Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Raoul

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....Face to face Israeli - Palestinian peace talks to resume on September 2nd in Washington.

Israeli-Palestinian peace talks: Why are they resuming now? - CSMonitor.com

Israelis and Palestinians will resume direct peace talks in Washington on Sept. 2, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton announced Friday.

The goal of the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations will be to wrap up “final status” issues and produce an agreement leading to two sovereign states living side by side in peace, US officials said.

“Past efforts at peace that did not succeed cannot deter us from trying again, because the cause is noble and just and right for all concerned,” said George Mitchell, US special Middle East peace envoy.

But why now? After all, a restart of direct contact between these bitter adversaries has been a primary foreign-policy goal of the Obama administration since the day it took office. What did it take to get Israeli and Palestinian leaders to agree once again to sit down at the same table?

The short answer may be a deadline. The Israeli government’s partial freeze on settlement construction in the West Bank is set to expire on Sept. 26. The White House has pushed hard to get talks going before this date.

The Israeli right is pressing hard to resume larger-scale settlement building. Palestinians may well react to such a development with fury. Unless peace talks are already moving forward by late September, uproar over settlements might well ensure they would not resume for a long, long time.

“We are well aware that there remains mistrust between the parties, a residue of hostility developed over many decades of conflict,” Mr. Mitchell said.

The longer answer as to why talks are resuming is more complicated, says Anthony Cordesman (CSIS), holder of the Arleigh Burke Chair in Strategy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. Regional allies are subtly pushing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas toward the table – and Mr. Abbas needs to demonstrate that he is more important than Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip. Israel has toned down its rhetoric in recent weeks. Mitchell, a veteran of tough peace talks in Northern Ireland, is working as hard as he can to get the Middle East parties started.

“It’s a combination of all these factors,” Mr. Cordesman says.

At issue in the talks will be some of the toughest questions in modern diplomacy. They include the borders of a Palestinian state, the status of Jerusalem, the status of settlements, and the rights of Palestinian refugees.

It’s unlikely any of these would be wrapped up quickly. But it’s possible that talks could make progress nonetheless.

Actual talking would be a good start. Given the history of distrust between the parties, active and ongoing dialogue would be a symbol that things are going well, says Cordesman of CSIS.

Other good signs would include demonstrations of flexibility by either side, overt encouragement by Saudi Arabia or other regional Palestinian allies, and the proffering by the United States of bridge proposals intended to help the parties reach agreement.

“If the US is confident enough to put forth proposals, it means both sides will have probably accepted them, at least in part,” Cordesman says.

Under the agreement struck by the US, President Obama will hold his own, separate discussions with Abbas and Israeli Prime Minster Benjamin Netanyahu on Sept. 1. Then, the White House will host a dinner for the visitors.

The next day, Secretary Clinton will bring Abbas and Mr. Netanyahu together for the first formal talks since December 2008. At that point, the parties themselves will decide whether any more meetings will be held, and where.

Any further talks are likely to be held in the region, perhaps in Egypt. Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak and Jordan’s King Abdullah II will attend the September meetings in the US, along with former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, the special representative of the “Quartet” of nations and organizations pushing Middle East peace – the US, the United Nations, the European Union, and Russia.
 

Neutral

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Are we feeling optimistic? I'm kind of glad, they are at least planning to talk. Just as a side point, really is a sad state of affairs, that there are bilateral/trilateral/quartets, yet none of these include the surrounding Arab states( I know why they aren't there...but still).

Disgraceful the lot of them.
 

mjs020294

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I will reserve judgment knowing how the other three hundred and seventeen peace talks went.
 

Team Brian GB

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Palestine will want East Jerusalem, Israel won't allow that, talks end.
 

Kaos

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Palestine will want East Jerusalem, Israel won't allow that, talks end.
I'd also assume that no more illegal settlements will also be high on the agenda, and we all know Israel's stance on that, so it just adds to the complications.
 

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Abbas and the whole Palestinian authority is a big joke. Israel wins this phase hands down. No freezing of settlements, told Obama and the Palestinians to feck off , and then asked (ordered) for the talks to resume without preconditions.

Nothing will come out esp. that Abbas doesn't represent all the Palestinians whether he likes it or not.
 

