Netanyahu? and ample majority of Israel population supports it. He is just carrying the will of his people
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
- Start date
Yes, but I'm not sure one can unedrstand the effect he has on his people when one doesn't live here.
Nevermind, not sure it's worth discussing that much.
I just wish I was born in Costa Rica, or that I would someday find immigration more feasable.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
They're taking it well. Maybe they expected the US to join them in the invasion of Rafah ?
I doubt it would be much different without netanyahu. Israel society would evolve to that point little bit little more with or without him IMO. As you said not much point to discuss. just hypoteticals
May we see a free Palestine in our lifetime. I hope all the politicians who have supported the apartheid state be reminded of their shame forever (not that it will make much difference to them)
On the contrary, there's too few people on this thread who can explain the internal mechanisms of the Israeli society as well as why this psychopathic Teflon Don managed to politically survive this long and get such a hold on a notable part of the population. And we badly need them.
My own theory is that the Israel got drunk from its own success and kind of sleepwalked into it. It somehow convinced itself that security at the expense of the Palestinians was the way to go. Why shouldn't they? The power balance is so utterly in favor of the Israelis. They were economically, technologically and militarily more advanced, had the unconditional backing of those who matter on the international scene, which in a perverse way comforted them that they couldn't do anything wrong. And even if they did, there wouldn't be any consequence.
Another important factor, maybe the most crucial, is that the militarization of the society and decades long of occupation and expansion, slowly poisoned the mind of an ever growing part of the Israelis and largely contributed to its radicalization. It convinced them that somehow what they've been doing and still do the Palestinians is actually justified and all in all, normal.
Netanyahu is only the tip of the iceberg, and a Ben Gvir or a Smotrich don't pop out of nowhere. I also don't see the tendency reversing in the coming years.
I also don't think that the Israelis are the first society that fell into in this trap and got lulled into a false sense of security. The colonial societies, the slavery based American society, the French at the eve of the 1789 revolution, the South African under the Apartheid, to mention a few, did the exact same mistake. And it always ends the same way.
There's also the Native American or Aboriginal Australian route, which is still on the cards.
Last edited:
You lot can join us Serbs into the nothingness, marked forever as the genocidal monsters. For us one leader ostracized us from western society, gave us the worst reputation possible and brought economic misery. And the worst part is that he and his lackeys to this day still have supporters, it's mindblowing how fecking stupid people are.
Part of the problem now is that even the people are supposed to be the alternative to Netanyahu talk (partly) in his language. Whether it's because they're afraid of losing voters if they show a different attitude towards the Palestenians (because Israelis have generally moved to the right in the last couple of decades) or this is how they truly feel or think, I do not know.
His rivals might not be a vast improvement, but as long he's at the helm, we're definitely going nowhere real fast.
People like them existed before, decades ago. Some of them got into politics, and even became members of the parliament - so they had some backing. But senior politicians looked at them in disdain and refused to have anything to do with them, so they have next to no power at all.
Netanyahu was one of those politicians. Now, though, he's opened them the door to the govenment and to power in order to survive.
So he's a huge part of it. As is the fractured nature of Israeli politics in recent years - all due to him. No wonder the Palestenian issue was put aside until October 7. Look at what happened in just the 4.5 years prior to that: Five rounds of election, a huge political upheaval, Netanyahu's trial, Covid, the judicial "reform". It's been nonstop. So who had the time to actually do anything meaningful?
From Al Jazeera
- Twelve people have drowned, and six have been killed in stampedes while trying to recover airdropped aid, according to Gaza’s Government Media Office.
- Eighteen people have been killed in an overnight Israeli bombing of a home in Rafah, with nine children among the victims.
- The UN rapporteur on Palestine says there are “reasonable grounds” to believe the threshold has been met for genocidal acts by Israel.
- Israeli minister Itamar Ben-Gvir says the army should enter Rafah in southern Gaza even without the US support.
