Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Who is that Freund motherfecker? Arseholes like him on either side are why peace never goes any where.

 

[Neutral]

Be careful Jason F.

The truth has very few friends round here.

But it has you, and I've realized, it's about the quality of your friends, not the quantity.

Shalom.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Really? the impression I get from the news is that the Israel is just minding its own business and protecting itself while Palestine goes about bombing innocent Israelis.

That is partly true. In reality neither side is innoccent. Both sides have the type of leaders who don't really want peace. Determined to turn peace talks into peace jokes.
Sacrificing the lives and future's of many of their citizens as a result.

 

[Fearless]

That is partly true. In reality neither side is innoccent. Both sides have the type of leaders who don't really want peace. Determined to turn peace talks into peace jokes.
Sacrificing the lives and future's of many of their citizens as a result.

The peace talks from the Israeli publics perception have become a joke, a side show, like a crappy burger bar that nobody buys from. They are so last year.

The public no longer care at all. They don't trust their own leaders, let alone there enemies and certainly have been burned to often to trust anything ever.

 

[surf]

More trouble looms in the garden of Eden:

Israel's proposed 'Jewish oath' for new citizens sparks racism row

Loyalty pledge criticised as 'fascist' and an affront to country's Palestinian citizens, who make up 20% of population

******* Sherwood in Jerusalem
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 10 October 2010 18.20 BST

The Israeli cabinet today approved a bill requiring new non-Jewish citizens to swear an oath of allegiance to Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state", in a move that has brought accusations of discrimination against Israel's Arab minority. One dissenting cabinet minister referred to a "whiff of fascism".

The bill, originally promoted by the rightwing foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, who has made the issue of loyalty a hallmark of his political career, was passed by a big majority despite the opposition of Labour party members.

The loyalty oath will be required of non-Jews seeking to become Israeli citizens, mainly affecting Palestinians from the West Bank who marry Palestinian citizens of Israel.

The latter, who make up 20% of Israel's population, have vigorously criticised the proposal – which needs approval from the Knesset before becoming law – as provocative and racist. It has also drawn protests from Israeli Jews, including those in the cabinet.

Isaac Herzog, the social affairs minister, told Israel's army radio: "There is a whiff of fascism on the margins of Israeli society. The overall picture is very disturbing and threatens the democratic character of the state of Israel. "There have been a tsunami of measures that limit rights ... We will pay a heavy price for this."

Lieberman campaigned in last year's election for a loyalty oath to be required of all existing Palestinian citizens of Israel. However the bill put to the vote today drew back from that, applying only to future citizens. "I think this is an important step forward. Obviously this is not the end of the issue of loyalty in return for citizenship, but this is a highly important step," Lieberman said.

At the start of the cabinet meeting, the prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, said: "The state of Israel is the national state of the Jewish people and is a democratic state in which all its citizens – Jewish and non-Jewish – enjoy full equal rights ... Whoever wants to join us, has to recognise us."

It was suggested that Netanyahu backed the bill as a quid pro quo for support from rightwing parties within his coalition government should he bow to US pressure to extend the freeze on settlement construction. The moratorium, which expired two weeks ago, is threatening to scupper talks on a peace deal with the Palestinians.

Ahmed Tibi, an Israeli-Arab member of the Knesset, condemned the cabinet's decision. "The government of Israel has become subservient to Yisrael Beiteinu [Lieberman's party] and its fascist doctrine," he said. "No other state in the world would force its citizens or those seeking citizenship to pledge allegiance to an ideology."

The speaker of the Knesset, Reuven Rivlin, also criticised the proposal. "This law will not assist us as a society and a state," he said. "On the contrary, it could arm our enemies and opponents in the world in an effort to emphasise the trend for separatism or even racism within Israel."

Likud cabinet members Dan Meridor, Benny Begin and Michael Eitan opposed the bill along with Labour ministers.

Writing in today's Haaretz, liberal commentator Gideon Levy said: "Remember this day. It's the day Israel changes its character ... From now on, we will be living in a new, officially approved, ethnocratic, theocratic, nationalistic and racist country."

