Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

2cents

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To be fair I think you need to listen to the whole speech and not just take out that one passage. Netanyahu was talking in the context of Israel being accused to want to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque, which he said is a lie as much as the lie that was told my the Mufti nearly hundred years ago, who also accused Israel of the same thing- the same Mufti who met with Hitler etc etc etc.... However incorrect, the context of the point he was trying to make was all about the accusation that Israel wants to destroy the Muslim place of worship. The topic of his speech wasn't Hitler or the road to holocaust.
Ultimately he's falsifying the historical record for political point-scoring, something akin to the Palestinian claim that there never was a Jewish Temple in Jersualem, etc.

Times of Israel has what it calls the 'official record' of the famous Hitler-Husseini meeting, worth a read - http://www.timesofisrael.com/full-official-record-what-the-mufti-said-to-hitler/
 

Sultan

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I don't know what you mean by a "well planned overpowering of a people since the day Israel was established in 1948". For all you know the Palestinians could have accepted the partition plan and two independent states would have developed side by side with whatever movements of people taking place freely. I'm not aware of any Israeli plans to overpower anyone. Weren't they just happy that they got a state even if half of it was nothing but desert?

Why don't you reflect on the role of the Arab leaders prior to the attack? Jews were massacred by Arabs before there ever was a state of Israel, before any settlements were build and before any land was 'occupied', and before any expressed desire for a independent Palestinian state- so what could have possibly be the reason for the start of an armed conflict when there simply wasn't an accumulation of grievances, no history of injustice and human rights abuses, no collective trauma, etc.

I also don't understand why today in 2015 there is no future for millions of Palestinian refugees because Israel dismantled hundreds of villages nearly seventy years ago. That just seems bizarre. That would be like me telling my nephews and nieces, whose parents have been kicked out of Croatia and who currently live in Serbia that they do not have a future unless they return to their village and their house in Croatia to which their dad still hold the deeds and the keys.
Your analogy does not work. Israel have denied their return to their own homes, lands and have put obstacles to a creation of a Palestinian state. They're basically prisoners.
 
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Sultan

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You missed out the part where all the combined Arab armies attacked Israel, leading to the refugee crisis itself.

Surely a mistake on your part Sultan?
:smirk:

Just because the Arab monarchs (hardly governments) organised an attack that does not mean the present Palestinians who had no hand or say in the attacks need to suffer the consequences. Humanity dictates we create better conditions for these people.

Should we deny Germans a decent life because their leaders were responsible for some of the most inhumane acts known to man?
 
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Fearless

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:smirk:

Just because the Arab monarchs (hardly governments) organised an attack that does not mean the present Palestinians who had no hand or say in the attacks need to suffer the consequences. Humanity dictates we create better conditions for these people.

Should we deny Germans a decent life because their leaders were responsible for some of the most inhumane acts known to man?

You're still bearded and wise my friend.

Pity you weren't around to stop the Hebron riots and the Fedayeen attacks
 

Fearless

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Your analogy does not work. Israel have denied their return to their own homes, lands and have put obstacles to a creation of a Palestinian state. They're basically prisoners.
And what do you say about the Khartoum Resolution when the warring Arab states agreed the infamous "Three No's": "no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it.. ?

Thats hardly an olive branch or an incentive to let a self-declared enemy through the door.

Would you?
 

Sultan

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As with any deal if the conditions are heavily in favour of Israel then it's highly likely there will be opposition from those taking part in talks.
 

Sassy Colin

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Uzz and Holyland are taking a one week time out from this thread in case anyone is wondering why they don't respond.
Reading the thread in the modmin Forum, looks like this is down to me :D I did mention, more than once that it was all a bit pointless:

This thread seems to have degenerated into a stream of point scoring posts. Your lot are really mean, yes, well your lot are really mean too.

Can we decide what this thread is supposed to be about and get it back on track?

@Raoul ?
Sorry @Uzz and @holyland red but things are far more back on track now and looking forward to you guys rejoining the debate , rather than the previous point scoring debacle.
 

Raoul

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Reading the thread in the modmin Forum, looks like this is down to me :D I did mention, more than once that it was all a bit pointless:



Sorry @Uzz and @holyland red but things are far more back on track now and looking forward to you guys rejoining the debate , rather than the previous point scoring debacle.
We almost never thread ban posters, but in this case, its quite clear that the thread has taken on a more grown up tone.
 

Amir

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And Abbas?
Certainly at times, and recently when it comes to the Al Aqsa lie (though Israel hasn't been acting very wisely about it). Naturally I don't hear him as much Nenanyahu, nor do I always know how to differentiate the truth from the lie.