- In a 24-hour period, 81 people have been killed and 93 wounded in Gaza, according to the enclave’s Health Ministry.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
The tweet makes absolutely zero sense and the US will join them when they are ready.Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
They're taking it well. Maybe they expected the US to join them in the invasion of Rafah ?
Don't Israeli politicians keep on saying that all they need to do is attack Rafah and the war will be done and war aims achieved?
I'm just trying to figure out than after almost half a year of fighting, how they're still having to strike in Gaza city and Khan Younis?
I'm just trying to figure out than after almost half a year of fighting, how they're still having to strike in Gaza city and Khan Younis?
What is to figure out?
I disagree. I doubt Israel invades Rafah at all, they've been threatening it for months now and still haven't.
It's a tactic. Its purpose - if there is one - remains a mystery.
it's in the favor of too many politicians that this "war" keeps going on forever.
with all the Hitleristic retors of a "final victory" against an incredibly less equipped enemy...
you guys won't believe how many cars and balconies have this "together we shall win" banner on them.
people think it's actually going somewhere. unfathomable.
@That_Bloke top post, as usual.
@Denis79 yes, this is what's happening right now. I haven't been abroad for a couple of years now, and right now I'm not going on a vacation if you paid me a million bucks. Don't want to face border-control with an Israeli passport anywhere in the world right now.
with all the Hitleristic retors of a "final victory" against an incredibly less equipped enemy...
you guys won't believe how many cars and balconies have this "together we shall win" banner on them.
people think it's actually going somewhere. unfathomable.
@That_Bloke top post, as usual.
@Denis79 yes, this is what's happening right now. I haven't been abroad for a couple of years now, and right now I'm not going on a vacation if you paid me a million bucks. Don't want to face border-control with an Israeli passport anywhere in the world right now.
I will give it a shot, but seeing as I'm looking at his supporters from the outside in, it's bound to be wildly inaccurate.
first of all, he's an elite.... what's the English word? rhetorican maybe? as in, standing in front of a camera and giving a speech.
His tone, his hand gestures, his facial expressions... It's probably more nuanced and powerful when he speaks Hebrew, but you can get a sense of it in his English performances as well (from some years ago. now he looks and acts like a shell of his already sociopathic-self).
I once had a landlord in her 50s saying to me that he is the sexiest, most masculine person in the country. There was a poll in Russia where many females said the same about Putin...
And he was always "Mr. Security" in the eyes of his admirers. The One who can understand how "The Arabs" think. the one who doesn't cave in or budge when "the world" is giving us shit [when was that exactly?].
now his fans don't know what to do because he has brought upon us the worst catastrophe this country has ever experienced,
so some of them acknowledge that he needs to be replaced, but he manages to make them hate his supposed rivals- from Likud or outside of it- even more than they criticise him.
people call it "The toxicity machine" in the Israeli media.
he apparently shares a Whatsapp group with his psycopath son Yair and some media consultants,
and together they- again, supposedly- name names of people who bother them and start targeting them and spreading venom about them...
in the former round of Elections it got to a point where Benny Gantz was shamed for once going to a psychotherapist.
You would see tons of bots or real people from his camp on Facebook making these posts viral, ridiculing him...
there are, of course, tons of other examples.
Other Israeli politicians don't act like that. They don't understand the power of the media, and in recent years, social media.
He is the sole participant in a game that brings him fantastic results.
He successfully does what Trump does with his followers.
this is my take, at least.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Not a good look.
Maybe they wouldn't do a ground invasion, we'll see. They will still keep bombing it every day which falls under Rafah being invaded by the way.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Community noted. Has been disgraced both diplomatically and on social media within 24 hours.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
You have to laugh
Now this is it. At this point
UN was always useless because of veto and we all knew it. Every time that someone said, here is when we can torch the UN, because China / Russia vetoed, or US vetoed blah blah.