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Abbas is a pathetic tool, him and his whole party of clowns. Nothing good will ever come for the Palestinians with him and his mugs in charge.
 

holyland red

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holyland red

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You mean severing the Negev and Sinai pennisula from the rest of Israel?

Nah, ain't gonna happen
A "safe passage" or corridor between the WB and Gaza has been agreed upon years ago to the best of my knowledge, before the Oslo process came to a halt.

If the will for peace is there creative solutions can be reached. Unfortunately, I am not sure that is the case.
 

holyland red

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sammsky1

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Open question: Does Blair help, hinder or actually have zero impact in this process under his international 'peace making' role?

What does he actually do in his job and does it justify the very expensive hotels rooms that he resides in in Tel Aviv?
 

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^ is a good question.

As far as I recall, his biggest contribution in the whole Flotilla episode was that "this is not a good situation".
 

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The "Peace Process" is Still Going Nowhere | Stephen M. Walt

If you think today's announcement that the Israelis and Palestinians are going to resume "direct talks" is a significant breakthrough, you haven't been paying attention for the past two decades (at least). I wish I could be more optimistic about this latest development, but I see little evidence that a meaningful deal is in the offing.

Why do I say this? Three reasons.

1. There is no sign that the Palestinians are willing to accept less than a viable, territorially contiguous state in the West Bank (and eventually, Gaza), including a capital in East Jerusalem and some sort of political formula (i.e., fig-leaf) on the refugee issue. By the way, this outcome supposedly what the Clinton and Bush adminstrations favored, and what Obama supposedly supports as well.

2. There is no sign that Israel's government is willing to accept anything more than a symbolic Palestinian "state" consisting of a set of disconnected Bantustans, with Israel in full control of the borders, air space, water supplies, electromagnetic spectrum. etc. Prime Minister Netanyahu has made it clear that this is what he means by a "two-state solution," and he has repeatedly declared that Israel intends to keep all of Jerusalem and maybe a long-term military presence in the Jordan River valley. There are now roughly 500,000 Israeli Jews living outside the 1967 borders, and it is hard to imagine any Israeli government evacuating a significant fraction of them. Even if Netanyahu wanted to be more forthcoming, his coalition wouldn't let him make any meaningful concessions. And while the talks drag on, the illegal settlements will continue to expand.

3. There is no sign that the U.S. government is willing to put meaningful pressure on Israel. We're clearly willing to twist Mahmoud Abbas' arm to the breaking point (which is why he's agreed to talks, even as Israel continues to nibble away at the territory of the future Palestinian state), but Obama and his Middle East team have long since abandoned any pretense of bringing even modest pressure to bear on Netanyahu. Absent that, why should anyone expect Bibi to change his position?

So don't fall for the hype that this announcement constitutes some sort of meaningful advance in the "peace process." George Mitchell and his team probably believe they are getting somewhere, but they are either deluding themselves, trying to fool us, or trying to hoodwink other Arab states into believing that Obama meant what he said in Cairo. At this point, I rather doubt that anyone is buying, and the only thing that will convince onlookers that U.S. policy has changed will be tangible results. Another round of inconclusive "talks" will just reinforce the growing perception that the United States cannot deliver.

The one item in all this that does give me pause is the accompanying statement by the Middle East Quartet (the United States, Russia, the EU and the U.N.), which appears at first glance to have some modest teeth in it. Among other things, it calls explicitly for "a settlement, negotiated between the parties, that ends the occupation which began in 1967 and results in the emergence of an independent, democratic, and viable Palestinian state living side by side in peace and security with Israel and its other neighbors." It also says these talks can be completed within one year. Sounds promising, but the Quartet has issued similar proclamations before (notably the 2003 "Roadmap"), and these efforts led precisely nowhere. So maybe there's a ray of hope in there somewhere, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Meanwhile, both Democrats and Republicans here in the United States will continue to make pious statements about their commitment to a two-state solution, even as it fades further and further into the realm of impossibility. Barring a miracle, we will eventually have to recognize that "two-states for two peoples" has become a pipe-dream. At that point, U.S. leaders will face a very awkward choice: they can support a democratic Israel where Jews and Arabs have equal political rights (i.e., a one-state democracy similar to the United States, where discrimination on the basis of religion or ethnicity is taboo), or they can support an apartheid state whose basic institutions are fundamentally at odds with core American values.

