Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

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What a disgusting man. Anybody can see that it's not in israel's interest to have peace, and they are destroying the process.

Tbf, I don't think there are many on both sides, who don't want peace, this state of conflict suits them and their agendas beautifully.

I tend to look inwards rather than blame others right from the word go, and I sound a bit like a broken record, but the arab countries have been completely irresponsible and juvenile(criminal actually) when it comes to this issue.

I am not speaking about Jordan(King Abdallah/Abdullah, shut up you gimp), a complete non-entity, but countries like Saudi Arabia, need to stop tip toeing around the issue, and get involved.
 

Nistelrooy10

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Tbf, I don't think there are many on both sides, who don't want peace, this state of conflict suits them and their agendas beautifully.

I tend to look inwards rather than blame others right from the word go, and I sound a bit like a broken record, but the arab countries have been completely irresponsible and juvenile(criminal actually) when it comes to this issue.

I am not speaking about Jordan(King Abdallah/Abdullah, shut up you gimp), a complete non-entity, but countries like Saudi Arabia, need to stop tip toeing around the issue, and get involved.
No doubt. I don't care about the surrounding Arab governments, they've been bought off. I just care about the poor regular Palestinians suffering.
 

Mihajlovic

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Tbf, I don't think there are many on both sides, who don't want peace, this state of conflict suits them and their agendas beautifully.

I tend to look inwards rather than blame others right from the word go, and I sound a bit like a broken record, but the arab countries have been completely irresponsible and juvenile(criminal actually) when it comes to this issue.

I am not speaking about Jordan(King Abdallah/Abdullah, shut up you gimp), a complete non-entity, but countries like Saudi Arabia, need to stop tip toeing around the issue, and get involved.
Do you think Jordan, the non-entity, would have actually been the perfectly suitable homeland for the Palestinians (Palestinian Arabs)?
 

Commadus

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80% of what was known as palestine is now Jordan. And 80% of Jordans population is palestinian.

So err... yes.
Using that logic shouldn't the Jews in Europe remain in Europe rather than make their way to Israel?
 

mjs020294

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Ultimately the only real solution is the Jews and Palestinians wake up one morning and decide to coexist in peace. The best first step would be a UN peace keeping force but Arab nations wouldn't support that, and the Jews would resist at all costs anyway.

Maybe Arab countries could offer homes to all the Palestinians, and we could pay them handsomely to relocate. That wouldn't stop the extremists continuing their struggle with Israel though.

Peace....isn't happening in our lifetime unfortunately.
 

holyland red

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Ultimately the only real solution is the Jews and Palestinians wake up one morning and decide to coexist in peace.
They already do to a large extent, a.k.a. Israeli Arabs. However, this is unsustainable for WB and Gaza Arabs because a noe-state solution would see an Arab majority in the not too distant future, and that's when peaceful coexsitance goes out the window.

The best first step would be a UN peace keeping force but Arab nations wouldn't support that, and the Jews would resist at all costs anyway.
You mean like the peace-keeping force in southern Lebanon, making sure that hizballah doesn't stock weapons south of the Litani river, or the EU Rafah inspectors for that matter?

Maybe Arab countries could offer homes to all the Palestinians, and we could pay them handsomely to relocate. That wouldn't stop the extremists continuing their struggle with Israel though.
True.

Peace....isn't happening in our lifetime unfortunately.
Correct.
 

holyland red

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Too bad the Palestinians didn't ambush them and torched the settlers while they were at it.

Unfortunately, with the slim chances this round of talks has to succeed some are determined to make absolutely sure that the conflict goes on forever. This act has been condemned by settlers rabbis, but that doesn't clear them from responsibility for creating the youth mobs that have become more radical and torch olive trees and mosques for fun.
 

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Too bad the Palestinians didn't ambush them and torched the settlers while they were at it.

Unfortunately, with the slim chances this round of talks has to succeed some are determined to make absolutely sure that the conflict goes on forever. This act has been condemned by settlers rabbis, but that doesn't clear them from responsibility for creating the youth mobs that have become more radical and torch olive trees and mosques for fun.
I just thought it was a random story, didn't want anyone to get on their soapbox, which is why I made light of the issue.

Every week muslims bomb mosques, so better to keep our heads down, and not go mental at a few Jews doing it

:lol::lol::lol:
 

holyland red

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I just thought it was a random story, didn't want anyone to get on their soapbox, which is why I made light of the issue.