Nah, it had been always like this, pathetic
But after a resolution of importance passes the eternal stalemate, now is non binding. This is a new low point and creates precedent to ignore any UN resolution. Just tear it down and build some social housing
UN was always useless because of veto and we all knew it. Every time that someone said, here is when we can torch the UN, because China / Russia vetoed, or US vetoed blah blah.
Nah, it had been always like this, pathetic
But after a resolution of importance passes the eternal stalemate, now is non binding. This is a new low point and creates precedent to ignore any UN resolution. Just tear it down and build some social housing
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Jesus! I mean, what is this?! Miller should’ve stayed an MSNBC talking head where he could say whatever he wants with no repercussions. This administration is embarrassing itself every day because of Israel. And it’s not even liked by Israelis. I reckon that 6-7 out of 10 Israelis would like Biden gone despite all of his support and defense of Israel.
Last edited:
First of all, my thanks to both of you and @ScholesyTheWise to keep posting in this thread despite some unfair criticism and posters giving you a rough time. I can't imagine how hard it is for you guys at the moment, but your contribution is highly appreciated and I personally wish that there were more Israeli posters of your caliber on this thread.
These guys are now in a position that allows them and their ideas to actually have a real impact. I mean, Smotrich is the minister of Finance and Ben Gvir is the minister of the National Security, both since 2022. Isn't the latter directly responsible of the administration of the settlements and their expansion? These are not peripheric positions in the government and that's something no democratic country, to my knowledge, has ever allowed to happen. Smotrich just announced a few days ago the seizing of 800 hectares in the Jordan Valley, the most fertile region of the West Bank. It's enormous for the site of the region and the biggest land theft since 1993, which somehow flew under the radar of the Western media, once again.
Do you think that once Netanyahu and these two are booted out, the 800 hectares will be given back? I personally highly doubt it.
My question is how this guy who's been a notorious opponent to a two state solution for decades (I personally think that it has a lot to do with the death of his brother during the Entebbe Raid in 1986), a far-right, corrupt troublemaker has been democratically elected from 1996 to this day. All the domestic protests against him, which were fully justified, never included the elephant in the room that is the Palestinian question. As far as I know, he's been successful because he was "Mr. Security", to borrow ScholesyTheWise's expression, and people were okay with it, no matter how dirty his methods were and what it implied.
On the other hand, he intensified the settlement policy, with most of the Israelis not even batting an eyelid. And it happened not only under his regime but also under every single previous one. Here's some interesting numbers:
- In 1948, there were about 2,800 Israeli settlers in the West Bank and East-Jerusalem.
- 1972 (Five years after the end of the Six Days War and the occupation of the West Bank): 10,531
- 1983 (Menahem Begin was really hard-working): 99,795
- 1993 (Yitzhak Shamir at his finest and two years before Yitzhak Rabin's assassination): 269,200
- 2004 (One year before Ariel Sharon decided to pull out from Gaza): 424,000
- 2010 (One year after Netanyahu came to power, again and stayed there ever since): 512,000
- 2018 (Netanyahu's on a roll): 645,800
- Today (Netanyahu's still on a roll): 733,000
I'm not even including the Golan Heights which should have been returned to Syria since 1967 and where 25,261 Israeli settlers are present as of 2019.
Source
In short, no matter which Party (either Labor, Likud or Kadima) was at the helm, the colonization of the West Bank and East-Jerusalem has never stopped since Israel declared its independence in 1948. On the contrary. Today it's ca. 8% of the Israeli population that exponentially grows each passing year, has no right whatsoever to be where they actually are, and every interest in a Palestinian State never seeing the light of the day. You just can't dismiss them as an Israeli leader and their voice will carry more and more weight in the future. That's a reality Israel will have to face, one day or another.
I do not deny it. They exist in every single country and I would never pin Israel down on this particular point. I do however disagree with their supposed lack of influence. Netanyahu opened the door because the ultra-right (we can't even speak of far-right anymore) carries enough weight to keep him in power.