Equally important, an apartheid Israel will face growing international censure, and as both former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and current Defense Minister Ehud Barak have warned, such an outcome would place Israel's own long-term future in doubt. If that happens, all those staunch "friends of Israel" who have hamstrung U.S. diplomacy for decades can explain to their grandchildren how they let that happen.

As for the Obama administration itself, I have only one comment. If you think I'm being too gloomy, then do the world a favor and prove me wrong. If you do, I'll be the first to admit it.
 

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Just an old interview with Bibi, and his thinking regarding the peace process and how he plans to make things work

YouTube - Netanyahu: America is Easy to Push Around (English Subtitles)

I'm sure Holyland and Cuntastine have already seen it.

Link to article
Israeli PM Netanyahu's unguarded talk on video: How I destroyed the Oslo Accords, and how easily Americans are manipulated | Crooks and Liars

Really interesting stuff

Little taste

First he says that the plan for the Palestinians is to:

hit them hard. Not just one hit... but many painful [hits], so that the price will be unbearable. The price is not unbearable, now. A total assault on the Palestinian Authority. To bring them to a state of panic that everything is collapsing ... fear that everything will collapse... this is what we'll bring them to...

The woman Netanyahu is speaking to wonders if the world won't object to what Israel is doing to the occupied Palestinians (she uses the word occupiers herself. He says the world will say nothing, just that Israel is defending itself. As for the US...

“I know what America is. America is a thing that can be easily moved, moved in the right direction... Let's suppose that they [the Americans] will say something [i.e. to us Israelis] ... so they say it...” [i.e. so what?]

He then moves on to deal with the Oslo Accords. Under Oslo, Israel was to give back land in three phases. However, there was a loophole: if there were settlements or military bases, that land didn't have to be given back. So the question is, who defines what is a settlement or military site?

I received a letter – to me and to Arafat, at the same time ... which said that Israel, and only Israel, would be the one to define what those are, the location of those military sites and their size. Now, they did not want to give me that letter, so I did not give the Hebron agreement. I stopped the government meeting, I said: "I'm not signing." Only when the letter came, in the course of the meeting, to me and to Arafat, only then did I sign the Hebron agreement, or rather, ratify it. It had already been signed. Why does this matter? Because at that moment I actually stopped the Oslo accord.

The woman talking to Netanyahu also states that Oslo meant Israel's suicide—Israel's destruction. And Netanyahu seems to agree.
I'm sure Holyland can help us with any incorrect translations, because my Hebrew isn't quite up to scratch.

I of course know the more important phrases

"Please don't shoot", "Please don't kill me" etc etc :D
נא לא להרוג אותי
בבקשה אל תירה בי

Acknowledgments: You know who you are mate...
 

holyland red

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Just an old interview with Bibi, and his thinking regarding the peace process and how he plans to make things work

YouTube - Netanyahu: America is Easy to Push Around (English Subtitles)

I'm sure Holyland and Cuntastine have already seen it.

Link to article
Israeli PM Netanyahu's unguarded talk on video: How I destroyed the Oslo Accords, and how easily Americans are manipulated | Crooks and Liars

Really interesting stuff

Little taste



I'm sure Holyland can help us with any incorrect translations, because my Hebrew isn't quite up to scratch.

I of course know the more important phrases

"Please don't shoot", "Please don't kill me" etc etc :D
נא לא להרוג אותי
בבקשה אל תירה בי

Acknowledgments: You know who you are mate...
I honestly don't know what you're on about. I don't know how good your Hebrew or Arabic skills, but here's something in English:

Sha'ath: PA will never recognize Israel as Jewish - Israel News, Ynetnews

In light of this I'd say the most reasonable Israeli policy would be handing feck all to the Palestinians.
 

Fearless

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Are we feeling optimistic? I'm kind of glad, they are at least planning to talk. Just as a side point, really is a sad state of affairs, that there are bilateral/trilateral/quartets, yet none of these include the surrounding Arab states( I know why they aren't there...but still).

Disgraceful the lot of them.
Agree one million percent on this one - seeing as the Arab states caused this mess.
 

Neutral

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Been sort of busy the past week, became an uncle! So have only caught headlines, no details.

