I hope they have not given up on the project, but I'm worried. Then, that would the end of Ten Hag.
It’s not EtH’s tactics…..the players are fecking lazy
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How is it beside the point? You literally just said substitutes tend to play the same as the players going off, I pointed out Hannibal came on with a lot of energy compared to Casemiro and now you shift the goalposts? Which one is it?
If a manager has a set of tactics and ideas he wants the players to implement he has to get full buy in to his ideas. thats at the core of his ability to get a team to play the way he wants. If he cant get full buy in then he is failing. If players arent playing the way her wants then that failure is on the manager.
Buy in is hugely important, players have to believe in an idea and then in turn if they do believe in those ideas they do whats wanted.
The players have had to fight their way to this level every year of their footballing life from age 5 all the way through to making it. Every training session, every junior game, every academy, every regional representative session, all the way.
The lazy players argument is like the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff argument.
Buy in is hugely important, players have to believe in an idea and then in turn if they do believe in those ideas they do whats wanted.
The players have had to fight their way to this level every year of their footballing life from age 5 all the way through to making it. Every training session, every junior game, every academy, every regional representative session, all the way.
The lazy players argument is like the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff argument.
Only Bruno and Rashford left. Then the ten hag revolution will be complete.
Both Hannibal and Reguilon are new here and haven't bought in yet. They will learn, give them time.
Rashford, Shaw and Martial have all played for the last 5 managers.
Dalot, Lindelof, Wan Bissaka and McTominay have played under the last 4 managers.
Fernandes and Sancho have played under the last 3 managers.
9 of the main first team have had numerous managers, yet the team is still performing in the same poor way.
Of the players I have just listed, I can safely say yes they are lazy. I have seen plenty of games where each and every one of them players has done very lazy stuff.
They have all done at least one of the following on countless occasions. Not tracking runners, not tracking back, not pressing, letting opponents run past them, walking around the pitch half arsed, sulking instead of trying.
My God you are really quite something.Side note. ETH was bought in to make us a better football team. That’s all that matters.
If we don't batter Burnley, I can't decide if I'll need a couple weeks away from here or if I'll be chomping at the bit to see people losing their minds on here.
One point about the players ETH signed being lazy. They’re not. Casemiro and Eriksen don’t seem to have the engine they need to work as hard as we need them to. Which I put down mainly to their age. Neither of them ever had a reputation for being anything other than hard working before they joined us anyway. They also seem to bring out the worst in each other as Casemiro’s lack of mobility and Eriksen’s lack of physicality means they each need to work much harder than they ever used to, at an age where the opposite is more likely to happen.
Antony, Malacia, Varane, Hojlund, Mount, Amrabat and Martinez aren’t lazy. Nor is Weghorst (who was shit, not lazy) or Reguilon. Quite the opposite. These are all well known to be hardworking players.
The players who have been most conspicuously lacking in effort were all here when ETH took the job and he either hasn’t been able to replace them yet (McT, Martial, Sancho) or seems to be willing to accept laziness off the ball in return for productivity on it (Rashford)
Antony, Malacia, Varane, Hojlund, Mount, Amrabat and Martinez aren’t lazy. Nor is Weghorst (who was shit, not lazy) or Reguilon. Quite the opposite. These are all well known to be hardworking players.
The players who have been most conspicuously lacking in effort were all here when ETH took the job and he either hasn’t been able to replace them yet (McT, Martial, Sancho) or seems to be willing to accept laziness off the ball in return for productivity on it (Rashford)
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How is the goalpost shifted when I indeed said "tend to". At the very least try to understand the meaning of the words you quote.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a team decline as much as ours. We’ve gone through different profile of managers and neither have worked so far. I have a lot more confidence in ETH than I did with any of the others. But this squad is so lazy and don’t want to work hard for each other. Rashford for example should be showing an example since he’s one of the only one that’s survived every manager but yet he just strolls around the pitch because he knows his name is always the first on the team sheet. We need to start rotating to keep the players focused and motivated.
If ETH stood in between Rashford and the new contract, he would have got kicked out. You don't mess with our poster boy.
I don't think we can pin everything on ETH. With new players and the contract extensions, I am sure ETH will be forced to make some compromises, based on how many signings the club are ready to make, able to negotiate and pay up. Lot of factors go into every signing.
I am sure all previous managers had to make those compromises.
Yea, true. But Dalot is more effective attacking as a fullback, that is why I choose him. Ideally, we should go in the market for someone like frimpong that can give us more attacking quality. To balance having mount as an inverted right attacking mid, a player like Dalot makes more sense than AWB
If you’re demotivated and have no belief you are naturally less alert. We react poorly to setbacks because of this. The goal against Arsenal being disallowed/penalty against Bayern etc. Get a win tomorrow, get some players back, get on a run and the confidence will return.