Every week muslims bomb mosques, so better to keep our heads down, and not go mental at a few Jews doing it

:lol::lol::lol:
True, but the scenes of Palestinians gathering in the mosque chanting "death to Israel" "Khaibar ya Yahud" isn't pleasant, especially when many of them were kids. Doesn't bode well for peace prospects in our generation.

Having said that, you know well enough what these "random stories" end up like in this place, so you're clearly guilty of some shit stirring.
 

Neutral

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True, but the scenes of Palestinians gathering in the mosque chanting "death to Israel" "Khaibar ya Yahud" isn't pleasant, especially when many of them were kids. Doesn't bode well for peace prospects in our generation.

Having said that, you know well enough what these "random stories" end up like in this place, so you're clearly guilty of some shit stirring.
Not meaning to...I actually looked to see if there had been a retaliation of some sort, to give it some balance.

But it only happened yesterday, so none yet.

As for the kids, yes it is nasty, but I sincerely believe kids are very resilient, and if the grown ups acts like grown ups on both sides, the kids will be just fine, no matter how much hatred they might have had fed to them.
 

holyland red

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Not meaning to...I actually looked to see if there had been a retaliation of some sort, to give it some balance.

But it only happened yesterday, so none yet.

As for the kids, yes it is nasty, but I sincerely believe kids are very resilient, and if the grown ups acts like grown ups on both sides, the kids will be just fine, no matter how much hatred they might have had fed to them.
Here is the latest:

Rabbis visit torched mosque, condemn attack - Israel News, Ynetnews
 

Commadus

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No suprise talks will end in failure well not for Israel. The longer no solution exists and the longer it can be strung out the more settlements will be built.
 

holyland red

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There is no doubt that if the talks end in nothing it will be Israel's fault, regardless of why they actually fail.
 

Neutral

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There is no doubt that if the talks end in nothing it will be Israel's fault, regardless of why they actually fail.
What were the Israeli demands, or wants from this round of talks?

Also why does Israel go out of its way to antagonize the process with the settlements. They are illegal, of that there is no doubt, of course them being under Israeli control, means Israel can do as it pleases....But why are these settlements, and settlers no freaking untouchable?

I understand Israel is thinking of the end game, and will use them as a bargaining chip/land trade, any other reasons?

*I don't buy the it's traumatic for Israelis to evict Israelis from their homes because of the holocaust line.
 

holyland red

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What were the Israeli demands, or wants from this round of talks?
You don't really believe that the details are published in the media in real time. I hold little hope in the talks because the Palestinians are pretty far from agreeing to a Jewish state. They claim to support a two-state solution but fail to acknowledge that each state will be the nation-state for the two nations involved. This is why they insist on the "right of return" which is aimed at undermining the Jewish nature of pre-1967 Israel. It also reflects their national ideology which states that the Jews are affiliated by religion only, and as such do not deserve a nation state, just as there aren't a Muslim or Christian homelands.

Also why does Israel go out of its way to antagonize the process with the settlements. They are illegal, of that there is no doubt, of course them being under Israeli control, means Israel can do as it pleases....But why are these settlements, and settlers no freaking untouchable?

Israel self imposed a 10-month moratorium on construction in the settlements, and one might wonder why the Palestinians agreed on direct talks only weeks before the end of that period. If that was really the stumbling block I'd have expected the talks to have gone on for months now.

Look, this whole business looks like two sides which are too weak politically to push a deal forward, and focus on bringing the talks to an unsuccessful end while deflecting the blame on the other. The settlements are nothing more than an excuse, as the fate of most is already known if an agreement is reached. Several will be included in a territory exchange deal, while the majority will be abandoned. I reckon the construction should infuriate Israelis more than anyone else- if anything we're spending money building settlements for the Palestinians.

I understand Israel is thinking of the end game, and will use them as a bargaining chip/land trade, any other reasons?
As I said above, I don't see the construction as a bargaining chip of any sort. If an agreement can be reached most settlements will go. The whole construction business has more to do with the survival of Netanyahu's coalition than any strategy.

*I don't buy the it's traumatic for Israelis to evict Israelis from their homes because of the holocaust line.
Good, becase the IDF evicted 8000 Jews from their settlements in the Gaza Strip a few years ago.
 