Israel proposes Jewish state loyalty oath for new citizens | World news | The Guardian

 

[Neutral]

not sure what has changed? Israel is a zionist entity, it is all about being Jewish, and a homeland for Jews...

This is probably what Bibi has to promise for another round of temporary freeze on new settlements or something similar.

 

[holyland red]

not sure what has changed? Israel is a zionist entity, it is all about being Jewish, and a homeland for Jews...

You're right about the Jewish nature of Israel, but this law discriminates against non-Jews unnecessarily and therefore needs to be modified. Jews and non-Jews alike should take the same oath when granted citizenship.

anyway, I can't see how this is aimed at Israeli Arabs as they are already Israeli citizens.

This is probably what Bibi has to promise for another round of temporary freeze on new settlements or something similar.

You're absolutely right. This is a political spin on Bibi's behalf with little significance. Little chance for this new "law" to pass the supreme court hurdle without necessary alterations, so even though I understand the Guardian's impatience with the running the story I think they could just as well allocate a few inches to human rights abuse elsewhere.

Didn't bother reading the whole Guardian story, but could not avoid Gideon Levy's comment at the end. The loon has been saying this about Israel for ages now which doesn't mix with the dramatic "Remember this day" he begins with.

 

[Jason F]

That is partly true. In reality neither side is innoccent. Both sides have the type of leaders who don't really want peace. Determined to turn peace talks into peace jokes.
Sacrificing the lives and future's of many of their citizens as a result.

I dont doubt that at all, as they always say...take each sides story and the truth most likely lies somewhere in the middle.

When you have leaders that dont want peace and will take any reason for further bloodshed you will never get anywhere except into a deeper hole than where you were at the beginning.

The thing that just surprised me was how slanted the media coverage had been on the side of Israel, like someone said, its like they were a shining light and it was something I hadnt really even questioned until now due to the information I guess I had been fed. It seems many of the atrocities Israel had committed just disappeared from history whereas any Palestinian uprising or attack is major news.

 

[Jason F]

Be careful Jason F.

The truth has very few friends round here.

Hmm, noted.

I mean I am not trying to put any one view across as the right one because I dont know that there even is one but it is interesting to think about how things are given a certain political spin.

 

[holyland red]

It seems many of the atrocities Israel had committed just disappeared from history whereas any Palestinian uprising or attack is major news.

Care to elaborate? I doubt many of the "atrocities" escaped the media or the attention of CE enthusiasts. FFS, some events even make a comeback several years after originally being discussed for a second round of condemnations.

 

[Jason F]

Care to elaborate? I doubt many of the "atrocities" escaped the media or the attention of CE enthusiasts. FFS, some events even make a comeback several years after originally being discussed for a second round of condemnations.

I don't mean that quite as it sounded. Indeed your right, very little would escape the media these days. My point is more that the perspective that we see in Australia and possibly the Western world is that Israel is above reproach and only acts to defend itself when this is possibly not the case. I honestly didn't intend this as a critiscism of anyones foreign policy or anything like that.

I mean the atrocities I speak of are not covered up but they are not common knowledge either. I know all about "Israel defending itself" and Palestine "breeding terrorists" through education and media but things like the 1948 massacres, Sabra and Shantila in the 80s was it? Even 2002 in Jenin. To me they all seem like important things in the background of the story that I knew nothing of until I did some extra reading.

 

[holyland red]

I don't mean that quite as it sounded. Indeed your right, very little would escape the media these days. My point is more that the perspective that we see in Australia and possibly the Western world is that Israel is above reproach and only acts to defend itself when this is possibly not the case. I honestly didn't intend this as a critiscism of anyones foreign policy or anything like that.

I mean the atrocities I speak of are not covered up but they are not common knowledge either. I know all about "Israel defending itself" and Palestine "breeding terrorists" through education and media but things like the 1948 massacres, Sabra and Shantila in the 80s was it? Even 2002 in Jenin. To me they all seem like important things in the background of the story that I knew nothing of until I did some extra reading.