In the past week Nenanyahu also claimed in one speech that he's built more settlements than previous prime ministers. And in another speech, he claimed he's built less settlements than previous prime ministers.

In that case I don't know the truth. I just doubt it can be BOTH things. :lol:
 

Vooon

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So, I'm likely to head over to Jerusalem accompanying my wife for her MA thesis field work. It would involve walking around the central areas of town a lot, including the old city. Does anyone here know the situation in the city at the moment? Is this a good idea?
 

RedTiger

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So, I'm likely to head over to Jerusalem accompanying my wife for her MA thesis field work. It would involve walking around the central areas of town a lot, including the old city. Does anyone here know the situation in the city at the moment? Is this a good idea?
Just make sure you address everyone with a "Shalom" and keep refering to the "bloody Arabs", Hopefully your stay will breeze by without incident.
 

Mihajlovic

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So, I'm likely to head over to Jerusalem accompanying my wife for her MA thesis field work. It would involve walking around the central areas of town a lot, including the old city. Does anyone here know the situation in the city at the moment? Is this a good idea?
As long as you look like a tourist you should be safe. Btw there's an incredible hummus place close to the Mamilla Mall, called Ben Sirah, you have to check it out. So good!
 

Vooon

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As long as you look like a tourist you should be safe. Btw there's an incredible hummus place close to the Mamilla Mall, called Ben Sirah, you have to check it out. So good!
Yeah, I guess you're right. Although, I have been asked a couple of times if I'm Jewish.

Anyway, we decided to stay the feck away after considering things, including advice from my wife's tutors at Uni. A shame really, last time we were in town we really enjoyed it. It's a shame the place is run by a bunch of nutters and the situation is only getting worse - a beautiful city and area of massive historical importance. There's bound to be a massive melt down at some point, the conflict can't go on like this forever.
 

milemuncher777

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Israeli officer: 'We will gas you until you die'
Israeli border patrol officer threatens to kill all residents of Aida refugee camp if Palestinians keep throwing stones.

Israeli border police have issued a shocking threat to Palestinians in Aida refugee camp, saying, "We will gas you until you die," in an apparent response to stone-throwing.

In a one-minute video of the incident recorded on Thursday by a resident of the West Bank camp, an Israeli border officer speaking in Arabic reads the chilling message over a loudspeaker as an Israeli jeep rolls slowly down the street.

"People of Aida refugee camp, we are the occupation forces. You throw stones, and we will hit you with gas until you all die. The children, the youth, the old people - you will all die. We won't leave any of you alive," the unidentified officer says.

Such an announcement is remarkable in its stated contempt for human life, as well as raising a multitude of grave concerns as to the adherence of Israeli forces to central tenets of international law.

Badil Resource Centre for Palestinian Residency and Refugee Rights

"We have arrested one of you. He is with us now. We took him from his home, and we will slaughter and kill him while you watch if you keep throwing stones," the officer continues, referring to a 25-year-old Palestinian who was arrested on Thursday and subsequently released.

"Go home or we will gas you until you die. Your families, your children, everyone - we will kill you."

The video was recorded after Israeli forces raided the camp during a protest against the occupation and fired tear gas, reportedly in response to Palestinian youths hurling stones at Israel's separation wall.

According to a report in The Times of Israel, the border officer who made the threat has since been suspended.

Camp resident Mohammed al-Azza said the incident unfolded at dusk on Thursday, noting an Israeli jeep shot tear gas towards residents' homes before making the announcement via loudspeaker.

"Everyone in the camp is talking about it," Azza told Al Jazeera. "Especially the families who have children, and older people. They are afraid because [last year] a woman died from tear gas. They believe the Israeli occupation forces will do it."

Azza noted that it was unusual for the Israelis to refer to themselves as the "occupation forces", rather than a more traditional term, such as "defence forces".

"This was something new," he said. "I was sad and happy at the same time because I heard for the first time the [Israelis] saying they were the occupation, and this is good for countries outside to hear. [But] I was angry to hear them threaten to use tear gas and kill the people; there wasn't any reason."

Contacted by Al Jazeera, a spokesperson for the Israeli army declined to comment, noting: "The video in question is under the jurisdiction of the Israeli Border Police." Israeli police directed inquiries to spokesperson Micky Rosenfeld, who could not be reached for comment.

The Badil Resource Centre for Palestinian Residency and Refugee Rights has condemned the latest developments, calling the officer's announcement from the jeep "a clear and grave threat to collectively punish the population of Aida camp by way of lethal force".


"Such an announcement is remarkable in its stated contempt for human life, as well as raising a multitude of grave concerns as to the adherence of Israeli forces to central tenets of international law," Badil noted in a statement, citing aclear threat to kill Palestinians by way of extrajudicial executions, which would breach the Geneva Conventions.