He can’t put a gun to their head…
And there’s such a thing as resting on your laurels.
He doesn't seem to trust the younger players. He has shown that by that fact that he played the 442 diamond against Brighton as Anthony was not available.
Maybe Pellestri and Hanibal are just not good enough, but you have to think it is better to include one young player than knows his position, rather than change into a formation the team has not played before. And the player he brought in was McTominay!!!
I get that but I think he ultimately has to take responsibility. It's not as though he's not had many of his players come in and this is still an Ole team.If ETH stood in between Rashford and the new contract, he would have got kicked out. You don't mess with our poster boy.
I don't think we can pin everything on ETH. With new players and the contract extensions, I am sure ETH will be forced to make some compromises, based on how many signings the club are ready to make, able to negotiate and pay up. Lot of factors go into every signing.
I am sure all previous managers had to make those compromises.
It was the same with Jose and Ole too. Build a squad or first 11 and you can't complain that a team you've built it full of snakes or they are lazy as that's on the manager (though I think that pressure should be taken off the manager and more onto the club but that's a whole other discussion).
I think we are at a stage where we Simply don’t have enough players capable of playing the way the manager seems to intend. It’s like FM, where you have each players suitability rating for their given role, our full backs are a major issue, because the way we want to play out from the back, we need full backs who don’t give the ball away and take up smart positions. You can say Shaw does a lot of that, but he’s so hit and miss. Right now the only positions I’m confident we have the right profile player for are LCB (martinez) DM (casemiro, assuming the correct profile player beside him, which amrabat may be) and ST (Hojlund).
I dont think they are lazy, they just dont know what they are doing. You only need to look at how Eriksen defends to see that. It is not his game.
Then you have Casemiro who looks like he is running in sand.
Martinez is way off the pace after injury and Lindelöf is an expert in being in and around the action, but never committing himself to a challenge and thus never looks like he's making a mistake.
Then you have Casemiro who looks like he is running in sand.
Martinez is way off the pace after injury and Lindelöf is an expert in being in and around the action, but never committing himself to a challenge and thus never looks like he's making a mistake.
He was also an expert in knowing when to drop principles and go back to basics to get a result. I remember us losing three games in a row in the 90’s 5-0 to Newcastle, 6-3 to Southampton and 2-1 I think to Chelsea. Next game we just ground out a 1-0 win v Arsenal to get back on track. Sometimes you have to drop the principles.
Maybe he isnt actually motivating them the right way.
Resting on your laurels after the habits formed from the amount of work and effort they have had to put in to get to where they are, cant see it when its so many players.
Those habits etc dont go away over night.
Too many players being listed in these threads for it to be the simplistic "players are lazy" argument. It just doesnt hold any water for me.
You can’t force effort. You can motivate all you want but if an athlete doesn’t want it for themselves there’s nothing as a coach you can do about it other than get rid of them, and we can’t get rid of the ones who aren’t motivated because every other team sees the film and knows their wages.
All of human history is full of people getting complacent. Especially when they’re overpaid.
i've been beating this drum since week 1 that some players are just not putting in a shift .....rashford defensively has been poor same goes for Antony
the midfield has been shocking...ffs just look at the mctominay incident which there in summarizes the entire issue. It's not the fuking tactics, it's the players not putting in a proper shift.
you think fecking keane, butt, scholes would have just let the brighton player goes past him up the line and just slowly fecking jogged back??? hell no. keane would have clipped him OR he would have run Scott's neck for fecking jogging back
don't over complicated it right now. the issue clearly is effort, the one fecking thing on the pitch they can control and they don't give a toss right now.
the midfield has been shocking...ffs just look at the mctominay incident which there in summarizes the entire issue. It's not the fuking tactics, it's the players not putting in a proper shift.
you think fecking keane, butt, scholes would have just let the brighton player goes past him up the line and just slowly fecking jogged back??? hell no. keane would have clipped him OR he would have run Scott's neck for fecking jogging back
don't over complicated it right now. the issue clearly is effort, the one fecking thing on the pitch they can control and they don't give a toss right now.
EtH did say in his press conference that if just one or two players don't give 100% the whole thing falls apart in a coordinated defence. He seemed really pissed off at the first goal vs Bayern and not because of the huge Onana mistake but before Sane got his shot away, which suggests he felt either Rashford or Eriksen didn't do enough.
Do you mean not fit enough? I think there’s a valid club criticism there that has gone back years re conditioning.