1948 atrocities are indeed not common knowledge, and the war which started as a civil war was indeed horrible. However, you can't expect Western media to break news about 1940's massacres.

Sabra and Shatila was a massacre that got shedload of media attention, and depite that I'd bet a bollock that many don't know that it was carried out by Christian Lebanese against Muslim Palestinians. An Israeli investigation committee found the then Israeli Minister of Defense guilty of neglegence, which led to his ousting. I bet this is a quite unprecedented response by a country "beyond reproach".

Funny you mention the Jenin massacre. I share your concern because it never happened. It was an exercise in using lies and world media for the Palestinian cause. Just like the Muhammad al-Dura story. Paliwood.

 

[Lynott]

1948 atrocities are indeed not common knowledge, and the war which started as a civil war was indeed horrible. However, you can't expect Western media to break news about 1940's massacres.

Sabra and Shatila was a massacre that got shedload of media attention, and depite that I'd bet a bollock that many don't know that it was carried out by Christian Lebanese against Muslim Palestinians. An Israeli investigation committee found the then Israeli Minister of Defense guilty of neglegence, which led to his ousting. I bet this is a quite unprecedented response by a country "beyond reproach".

Funny you mention the Jenin massacre. I share your concern because it never happened. It was an exercise in using lies and world media for the Palestinian cause. Just like the Muhammad al-Dura story. Paliwood.

I think everbody knows this, and the fact that the Israelis had and massive hand in it.

The Israeli Forces occupied the capital city of Lebanon, Beirut and dominated militarily the refugee camps of Palestinians and controlled the entrance to the city. Immediately after the event of assassination of Bachir Gemayel, the leader and president-elect of the Lebanese Phalangist, a Maronite group, also called Lebanese Forces militia group, the Israeli forces enabled the entrance of the angry Kataeb Party group to the refugee camps, by providing them transportation from outside Beirut with Israeli military Helicopters (pick up and drop into the camps) and firing illuminating flares over the camps to enable the killing to continue during the night. The exact number killed by the Kataeb Party militia is disputed, with estimations running from 700-800 to 3,500 according to different source

 

[holyland red]

Israel and the Christians Lebanese had a common enemy in the PLO whose fighters took refuge in the camps. Israeli officials made poor judgement in allowing the Phalangists to enter the camps and take on the allegedly hiding PLO fighters. Despite the clear instructions not to target civilians the Israeli officials should have known better based on past history of massacres between Lebanese Christians and Palestinians.

Horrible as things turned out to be, and Israel as an occupying force should have some (even if indirect) responsibility, it's clear that Israel had nothing to gain from the massacre of Palestinian civilians.

 

[Neutral]

Western politicians prefer to ignore Israel's inherent racism
ANTONY LOEWENSTEIN
October 28, 2010

Imagine a mainstream Australian politician saying that Aborigines should be banned from leading tourists around Uluru because they might "present anti-Australian positions" to visitors. The outcry would be furious.

But a bill is currently before the Israeli Knesset, led by a parliamentarian from the "moderate" Kadima party, that would bar Arab residents of East Jerusalem from working as tour guides in the city. Knesset member Gideon Ezra said it was essential tourist groups are "accompanied by a tour guide who is an Israeli citizen and has institutional loyalty to the [Jewish] state of Israel".

It is just the latest sign in an ever-tightening noose around Arabs from the Zionist mainstream in the self-described Jewish nation.


Journalist Gideon Levy writes in the Israeli daily Haaretz that no politician "has even begun to think of Arabs as being equal to Jews". The Israeli Jewish public increasingly shares these authoritarian views. In a study published in the newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth, 36 per cent of Israeli Jews urged the revoking of Arab voting rights and restriction of free speech in "times of political difficulty".

Israel is not a democracy for all its citizens but an insecure nation demanding obedience to an ideology that deliberately excludes the legitimate rights of its Arab population.

The occupation in the West Bank is deepening daily, after more than 43 years, with colonies expanding at the fastest rate in two years. The illegal siege on Gaza contributes to Palestinian children suffering debilitating malnutrition.