Neutral

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You don't really believe that the details are published in the media in real time. I hold little hope in the talks because the Palestinians are pretty far from agreeing to a Jewish state. They claim to support a two-state solution but fail to acknowledge that each state will be the nation-state for the two nations involved. This is why they insist on the "right of return" which is aimed at undermining the Jewish nature of pre-1967 Israel. It also reflects their national ideology which states that the Jews are affiliated by religion only, and as such do not deserve a nation state, just as there aren't a Muslim or Christian homelands.




Israel self imposed a 10-month moratorium on construction in the settlements, and one might wonder why the Palestinians agreed on direct talks only weeks before the end of that period. If that was really the stumbling block I'd have expected the talks to have gone on for months now.

Look, this whole business looks like two sides which are too weak politically to push a deal forward, and focus on bringing the talks to an unsuccessful end while deflecting the blame on the other. The settlements are nothing more than an excuse, as the fate of most is already known if an agreement is reached. Several will be included in a territory exchange deal, while the majority will be abandoned. I reckon the construction should infuriate Israelis more than anyone else- if anything we're spending money building settlements for the Palestinians.



As I said above, I don't see the construction as a bargaining chip of any sort. If an agreement can be reached most settlements will go. The whole construction business has more to do with the survival of Netanyahu's coalition than any strategy.



Good, becase the IDF evicted 8000 Jews from their settlements in the Gaza Strip a few years ago.
No, I don't think milestones are published and disclosed in the media as negotiations happen...but surely the Israeli media/populace, had certain issues they wanted at least discussed in these rounds(no matter how pessimistic everyone is)

I believe in the long run, the Palestinians will give up the right of return. I'm not sure why it's within quotes though..I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and think that, you were just highlighting the issue, but it is sad that their right to return is looked at as a joke.

But the reality on the ground is, those people are gone...I don't think Israel will accept a single person back, can't really blame them either, put the shoe in the other foot, and what would happen?

You don't think they settlements are an issue? I don't think they are the biggest issue, but let's say final status comes about in a decades time, by then, there will be close to 400,000 settlers. You can't tell me, this is going to be a major issue internally in Israel, to see near on half a million of their own, being torn away from their homes, kicking and screaming.
 

holyland red

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No, I don't think milestones are published and disclosed in the media as negotiations happen...but surely the Israeli media/populace, had certain issues they wanted at least discussed in these rounds(no matter how pessimistic everyone is)
Most Israelis want recognition in their right for an independent Jewish state. Personally, I would not hand a square inch to anyone unless this is part of the deal. Obviously demilitarization and foreign security forces on the ground will be a part of any future deal (and I think have already been discussed in past negotiations).

I believe in the long run, the Palestinians will give up the right of return. I'm not sure why it's within quotes though..I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and think that, you were just highlighting the issue, but it is sad that their right to return is looked at as a joke.
It's presented this way, because this is clearly a tactic for making a democratic Jewish state not viable. Jews don't have a right of return to Arab countries, Sudeten Germans don't as millions of people around where you come from.

But the reality on the ground is, those people are gone...I don't think Israel will accept a single person back, can't really blame them either, put the shoe in the other foot, and what would happen?
You may be surprised to know that Israel already agreed to welcome thousands of refugees back (well, at least Olmert did but his negotiations never concluded to the point of government decision). Again, personally I don't mind Israel accepting several thousand refugees as a gesture of acknoledging the 1948 plight of the Palestinians. However, this can not be at the scale the Palestinian demand which questions their real motive.

You don't think they settlements are an issue? I don't think they are the biggest issue, but let's say final status comes about in a decades time, by then, there will be close to 400,000 settlers. You can't tell me, this is going to be a major issue internally in Israel, to see near on half a million of their own, being torn away from their homes, kicking and screaming.
Most settlers live in towns which will be included in a territory exchange deal. The others should have the option of either evicting their homes or accepting Palestinian rule.
 

Sultan

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Most settlers live in towns which will be included in a territory exchange deal. The others should have the option of either evicting their homes or accepting Palestinian rule.
Are settlements built randomly or in strategic locations?

Why are planning permissions given, and who in their right mind would want spend money building these homes if their is a chance they will be part of a future settlement, however, slight.
 

holyland red

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Are settlements built randomly or in strategic locations?

