Israel - Palestine Discussion

Arruda

Love is in the air, everywhere I look around
Joined
Apr 8, 2009
Messages
12,285
Location
Azores
Supports
Porto
It's depressing. One feels so powerless watching the images.
 

Sultan

Admin
Staff
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
46,263
Location
Redcafe
Abhorrent abuse of power and violation of international law. Terrorists!
 

Paxi

Dagestani MMA Boiled Egg Expert
Joined
Mar 4, 2017
Messages
23,058
Netanyahu has encouraged more countries to move embassies to Jerusalem, claiming it will promote peace.

It's a joke really.
 

Zlatattack

Full Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2017
Messages
6,008
This is going to be controversial... but... I think this protest is a stupid idea. They're marching at the border, knowing full well the Israeli's will kill them and that anyone who has the power to do anything about it will turn their back on them and let the Israeli's kill Palestinians for sport.

I support their right to protest, I support their cause, I condemn everything Israel is doing, I don't think Israel has a right to exist UNTIL the Palestinian people get a state they agree too.

However, having said all that, I think the current protest, is just stupid.
 

Drifter

American
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
64,902
They are desperate and feel they have nothing left to live for.
 

2cents

Historiographer, and obtainer of rare antiquities
Scout
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
12,554
What a clusteruck of a decision by the orange buffoon and his son-in-law.
The protests would be happening anyway, this isn't directly related to the embassy thing, it's to mark 70 years since the Nakba/Israeli Declaration of Independence.
 
Last edited:

Revan

Assumptionman
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
44,394
Location
Munich
Agree completely. Hamas must be punished for this incitement.
Israel has the right to defend itself, but do you think that using snipers is a proportional force to Hamas-lead Palestinians throwing rocks on Israeli soldiers. I mean, if they threw rockets or shot guns, it can be justified, but rocks...come on.
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
115,492
Location
Los Angeles
Israel has the right to defend itself, but do you think that using snipers is a proportional force to Hamas-lead Palestinians throwing rocks on Israeli soldiers. I mean, if they threw rockets or shot guns, it can be justified, but rocks...come on.
What would you propose ? The Israelis throwing rocks back at them ?
 

Paxi

Dagestani MMA Boiled Egg Expert
Joined
Mar 4, 2017
Messages
23,058
What would you propose ? The Israelis throwing rocks back at them ?
Use rubber rounds, tear gas etc.

Definitely not popping off high calibre rounds.
 

2cents

Historiographer, and obtainer of rare antiquities
Scout
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
12,554
This is going to be controversial... but... I think this protest is a stupid idea. They're marching at the border, knowing full well the Israeli's will kill them and that anyone who has the power to do anything about it will turn their back on them and let the Israeli's kill Palestinians for sport.

I support their right to protest, I support their cause, I condemn everything Israel is doing, I don't think Israel has a right to exist UNTIL the Palestinian people get a state they agree too.

However, having said all that, I think the current protest, is just stupid.
I disagree, I think it's a pretty smart move under the circumstances. Given everything else going on in the region Palestinians need to find some way to keep their cause in the spotlight, and this is a relatively low cost, high profile means of doing so. I'm surprised it took so long after the Land Day protests in 2011 for them to return to this type of protest, but I think we'll see more stuff like it in the future, probably with West Bank Palestinians and perhaps Palestinians in southern Lebanon joining in and marching on their own respective boundaries.

If they could shake off Hamas's control over the protests there are some ways they could be even more effective in future, hopefully we see that happen.
 

villain

Hates Beyoncé
Joined
Apr 22, 2014
Messages
12,914
I wish I knew more about the conflict in this region to actually provide more to the debate.

Can't help but feel absolute empathy for the Palestinians though :(
 

Cheesy

Bread with dipping sauce
Scout
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Messages
36,122
What would you propose ? The Israelis throwing rocks back at them ?
Israel are supposed to be an advanced and modern democratic state. They shouldn't be murdering civilians, many of whom will be innocent and not involved at all. Especially when they've forcibly taken territory from the civilians of the very country they're attacking. Obviously use of force is justifiable when necessary but time and time again Israel haven't behaved as you'd expect a decent democratic state to do.
 

Fearless

Mighty Mouse
Joined
Apr 24, 2003
Messages
4,073
Location
Pink Torpedo club
I wish I knew more about the conflict in this region to actually provide more to the debate.

Can't help but feel absolute empathy for the Palestinians though :(
Thats because you don't know enough about the conflict. Hamas are banking on good people such as yourself to buy into their victim narrative.
 

Cheesy

Bread with dipping sauce
Scout
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Messages
36,122
:lol::lol:
Why nobody complains about Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran occupation of Kurds territory?
People regularly do. There was plenty of attention given to the Kurdistan referendum in Iraq.
 