This is the Israel that Western politicians prefer to ignore. When I recently confronted Opposition Leader Tony Abbott over his blind backing for Israeli "democracy", he muttered something about the Middle East not being "perfect." But, I countered, what about Jewish-only settler roads in the West Bank? That was "bad", he acknowledged, before looking away nervously.

Julia Gillard's Labor Party shares these delusions. It is one of the reasons that the Independent Australian Jewish Voices group published newspaper advertisements nationally this month demanding the Australian government "exert pressure on Israel to conform to international law and humanitarian standards".

The growing global concern over Israeli values has been crystallised by the Netanyahu cabinet voting to force non-Jews seeking citizenship to swear allegiance to Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state".

The decision was met with furious indignation from a vocal minority in Israel, not least Palestinians who were being asked to negate their historical rights. Leftist Jewish Israelis marched through Tel Aviv chanting, "Fascism and ethnic cleansing are standing proud".

In the Diaspora there was virtual silence. Blind loyalty came before defending democratic values. The Achilles heel is its deference to Israeli government decisions, a Maoist-like devotion to a country increasingly delegitimised by its own occupying policies.

One of the main reasons the boycott, divestment and sanctions campaign is thriving around the world - alongside the one-state solution idea - is that Israel ignores global demands to change its behaviour. Cultural and economic isolation worked against apartheid South Africa.

Just the latest example of a principled stance in reaction to the loyalty oath, was the refusal of the English filmmaker Mike Leigh to participate in a program at a Jerusalem film school. He also cited expanding West Bank settlements and the brutal attack on the Gaza flotilla.

Leigh was praised by the Palestinian Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel for highlighting "the fact that collaborating with institutions of a state that practises occupation, colonisation and apartheid, as Israel does, cannot be regarded as a neutral act …"

No other Western state has tried to introduce anything like the loyalty oath. The oath is on an ever-growing list of anti-democratic proposals before the Knesset, including a one-year prison term for "incitement for the negation of the existence of the state of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state".

Palestinians and leftist Jews are loathed fifth-columns to be smeared and isolated.

No obfuscation about the supposedly devilish plans of Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran or al-Qaeda can distract from the reality of Israel's inherent racism. The world should stop pumping in funds to perpetuate the infrastructure of oppression.

Antony Loewenstein is a freelance journalist and author of My Israel Question.
Western politicians prefer to ignore Israel's inherent racism

Yo, Holyland, where you at brother? Just a quick question in relation to the bit in bold, the rest you can ignore, it's just the standard fare, nothing new...

I think it makes sense that a company would want to hire someone who will point out the positives rather than someone who says "see that rubble, it used to be my ancestral home..etc etc..."

But an actual legislation? Is that necessary? Will it pass? Is there something the author missed?

 

[rednev]

Its passing wouldn't surprise me one bit. As long as Israel remains a constitutionally racist state, this sort of thing will happen without most of the Jewish citizens being able to see anything wrong with it.

Israel won't be allowed to get away with it for much longer. The US might not change its stance, but a time will come when Europe is no longer willing to put up with it, just like how opposition to the apartheid regime of South Africa grew to a point where it became politically impossible to do anything other than oppose it. It's quite shocking that in 2010 we have yet to reach that stage, actually.

 

[Jason F]

That is a disgrace, yes I can understand individual companies only wanting positives pointed out but if its institutionalised then that is just unacceptable. How can a country just pretend that a section of its population just doesnt exist? How can anyone else just stand by and let them?

Unbelievable!

 

[Fearless]

Its passing wouldn't surprise me one bit. As long as Israel remains a constitutionally racist state, this sort of thing will happen without most of the Jewish citizens being able to see anything wrong with it.

You know what Jews are like. Racist, the lot of them.

 

[Kaos]

These are interesting actions for a nation that's supposedly in 'peace talks' with the Palestinians. Just the other day they also began work on 700 more illegal settlements on the West Bank the second that restriction ceased. It makes you wonder, do they actually desire peace with the Palestinians? Or maybe it's a warning to the them: sign the peace process, submit to our demands and shut it.

