simply looking for revenge. And Israel, as country and as people, has mostly lost any sense of humanity and compassion. In a way, that is actually going to damage us a lot more than anything that happened on October 7.

Israel had to respond in October, but should have waited and figure out what to do rather than go on with all guns blazing, and without any sort of plan. That's why five months later, we've got idea where were going while Gaza and its people are in a terrible state.

great post

 

[africanspur]

This video is everything this thread is not. It is two hour dialogue with American Palestinian originally from Gaza. At least for me it is quite rare to get Palestinian point of view which:

1. Is capable to criticize Israel, IDF and at the same time Palestinian Leadership, Hamas, Al Jazeera etc.
2. Is able to criticize Israel in tough but fair manner without need to demonize the whole nation.
3. Is not an antisemite who pretends “I am not antisemite, I am just anti-zionist”.

He provides valuable insight, again, at least for me. Obviously I have my differences with what he says, mainly regarding solutions. But if there would be people like him and e.g. Yuval Noah Harrari speaking, something productive could be done. Also the format of the interview helped enormously. It wasn't set up as a dogfight for views and clicks.

So I recommend this to everybody who is willing to spend 2 hours on well articulated Palestinian point of view. If you know it all, disregard this post.

Note: This is obviously not for posters who like to flood this thread with antisemitic content regularly. It is not me or gfactor saying. It was other poster who called them out last week. @africanspur Have you noticed that? I guess not. I quite long post. But nobody reacted to it.

I'm not quite clear on what you're asking me with regards to realising. Are you asking whether I noticed another poster calling out antisemitic content? Are you accusing me of posting antisemitic content? I really don't understand.

 

[Kaos]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that is exactly the position that both Amir and Scholesythewise hold.

Not so much gfactor or Giggsy PO, who are on here purely to distract, obfuscate and shout antisemitism at every turn or frostbite, who is a straight up islamophobe and probably thinks this is all well deserved.

I might have remembered wrongly (and apologies to ScholesyTW if thats the case), but I recalled him suggesting early into this recent conflict than the only feasible solution was the forced 'relocation' of Palestinians. If he still believes that then I'd struggle to categorise him as a reasonable voice for the Israeli side.

 

[Kaos]

You explicitly said something along the lines of 'maybe they all need to go', with respect to Gaza. I don't think many would hold having opinions towards retaliation in that moment against you, but it was quite a bit stronger than that.

Nah that wasn't him. I think my biggest issue with Amir is perhaps his apathy towards Palestinian injustice, but on the whole I'd consider him a more level-headed and very much welcome voice in this thread.

 

[Giggsy PO]

I'm not quite clear on what you're asking me with regards to realising. Are you asking whether I noticed another poster calling out antisemitic content? Are you accusing me of posting antisemitic content? I really don't understand.

I am not accusing you of antisemitism. On the contrary I quite like your posts even if I don't agree with them (no sarcasm). I guess my wording let me down. Sorry for that. You said about me that I shout about antisemitism a lot. I wanted to point out that in was in fact another poster (Ekkie Thump) who singled out other posters who regularly posts tweets with antisemitic content.