Fearless

Mighty Mouse
Joined
Apr 24, 2003
Messages
4,073
Location
Pink Torpedo club
Israel are supposed to be an advanced and modern democratic state. They shouldn't be murdering civilians, many of whom will be innocent and not involved at all. Especially when they've forcibly taken territory from the civilians of the very country they're attacking. Obviously use of force is justifiable when necessary but time and time again Israel haven't behaved as you'd expect a decent democratic state to do.
The please give us an example of another democratic state thats had the same threats so we can come to a fair conclusion.
 

Mr H

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2014
Messages
3,327
The please give us an example of another democratic state thats had the same threats so we can come to a fair conclusion.
The rock that were thrown on the Israeli snipers on their towers were indeed, a big threat. in all your comments, i have seen no sense but also no compassion at all.
 

Mr H

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2014
Messages
3,327
Israel has the right to defend itself, but do you think that using snipers is a proportional force to Hamas-lead Palestinians throwing rocks on Israeli soldiers. I mean, if they threw rockets or shot guns, it can be justified, but rocks...come on.
What would you propose ? The Israelis throwing rocks back at them ?
Well, the BBC was saying that the protest were peacefull in the begining before the attack. and even then, you don't shoot Civilians, you just don't do that.
 

Nedved

Full Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
1,582
What would you propose ? The Israelis throwing rocks back at them ?
In most civilized countries, the police/military do not choose between throwing rocks at or killing 50 people. There’s a middle ground, which is called good police work.
 

Cheesy

Bread with dipping sauce
Scout
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Messages
36,122
The please give us an example of another democratic state thats had the same threats so we can come to a fair conclusion.
Plenty of states have had widespread protests and violence without any civilian deaths caused directly by the military or police, because as has been stated the first solution shouldn't be to just kill or seriously injure the people protesting. And there have been plenty of cases contrarily where modern democratic states have conducted themselves horrendously - often they've been condemned for it, but that shouldn't make what Israel are doing okay.

Again, the more pertinent problem is that I'm not really sure what Israel are hoping to achieve out of any of this in the long-term. These incidents will only further drive Palestinians seeing their families and friends killed to greater extremes. Hamas are awful, but they're exactly what happens when people are oppressed and seek desperate measures when it comes to fighting back.
 

Fearless

Mighty Mouse
Joined
Apr 24, 2003
Messages
4,073
Location
Pink Torpedo club
Plenty of states have had widespread protests and violence without any civilian deaths caused directly by the military or police, because as has been stated the first solution shouldn't be to just kill or seriously injure the people protesting. And there have been plenty of cases contrarily where modern democratic states have conducted themselves horrendously - often they've been condemned for it, but that shouldn't make what Israel are doing okay.

Again, the more pertinent problem is that I'm not really sure what Israel are hoping to achieve out of any of this in the long-term. These incidents will only further drive Palestinians seeing their families and friends killed to greater extremes. Hamas are awful, but they're exactly what happens when people are oppressed and seek desperate measures when it comes to fighting back.
But oppressed by whom? Look, I respect your posts and perspective, but let me reassure you I take NO pleasure in seeing any innocents die.

Gaza could have/should have been in a far better place by know had Hamas not killed the Fatah officials it was handed over too. It costs million of dollars to build those attack tunnels (twice in network size to the Viet Cong), money that the palestinian people should have enjoyed. It really didn't have to be this way.
 

VeevaVee

despite the protests, wears Ugg boots
Scout
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
43,588
Location
Manchester
Messed up.
What's with that guy doing the groovy dance before launching a stone though? It's different
 

esmufc07

Cried while watching Titanic
Scout
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
44,282
But oppressed by whom? Look, I respect your posts and perspective, but let me reassure you I take NO pleasure in seeing any innocents die.

Gaza could have/should have been in a far better place by know had Hamas not killed the Fatah officials it was handed over too. It costs million of dollars to build those attack tunnels (twice in network size to the Viet Cong), money that the palestinian people should have enjoyed. It really didn't have to be this way.
An odd justification of Israeli snipers killing innocent protesters with rocks and stones.
 

Cheesy

Bread with dipping sauce
Scout
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Messages
36,122
But oppressed by whom? Look, I respect your posts and perspective, but let me reassure you I take NO pleasure in seeing any innocents die.

Gaza could have/should have been in a far better place by know had Hamas not killed the Fatah officials it was handed over too. It costs million of dollars to build those attack tunnels, money that the palestinian people should have enjoyed. It really didn't have to be this way.
Of course not - I get that there are a lot of legitimate concerns Israelis have in regards to Palestine, and that many of them would be happy to see a two-state solution. And as someone who's sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians I also recognise that it's not a clear-cut issue of good vs bad.

But I do think irrespective of what has happened inside Palestine there's also got to be a level of recognition that Israel consistently doing things like building illegal settlements or murdering Palestinian civilians isn't going to help solve anything. And will only continue to drive ordinary Palestinians to extreme groups like Hamas.