Why are planning permissions given, and who in their right mind would want spend money building these homes if their is a chance they will be part of a future settlement, however, slight.
There is no construction of new settlements, apart from newposts set up by youth mobs such as those that torched the mosque the other day. Needless to say these are built without any government permission, and are occasionally dismantled by police. These people's only strategy is blocking any attempt to reach an agreement by making those provocations, and therefore the location of their posts is irrelevant. These "settlements" are definitely not an obstacle to a comprehensive agreement though.

You are right regarding the futility of spending a fortune on construction in areas which will be handed to the Arabs in the event of an agreement. However, the settlers are right from their point of view when they claim that they were encouraged by legal governments to build settlements, and that their communities depend on construction of new homes, schools etc. as long they live there.
 

Sultan

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There is no construction of new settlements, apart from newposts set up by youth mobs such as those that torched the mosque the other day. Needless to say these are built without any government permission, and are occasionally dismantled by police. These people's only strategy is blocking any attempt to reach an agreement by making those provocations, and therefore the location of their posts is irrelevant. These "settlements" are definitely not an obstacle to a comprehensive agreement though.

You are right regarding the futility of spending a fortune on construction in areas which will be handed to the Arabs in the event of an agreement. However, the settlers are right from their point of view when they claim that they were encouraged by legal governments to build settlements, and that their communities depend on construction of new homes, schools etc. as long they live there.
Cheers HR.
 

holyland red

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Plot of the novel The Scar of David
Hag Yehia represents the first generation. This generation is forced to leave their lands and live in refugee camps. The lasting trauma of this removal is demonstrated when hag Yehia died in his land when he sneaks to visit it and he is found holding olives in his hand.

Hag Yehia also represents the passivity of Arabs. Though he witnessed how the Israeli Army drove the Palestinians out of their lands and stole their houses, he did not stand beside them. He only keeps on praying that they do not steal his land and house. Moreover, he underestimates their power, thinking that it is a short term problem that will soon be solved.

Amal and Yousef are the second generation of the community that was removed from the land. It is the generation born in refugee camps, and forced to live shattered all over the world. Amal can find "no future in refugee camps", and she travels to America in order to complete her study there. She then travels to Lebanon to stay with her brother. There, she marries her brother's friend. She is forced to leave Lebanon and return to America, aiming to save her family from the Israeli attack, yet she fails to do so. She suffers intensely after the murder of her husband, sister-in-law and unborn niece. Only her daughter, Sara, gives her hope to continue her life. She suppresses her emotions, aiming not to be hurt again. Finally, Amal dies in Palestine in order to save her daughter's life from an Isreali bullet.

Yousef also lives in a continuous movement. Imprisonment after the 1967 war brakes down his soul. This leads him to join the PLO in order to defend his country. The PLO raised a slogan "what is taken by force, could only be regained by force". Yousef travels to Lebanon where he intends to begin a new life. He marries Fatima and has a daughter. After the Israeli army massacres his wife, daughter and unborn child during the Sabra and Shatila massacre, he no longer can stand the pain. He joins a terrorist organization in Jordan, but then withdraws and lives the rest of his life escaping from the Israeli forces.

Sara represents the third generation of the dislocated community; the generation which is born in exile. She is born and lives in America. She once visits Palestine, but could not imagine the mistreatment of the Palestinians by the Jews until she saw it. She stays after her mother is killed, joins a French NGO, and helps rebuild the refugee camp, but is eventually deported back to America where she joins many organizations to defend her land.

------------------
I reckon this isn't that different to how Israel is portrayed in Western media, though it looks like a script of a poor soap opera. Why don't you check translated Arab media instead?
 

Jason F

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I reckon this isn't that different to how Israel is portrayed in Western media, though it looks like a script of a poor soap opera. Why don't you check translated Arab media instead?
Really? the impression I get from the news is that the Israel is just minding its own business and protecting itself while Palestine goes about bombing innocent Israelis.
 

Neutral

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Really? the impression I get from the news is that the Israel is just minding its own business and protecting itself while Palestine goes about bombing innocent Israelis.
That certainly is the view in australia mate...thanks to groups like AIJAC. Every Australian politician has gone on the record as saying, Israel is a shining light, and they have a right to do just about whatever they please.

Bob Brown being an exception.

John Howard of course amped up the praise, when he went across to try to make Australia relevant in the international diplomatic scene.