Bah this whole things a mess, frustrating more so since you've got active state apartheid here that's being given the green light by the rest of the world. I don't really blame the Israelis - if you're not getting burnt by playing with fire then why stop?

 

[rednev]

You know what Jews are like. Racist, the lot of them.

Yeah, because that's exactly what I said.

 

[Fearless]

Yeah, because that's exactly what I said.

Yes. It is.

 

[Fearless]

These are interesting actions for a nation that's supposedly in 'peace talks' with the Palestinians. Just the other day they also began work on 700 more illegal settlements on the West Bank the second that restriction ceased. It makes you wonder, do they actually desire peace with the Palestinians? Or maybe it's a warning to the them: sign the peace process, submit to our demands and shut it.

The peace talks are posturing bollox. Everybody knows it and all parties are actually very happy with it that way.

Why can't you / don't you want to understand this?

 

[Kaos]

The peace talks are posturing bollox. Everybody knows it and all parties are actually very happy with it that way.

Why can't you / don't you want to understand this?

So what's the solution then Cuntastine? Keep eating away at Palestinian land and individual rights until they've had enough and all bugger off?

 

[holyland red]

Yo, Holyland, where you at brother? Just a quick question in relation to the bit in bold, the rest you can ignore, it's just the standard fare, nothing new...

I think it makes sense that a company would want to hire someone who will point out the positives rather than someone who says "see that rubble, it used to be my ancestral home..etc etc..."

But an actual legislation? Is that necessary? Will it pass? Is there something the author missed?

Never heard about it. Sounds absolutely mad and not much different than having only journalists who are only licensed if they hold the same personal agenda as Mr. Ezra.

 

[holyland red]

Just the other day they also began work on 700 more illegal settlements on the West Bank the second that restriction ceased.

Did they? Who are "they"? Do you have any sort of evidence to support this claim?

It makes you wonder, do they actually desire peace with the Palestinians?

Do you? I mean, do you support a two-state solution? If one of those state is a Jewish state does that mean that it's an apartheid state that is constitutionally racist?

 

[RedSky]

Can we simply push all of these people onto a spaceship and shoot them off to a random planet?

Least we'd have somewhere to put the polar bears and tigers then

 

[Fearless]

So what's the solution then Cuntastine? Keep eating away at Palestinian land and individual rights until they've had enough and all bugger off?

Land swap INCLUDING Jordanian territory.

After all, this is actually Jordan's mess far far more than Israel's.

 

[Kaos]

Land swap INCLUDING Jordanian territory.

After all, this is actually Jordan's mess far far more than Israel's.

Would this 'land swap' you propose include a return to pre-1967 borders with the Golaan heights and Sheeba farms returned to Syria and Lebanon respectively, and would you then accept that Israel would finally have to declare its borders?

 

[Kaos]

Least we'd have somewhere to put the polar bears and tigers then

Polar bears in a hot and humid region like the middle east? I take it science wasn't your forte?

 

[mjs020294]

The Jews are just pissed at the realization they never really were the “chosen ones”. Let’s face it if a God truly did exist and had his favorites surely he is smart enough to place the oil underneath their land.

 

[RedSky]

Polar bears in a hot and humid region like the middle east? I take it science wasn't your forte?

You haven't watched much lost eh?

 

[Neutral]

The Jews are just pissed at the realization they never really were the “chosen ones”. Let’s face it if a God truly did exist and had his favorites surely he is smart enough to place the oil underneath their land.

Shut up goyim...you are mere donkeys, to be tolerated till you are no longer of use.

^not my words.

 

[holyland red]

The Jews are just pissed at the realization they never really were the “chosen ones”. Let’s face it if a God truly did exist and had his favorites surely he is smart enough to place the oil underneath their land.

Being the almighty that he is, and knowing the plan Arabs has for his "chosen ones", god planted enough of his energy reserves deep under the Mediterranean water.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/21/world/middleeast/21israel.html

 

[holyland red]

Would this 'land swap' you propose include a return to pre-1967 borders with the Golaan heights and Sheeba farms returned to Syria and Lebanon respectively, and would you then accept that Israel would finally have to declare its borders?