Badil has called for an independent investigation into the incident, which comes amid escalating violence in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.

A recent string of stabbings and shootings has killed 70 Palestinians and nine Israelis. Among the victims was 13-year-old Abdel Rahman Abdullah, a Palestinian who was hit by Israeli fire inside the Aida camp, which is located near the occupied West Bank town of Bethlehem.

"[The Israeli officer's statement] is a barbaric affront to all objective moral and legal standards - a statement intended and serving to terrorize an occupied civilian population," Badil said. "Such threats and the crimes to which these threats allude are the natural result of a growing culture of impunity which exists within the Israeli military."
 

berbatrick

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The head of Military Intelligence, Maj. General Herzl Halevi, said at Sunday’s weekly cabinet meeting that feelings of rage and frustration, especially among younger Palestinians, are part of the reason for the wave of terror attacks in Jerusalem and the West Bank.

Three people who attended the meeting and spoke with Haaretz on the condition of anonymity, reported that Halevi said many of the young perpetrators decided to carry out attacks because they were in despair over the state of things “and felt they had nothing to lose.”
Halevi, the sources said, added that reports and comments on social media, as well as shared videos of previous attacks, are also a contributing factor. Another cause that is affecting some young Palestinians, who executed terrorist attacks, was discourse in social media and videos of other terrorist attacks.

Leaders in the Palestinian Authority have little influence on these young people, who are alienated from them.
Halevi noted that while Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has instructed the PA security forces to thwart attacks on Israelis and has taken other measures to introduce quiet, “on the other hand he has branches that are acting to keep some kind of activity in the field,” he was quoted as telling the cabinet.
After Halevi discussed reasons for the terror attacks, Immigrant Absorption Minister Zeev Elkintold criticized him for minimizing the effect of incitement on the Palestinian side and said that Halevi implied that only Israel was at fault and not the incitement. Halevi didn’t argue with Elkin. “Yes. There is also incitement,” he said, according to the sources who attended the meeting.

When asked afterward to comment, Elkin said that he doesn’t comment on what goes on in classified meetings.
The Spokesman’s Unit of the Israel Defense Forces said in a response that it does not provide details on what officers say in cabinet meetings.


Halevi’s remarks reflect the predominant position that members of the Israeli security establishment in general, and the IDF in particular, have been presenting to the cabinet and the inner cabinet since the escalation began several weeks ago. Chief of Staff Gadi Eizenkot and other generals have been pushing for a much less aggressive approach than that advocated by cabinet members, and have been stressing the importance of close coordination with Abbas and the PA security forces.

Halevi’s assessment as for the causes of the wave of terror attacks substantially contradicts Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s message on the subject over the past few weeks. In a press conference with foreign reporters on October 15 Netanyahu said “Now they say: you have terrorist attacks because there is no peace. Neither is true. They’re attacking us not because they want peace or don’t want peace. It’s because they don’t want us here.”
In the opening of the new Knesset session on October 12, Netanyahu said: “Terrorism doesn’t stem from frustration due to the lack of progress in the peace process — terrorism stems from the will to have us exterminated.” A few days earlier, in a press conference Netanyahu called on October 8 the prime minister said that the wave of terror attacks was, “a result of wild and false incitement by the Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, several countries in the region and the Islamic Movement in Israel.”

read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.683860
 

LeChuck

CE Specialist
Israeli army unit storms hospital and kills Palestinian
Commandos arrest wounded Palestinian and gun down his cousin in the surgery wing of a hospital in occupied West Bank.

12 Nov 2015 12:11 GMT | Israeli–Palestinian conflict, Human Rights, Middle East, Palestine, Israel
An elite Israeli military force that operates undercover stormed the al-Ahli Hospital in Hebron and shot dead a 27-year-old Palestinian, the Palestinian Ministry of Health said.

Abdullah al-Shalaldeh was killed by five rounds fired early Thursday after 21 members of the elite unit - known as Mustaarabin - barged into the hospital room of his cousin, Azzam al-Shalaldeh, a ministry statement said.

The commandos wanted to question Azzam - who required surgery after earlier being shot by Israeli security forces - and his cousin tried to prevent them from doing so when the Israelis opened fire.

Following the killing of Abdullah, the Israeli force arrested Azzam who was recovering at the hospital.

Dr Jihad Shawar, director of al-Ahli Hospital, told Al Jazeera the Israeli unit entered the facility at about 3am local time.

One of the soldiers was reportedly disguised as a pregnant woman in labour.