But we are a very small country, and the media just isn't that diverse, ABC is the best thing we have, and SBS for international news, yet the typical aussie ignores SBS...because it is after all the wog channel.
 

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Fundamentally Freund: Time to rein in Obama
By MICHAEL FREUND
10/06/2010 23:48

For the sake of Israel and its future, supporters of the Jewish state need to tame the administration and its arrogance at the ballot box.



In less than a month, American voters will go to the polls in what is shaping up to be a decisive midterm election. The entire House of Representatives and more than a third of the Senate will be up for grabs, as Republicans and Democrats duke it out for control of the legislative branch.

For pro-Israel Jews and Christians, this election couldn’t come at a more opportune moment. After more than a year-anda- half of the administration’s unprecedented bullying of Israel, those who cherish the relationship between America and the Jewish state will now have a chance to send a loud and clear message.

To put it bluntly: It’s payback time, and Israel’s supporters should teach President Barack Obama a lesson by giving his party a stinging rebuke at the ballot box in November.


The stakes in this election are particularly high, as the Democrats face the prospect of losing their hegemony over one or both houses of Congress, which would be an enormous blow to their agenda to reshape America.

And by all accounts, things are not looking too good for Obama and his party. The Democrats, it appears, are about to be slammed by the political equivalent of a tidal wave, amid rising discontent over a weak economy and lackluster recovery. Various key figures in the party, including Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada, may be swept away. Earlier this week, Reid slipped behind his Republican opponent Sharron Angle in the polls.

WITH THE races heating up, pollsters and pundits are predicting a further surge in support for the Republicans. As Michael Barone, the Washington Examiner’s senior political analyst and one of the savviest observers of American elections, noted earlier this week, the data suggest a Republican majority brewing in the House “the likes of which we have not seen since the election cycles of 1946 or even 1928.”

Over in the Senate, the party of Lincoln and Reagan stands to make significant gains as well. According to Real- ClearPolitics’ composite average of various polls, the Republicans will pick up at least eight seats, placing them within striking distance of an outright majority.

Another four seats are said to be tossups; if the GOP can pick up two or three of them, it’s game over.

The real dissatisfaction, of course, is with the president himself, who has predictably failed to live up to the near-messianic hype that surrounded his rise to power. As a result, Obama is poised to get a painful reproof from the very same electorate that embraced him just two years ago.

This admonition must also come from Jews as well, some 78 percent of whom are said to have voted for Obama in 2008. And there could be no better way to deliver that message than by joining hands to help Republican candidates prevail across the country.

The president has lambasted Israel at the UN and pressured it to make concessions to the Palestinians, even as he has courted the Muslim world and virtually pleaded for engagement with the atomic ayatollahs in Iran. Obama and his crew have shown themselves to be tonedeaf to Israel and its concerns, and it’s time they paid a political price.

Indeed, even some of the president’s most stalwart Jewish supporters have turned against him. Earlier this year, former New York City mayor Ed Koch told Fox News that “I have been a supporter of President Obama and went to Florida for him, urged Jews all over the country to vote for him, saying that he would be just as good as John McCain on the security of Israel. I don’t think it’s true anymore.”

A growing number of American Jews seem to concur. In August, the Pew Research Center issued the results of a survey which found that the number of Jews identifying as or leaning Republican has reached 33% – a leap of more than 50% since the 2008 elections.

This is the highest such figure ever recorded.

Sure, Jews represent a small percentage of the electorate. But their concentration in key states such as Florida, California and New York gives added weight to their votes. And it’s no small secret that Jewish donors play a critical role in bankrolling numerous political campaigns on both sides of the aisle. This clout and influence must now be brought to bear with all its force in the vote next month.

Politics, after all, is a game of messages.

Sometimes they must be implicit while at other times only an unambiguous reprimand will do. For the sake of Israel and its future, supporters of the Jewish state need to tame the administration and its arrogance at the ballot box as unequivocally as they can.

It is time to punish Obama politically, as scary as that may sound to some people.

Doing so will weaken his position, constrain his freedom of movement, and force him to devote more time and energy to domestic political battles.

And with his eye toward re-election in 2012, it may just give him pause to consider whether squeezing Israel is good for his own political future.
So Israel feels it is being squeezed by Obama? Not much prospect of any serious discussion, if the Israelis feel the US isn't on their side, let alone a neutral mediator.

Stupid muslims, where is your lobby, influence, money in terms of donations?