These guys are now in a position that allows them and their ideas to actually have a real impact. I mean, Smotrich is the minister of Finance and Ben Gvir is the minister of the National Security, both since 2022. Isn't the latter directly responsible of the administration of the settlements and their expansion? These are not peripheric positions in the government and that's something no democratic country, to my knowledge, has ever allowed to happen. Smotrich just announced a few days ago the seizing of 800 hectares in the Jordan Valley, the most fertile region of the West Bank. It's enormous for the site of the region and the biggest land theft since 1993, which somehow flew under the radar of the Western media, once again.
Do you think that once Netanyahu and these two are booted out, the 800 hectares will be given back? I personally highly doubt it.
My question is how this guy who's been a notorious opponent to a two state solution for decades (I personally think that it has a lot to do with the death of his brother during the Entebbe Raid in 1986), a far-right, corrupt troublemaker has been democratically elected from 1996 to this day. All the domestic protests against him, which were fully justified, never included the elephant in the room that is the Palestinian question. As far as I know, he's been successful because he was "Mr. Security", to borrow ScholesyTheWise's expression, and people were okay with it, no matter how dirty his methods were and what it implied.
On the other hand, he intensified the settlement policy, with most of the Israelis not even batting an eyelid. And it happened not only under his regime but also under every single previous one. Here's some interesting numbers:
- In 1948, there were about 2,800 Israeli settlers in the West Bank and East-Jerusalem.
- 1972 (Five years after the end of the Six Days War and the occupation of the West Bank): 10,531
- 1983 (Menahem Begin was really hard-working): 99,795
- 1993 (Yitzhak Shamir at his finest and two years before Yitzhak Rabin's assassination): 269,200
- 2004 (One year before Ariel Sharon decided to pull out from Gaza): 424,000
- 2010 (One year after Netanyahu came to power, again and stayed there ever since): 512,000
- 2018 (Netanyahu's on a roll): 645,800
- Today (Netanyahu's still on a roll): 733,000
I'm not even including the Golan Heights which should have been returned to Syria since 1967 and where 25,261 Israeli settlers are present as of 2019.
Source
In short, no matter which Party (either Labor, Likud or Kadima) was at the helm, the colonization of the West Bank and East-Jerusalem has never stopped since Israel declared its independence in 1948. On the contrary. Today it's ca. 8% of the Israeli population that exponentially grows each passing year, has no right whatsoever to be where they actually are, and every interest in a Palestinian State never seeing the light of the day. You just can't dismiss them as an Israeli leader and their voice will carry more and more weight in the future. That's a reality Israel will have to face, one day or another.
Last edited:
It can't be more inaccurate than my own takes.
I get the Latin reference and think that the word you're looking for is "Orator". I also fully understand what you're getting at, as well as Netanyahu's dexterity at wielding his mother tongue. He's a "political animal" if I were to translate it from a French expression.
Yes, and it's not exclusive to the Israeli society. We currently live in a world where a lot of people are back to craving for a strong leader, preferably male. I'm also old enough to have witnessed the constant decline of the Israeli Labor Party since 1995 and the rise of the far-right. It happened in Israel about twenty years before it reached the West.
Every single time Israel didn't comply to a UN resolution. Netanyahu might've understood how the West, particularly the US, ticks and kept them dancing to his tune but I doubt that that he ever tried or succeeded to fully get the Arabs, at least not the Palestinians, despite his successes. It's artificial, based on sheer military superiority and nothing else. The Palestinians are just as patient, stubborn and resilient as the Jewish people are. There will never be peace unless the two peoples agree to recognize each other.
Lack of alternative, huh? All in all, I get the feeling that these are issues the Western democracies are confronted with, up to eleven, which is quite frightening.
They're trailing at the moment but they will adapt. Your analogy with Trump is more than appropriate in my opinion, and I'd say that Trump took some inspiration from Netanyahu's playbook rather than the other way around.