I see that the partial moratorium on the settlement constructions has lapsed, Palestinians are going ape shit, and the Israelis are pretending like they care.

Obama is thinking who is the next US president that will have to deal with this shit...

Another wasted round of talks?
 

Fearless

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What happens when a fly falls into a coffee cup?

The Italian - throws the cup, breaks it, and walks away in a fit of rage.

The German - carefully washes the cup, sterilizes it and makes a new cup of coffee.

The Frenchman - takes out the fly, and drinks the coffee.

The Chinese - eats the fly and throws away the coffee.

The Russian - Drinks the coffee with the fly, since it was extra with no charge.

The Israeli - sells the coffee to the Frenchman, the fly to the Chinese, drinks tea and uses the extra money to invent a device that prevents flies from falling into coffee.

The Palestinian - blames the Israeli for the fly falling in his coffee, protests the act of aggression to the UN, takes a loan from the European Union to buy a new cup of coffee, uses the money to purchase explosives and then blows up the coffee house where the Italian, the Frenchman, the Chinese, the German and the Russian are all trying to explain to the Israeli that he should give away his cup of tea to the Palestinian.
 

Neutral

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What happens when a fly falls into a coffee cup?

The Italian - throws the cup, breaks it, and walks away in a fit of rage.

The German - carefully washes the cup, sterilizes it and makes a new cup of coffee.

The Frenchman - takes out the fly, and drinks the coffee.

The Chinese - eats the fly and throws away the coffee.

The Russian - Drinks the coffee with the fly, since it was extra with no charge.

The Israeli - sells the coffee to the Frenchman, the fly to the Chinese, drinks tea and uses the extra money to invent a device that prevents flies from falling into coffee.

The Palestinian - blames the Israeli for the fly falling in his coffee, protests the act of aggression to the UN, takes a loan from the European Union to buy a new cup of coffee, uses the money to purchase explosives and then blows up the coffee house where the Italian, the Frenchman, the Chinese, the German and the Russian are all trying to explain to the Israeli that he should give away his cup of tea to the Palestinian.
Not enough open hate in this post, the insult and belittling is good, but this is quite mundane for you Cuntastine.
 

Dumbstar

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What happens when a fly falls into a coffee cup?

The Italian - throws the cup, breaks it, and walks away in a fit of rage.

The German - carefully washes the cup, sterilizes it and makes a new cup of coffee.

The Frenchman - takes out the fly, and drinks the coffee.

The Chinese - eats the fly and throws away the coffee.

The Russian - Drinks the coffee with the fly, since it was extra with no charge.

The Israeli - sells the coffee to the Frenchman, the fly to the Chinese, drinks tea and uses the extra money to invent a device that prevents flies from falling into coffee.

The Palestinian - blames the Israeli for the fly falling in his coffee, protests the act of aggression to the UN, takes a loan from the European Union to buy a new cup of coffee, uses the money to purchase explosives and then blows up the coffee house where the Italian, the Frenchman, the Chinese, the German and the Russian are all trying to explain to the Israeli that he should give away his cup of tea to the Palestinian.
:confused: Where's the bit about Israel taking over Starbucks as their own 'heritage' then knocking down the surrounding shops to expand?
 

Nistelrooy10

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Just an old interview with Bibi, and his thinking regarding the peace process and how he plans to make things work

YouTube - Netanyahu: America is Easy to Push Around (English Subtitles)

I'm sure Holyland and Cuntastine have already seen it.

Link to article
Israeli PM Netanyahu's unguarded talk on video: How I destroyed the Oslo Accords, and how easily Americans are manipulated | Crooks and Liars

Really interesting stuff

Little taste



I'm sure Holyland can help us with any incorrect translations, because my Hebrew isn't quite up to scratch.

I of course know the more important phrases

"Please don't shoot", "Please don't kill me" etc etc :D
נא לא להרוג אותי
בבקשה אל תירה בי

Acknowledgments: You know who you are mate...

What a disgusting man. Anybody can see that it's not in israel's interest to have peace, and they are destroying the process.
 

Nistelrooy10

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:confused: Where's the bit about Israel taking over Starbucks as their own 'heritage' then knocking down the surrounding shops to expand?
2 trillion years ago, the local coffee hut and distribution caves belonged to the nation of israel. Now they return to reclaim the land.