[16 Jun 2000] SG/SM/7458 PKO/90: SECRETARY-GENERAL RECEIVES CONFIRMATION FROM UNIFIL OF FULL WITHDRAWAL OF ISRAEL FROM LEBANON

 

[rednev]

Yes. It is.

No, it isn't.

I said that most of the Jewish citizens of Israel are unable to see anything wrong with Israel's racist policies. Not all Jews in Israel, and certainly not 'all Jews' per se. The fact that Israel is able to carry its racist policies is evidence of it. When you grow up in a society in which you are told from an early age that the country you are living in is the land of your own race above all others (often from a religious point of view, informing you that you are God's chosen racial group), then the result is what we're seeing. Racism.

Explain to me the difference between what is happening in Israel and the hypothetical situation of the BNP (or any other racist party) coming into power in the UK and declaring it a white country where ethnically British people have primary rights on things such as land, and where non-ethnic-Britons are subject to various restrictions.

 

[Fearless]

Would this 'land swap' you propose include a return to pre-1967 borders with the Golaan heights and Sheeba farms returned to Syria and Lebanon respectively, and would you then accept that Israel would finally have to declare its borders?

Lets get this straight: the 'pre-1967 borders' are armistice lines - not borders.

They are the result of Arab aggression - not Israeli colonial adventures as so many on this thread want to believe.

As far as Syria goes, the Golan Heights are a strategic advantage to either, as proven by Syria's 1973 invasion...and nobody in their right mind trusts the Syrians right now (other Arab states especially).

Furthermore, any peace deal should include compensation for 800,00 refugee'd Jews as well as Palestinians.

 

[Fearless]

No, it isn't.

I said that most of the Jewish citizens of Israel are unable to see anything wrong with Israel's racist policies. Not all Jews in Israel, and certainly not 'all Jews' per se. The fact that Israel is able to carry its racist policies is evidence of it. When you grow up in a society in which you are told from an early age that the country you are living in is the land of your own race above all others (often from a religious point of view, informing you that you are God's chosen racial group), then the result is what we're seeing. Racism.

Explain to me the difference between what is happening in Israel and the hypothetical situation of the BNP (or any other racist party) coming into power in the UK and declaring it a white country where ethnically British people have primary rights on things such as land, and where non-ethnic-Britons are subject to various restrictions.

Very disingenuous. I know of no law in Israel that distinguishes on race, bar the law of return (though I do understand that - like any other country - racism does indeed sadly play out in the public domain).

If you are in fact talking about the palestinians then remember that they are not citizens (ie Israeli Arabs) and therefore - like any other country - not subject to the benefits of state.

 

[Kaos]

US vetoes UN condemnation of Israeli settlements | Ed Pilkington | World news | The Guardian

And you wonder why the peace talks get nowhere

So much for Obama being a breath of fresh air, we're just seeing a Bush MKII who also refuses to catch up with the rest of the world.

 

[Frosty]

US vetoes UN condemnation of Israeli settlements | Ed Pilkington | World news | The Guardian

And you wonder why the peace talks get nowhere

So much for Obama being a breath of fresh air, we're just seeing a Bush MKII who also refuses to catch up with the rest of the world.

Of course, reading the story may help:

The US ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, said the decision to use the veto power – open to the five permanent members of the UN, of which the US is one – "should not be misunderstood to mean we support settlement activity".

She said Washington's view was that the Israeli settlements lacked legitimacy, but added: "Unfortunately, this draft resolution risks hardening the positions of both sides and could encourage the parties to stay out of negotiations."

Not exactly Bush Mark II, even if you disagree with the veto decision.

 

[Kaos]

Of course, reading the story may help:



Not exactly Bush Mark II, even if you disagree with the veto decision.

So let me get this straight: the US opposes the settlement activity and thats why they vetoed a UNSC resolution thats condemned the very same thing they supposedely disapprove of? Furthermore, Susan Rice's justification is that Israelis will build LESS settlements if the the US vetoed this condemnation?

I give up, I honestly do...worlds gone mad.