Do you really think that Gantz could unlock the situation and push for a peaceful, political settlement? Is there any hope of Israeli politicians still believing in it? I've seen an interview of Ehud Olmert a few months ago, who was in favor, including dismantling the illegal settlements by force.
These questions can be adressed to @Amir as well.
Last edited:
My bad. I wrote that 'they have no power' when I meant 'they had no power' - meaning years and decades ago. They obviously do now.
I've met quite a few of Serbs while I was studying architecture in Weimar (Germany). They were mostly music students at the Franz-Liszt-Hochschule but also engineers, architects and media designers.
From my personal experience, they belonged to the funniest, most open-minded and welcoming people I've ever known. Especially for someone like me who came from a radically different background. The first person who helped me in my first months was an accordionist named Daliborka. I've had barrels of laughs with her and her friends. I loved the Serbian humor and their way of having fun. I can't remember a dull moment in their company. The names, faces and smiles of the band are still vivid in my memory almost twenty years later, even if I lost contact with most of them.
For what it's worth, not everyone thinks of you as genocidal monsters. It does not only apply to me, but to many Germans, French, Chinese, Japanese, Italians, Spaniards, Croatians, Estonians... In short anyone who came into real contact with your people and shared a beer, or a cup of tea.
Last edited:
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Give up on Germany. They're a lost cause.
I Had a Serbian flatmate when I lived in Berlin and he was great. I never thought about the war in the 90's.
might have been different if there was a war waging over there as we lived together.
but anyway, I too don't think that young Serbians are thought of as monsters in today's world.
Thank you it does mean a lot. My work takes me all over Europe and generally people understand that not all of us are the same but I have had border controls literally spit in my passport but I do understand the anger.
I'll take Gantz over Netanyahu every day of the week, but I don't see him as some sort of game changer. He's the anti-Netanyahu as he's clean and actually has Israel's best interest at heart. He's not, however, some strong and determinted leader who will make the hardest decisions. Plus, even if he's elected and forms a govenment, he won't have a coalition that will allow him to take such steps.
I don't see much hope for change in the current generation of politicians. Olmert is irrelevant (unfortunately, as I think he was a good PM with good intentions) since his problems with the law and eventual conviction and jail time. No politician of any relevance dares to offer any radical change in Israel's treatment and direction when it comes to the Palestenians. Some of them may actually THINK differently from what they are saying, because they fear the ramifications of sounding like a lefty in a country that has gone more and more to the right in recent decades. But again, even if they are elected and want to go with their hearts, they won't have a govenment that will allow them to do so.
Out of 120 members of the Knesset currently, a vast majority is just different shades of right. It's less Left and Right and More Pro-Netanyahu and Anti-Netanyahu.
There's a huge difference between what the world sees when it looks at Israel and what is actually happening in Israel on a day-to-day basis.
When the world talks about Israel, it normally involves the Palestenians, the settlements, etc. It's so very different here. The settlements and their ramifications are rarely mentioned. I'm probably on the side of the more inform ones because I work for Haaretz so I regularly read the newspaper and website - which deal with that issue a lot - but for most Israelis, it's probably a lot different. And that's also why it never manifested itself in all the protests in recent years. For Israelis, the Palestenians were barely noticable (as long as there wasn't much terror - which is their only way to stand out).
I've mentioned it before, but Netanyahu was elected after the Oslo accords were signed - and on the back of the big wave of terror attacks by Hamas in the 90s. It made it easy for Netanyahu to sell himself as the man who will bring security to Israelis and he's been selling himself like that for years. And generally, during his tenures, there was probably less terror. Did he have some sort of real long term solution? No. He probably didn't have much of a short term solution either - he was just lucky to have some quieter years. But it was enough. And between his PR machine which was mentioned here, his willingness to put politics ahead of everything else in a way no one else would - even if it means causing damage to Israel short and long term - and Israelis moving more and more to the right since the mid 90s, it was enough to keep him in power.
Sparkasse doesn't equal Germany.