CCTV footage provided by al-Ahli Hospital shows undercover Israeli forces during their early morning raid [Reuters]
"They headed straight towards the surgery ward, where Azzam al-Shalaldeh was being treated," Dr Shawar told Al Jazeera. When Azzam's cousin Abdullah came out of the bathroom, he was shot multiple times in the head and body.

"They kept the hospital's medical crew as hostages at gun point. They arrested the patient and took him away, leaving his cousin [to] bleed to death," Dr Shawar added.

Al Jazeera was unable to reach a spokesman from the Israeli police. Israel's internal security services confirmed the raid on the hospital, according to Agence-France Presse news agency.


The staff of al-Ahli hospital in Hebron, occupied West Bank protested after the Israeli raid and killing [EPA]
CCTV footage posted on Twitter showed the Mustaarabin commandos entering the hospital moments before the shooting.

The Mustaarabin, a unit of Arabic-speaking fighters in the Israeli military, recently gained notoriety after a video surfaced of them infiltrating a Palestinian protest - wearing masks and speaking in Arabic.

The video shows them turning on the Palestinians, shooting many of them at close range.




The latest death of a Palestinian at the hands of the Israeli army reflects what rights groups consider to be an Israeli policy of extrajudicial killing .

Undercover Israeli forces have also made a habit of raiding hospitals to arrest Palestinians being treated there .
Killing people in a hospital. Sheesh.
 

Sassy Colin

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I thought we'd got passed this sort of post in this thread. Haven't you learnt anything from your time out? We all know bad things happen every day perpetrated by both sides.

You'd do better discussing Boris Johnson's visit and the refusal of the Palestinian government to meet him because he believes in the right of the State of Israel to exist.
 

Kaos

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I thought we'd got passed this sort of post in this thread. Haven't you learnt anything from your time out? We all know bad things happen every day perpetrated by both sides.

You'd do better discussing Boris Johnson's visit and the refusal of the Palestinian government to meet him because he believes in the right of the State of Israel to exist.
Actually he did meet the Palestinian National Authority's prime minister, but decided to cancel his promised meetings with Palestinian business leaders. Lets not twist the facts eh?
 

golden_blunder

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I thought we'd got passed this sort of post in this thread. Haven't you learnt anything from your time out? We all know bad things happen every day perpetrated by both sides.

You'd do better discussing Boris Johnson's visit and the refusal of the Palestinian government to meet him because he believes in the right of the State of Israel to exist.
Sorry but shooting someone dead inside a hospital contravenes all war time laws. It's worth posting and worth discussing.
Absolutely shocking from Israel. That comes from someone who normally doesn't pay heed to the conflict over there
 

LeChuck

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@Sassy Colin

Here's what Amnesty Intl said:

Amnesty International said that the killing of the 28-year-old Palestinian may amount to an “extrajudicial execution”, according to Maan News. “The fact that Abdullah Shalaldah was shot in the head and upper body suggests this was an extrajudicial execution, adding to a disturbing pattern of similar recent incidents by Israeli forces in the West Bank which warrant urgent investigation,” said Philip Luther, Director of the Middle East and North Africa Programme at Amnesty International.

“Israeli forces must immediately cease their use of intentional lethal force against people who are not posing an imminent threat to life. The killing of Abdullah Shalaldah is the latest in a pattern of killings by Israeli forces which Amnesty International considers to have been unlawful,” Amnesty reported.
And here's MSF:

In a statement, Doctors without Borders said that “the relevant military authorities to respect the special status that [International Humanitarian Law] grants to medical facilities and the wounded and sick.”

According to Maan News, MSF demanded that the relevant authorities inform and train “members of the armed forces on their obligation to respect medical facilities and personnel, as well as patients… and their caretakers” in order to prevent another incident of this kind.

MFS said the organization is “very concerned about the fate of the patient taken away from the hospital and strongly demands to the Israeli authorities to provide the adequate medical attention and information on his conditions in the shortest delay.” The organization also requested that Israel allow Shalaldah to continue his mental health treatment through the organization.
 

Rory 7

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I genuinely can't believe how little attention this incident is getting in the mainstream broadcast media. At least where I am. Surely this is going way way beyond the pale?
 

LeChuck

CE Specialist
I genuinely can't believe how little attention this incident is getting in the mainstream broadcast media. At least where I am. Surely this is going way way beyond the pale?
That's always the way.

BBC reported the incident as such:

"Israelis shoot dead Palestinian in Hebron Hospital raid"

and then changed it to

"Israelis in disguise raid Hebron Hospital, seizing suspect"

:houllier:
 

Fearless

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I genuinely can't believe how little attention this incident is getting in the mainstream broadcast media. At least where I am. Surely this is going way way beyond the pale?
Perhaps the Israelis timed it to be hidden by coverage of the extra-judicial murder of Jihadi John.