They aren’t lazy though, some of them are weak mentally and their heads can drop but this group (bar Sancho and McT) I think genuinely want to be here and work hard. I’m not sure some of them have the personality in the face of adversity to succeed and some just aren’t good enough or have passed their peak but I don’t think it’s laziness.
They aren’t lazy though, some of them are weak mentally and their heads can drop but this group (bar Sancho and McT) I think genuinely want to be here and work hard. I’m not sure some of them have the personality in the face of adversity to succeed and some just aren’t good enough or have passed their peak but I don’t think it’s laziness.
That's also true for managers who somehow forget that they are supposed to manage.
One of any managers most important tasks is getting buy in to their ideas. Its the managers job to get the players excited about his tactics and find the players motivations be it intrinsic or extrinsic and use them to help the players excel. Thats a basic.
Heres the problem with the lazy players argument.
There are so many of them being listed in here that means we have signed lazy players.
This argument has been appearing every year since Fergie left so we seem to keep signing lazy players or players who become lazy.
Our lazy players on international duty under other managers are putting in big shifts. Why do they do it for another manager but not ours?
Other teams are seeing their teams perform without the lazy tag being thrown at them and we see them improving.
Other teams are seeing their players buy in to their managers tactics and put in the work.
Our team isnt.
Again saying its because the players are lazy is in itself a really lazy argument, its just so simplistic.
Something is wrong with ETH
When I see evidence of that, then you’ll have a point.
You cannot force a player to do so if they don’t want to. It is one of the basic things you learn when you coach. It’s the whole reason there’s the phrase about how “you can lead a horse to water, but can’t make it drink”.
I’ve not stated who I think is lazy.
You mean why do they do it for their national team and not their club team. Probably because they know it’s easier to be dropped from a national team than sold by MUFC.
I didnt say you had said who was lazy, I mentioned a couple of times lots of players are named in this thread as being lazy.
I hope Im wrong, Ive been wrong plenty of times before.
However right now ETH has lost me, I just dont see any progress from him.
Which applies to your own claim, you have no more evidence of complacency. I actually agree with the point of yours that I quoted but you have to accept that it applies to everyone; sports managers included. Personally I don't even think that it's a case of complacency from the manager or the players, our system from preseason looked easy to exploit, there is by default too much space in the middle any team with good technicians will exploit that until we go with something more compact. In transition we need to pass the ball faster instead of so many players touching the ball 3 or 4 times before releasing it.
So why had a team that was putting in the effort last year, suddenly downed tools?
I wouldn't make the blanket statement that they're all lazy. That feels a bit of a lazy claim in itself.
Some players are lazy in their defensive duties. Some are lacking a strong mentality in games and just switch off time and time again. That's what is probably leading to our soft streak and conceding goals in patterns such as when the opposition score. That's classic switching off because you're still patting yourself on the back. A very human trait but not one fit for elite level competitiveness.
Some players are lazy in their defensive duties. Some are lacking a strong mentality in games and just switch off time and time again. That's what is probably leading to our soft streak and conceding goals in patterns such as when the opposition score. That's classic switching off because you're still patting yourself on the back. A very human trait but not one fit for elite level competitiveness.
I would put it on Eriksen. From this angle, i think Rashford thought that Eriksen was going to come take care of it.
The tackle that Eriksen put on Sane was pathetic and he then didn't get back after.
At 31, Eriksen is being asked to play a role he has never played in his career. He just doent know how to defend.
it’s so hard to support a team that essentially can’t be arsed to do the very basics .. I think they’d be easier to support if they were doing the basics right, but they just didn’t have the quality to win.. but this is just so tiring to watch, team after team running through at will while we amble around after them.. nobody actually committing to a tackle, just letting them do whatever they like. I don’t understand why Ten Hag isn’t dragging off McTominay the second he sees that happening on the pitch in that clip.. he isn’t wanted by the club, he has zero motivation to play well.. Hannibal is a better option at this point
First thing is that ten Hag come into the season with a system that didn't work (yet/with those players, at least) and that clearly affected confidence, which takes a while to regain and we've not had a helpful set of fixtures to do it, particularly with so many injuries to starting players. Second thing is that the word ten Hag used today was "determination", and I think that's much closer to the point than "laziness". First goal against Bayern you can pick any one of a few players who put in half-hearted challenges. Second goal is an even bigger clusterfeck, Casemiro apparently not noticing Gnabry with a solid ten yards space all around coming into the area and ball-watching as Musiala takes about four touches to turn Dalot (Eriksen only gets back when the ball's already in the net). Players lacking that focus and bite is also on the manager, but it's also not something you can just turn around in a day.
Going forward it's obvious we're still pretty reliant on Rashford and Bruno not having off-days, but hopefully that'll improve with Hojlund settling, the midfield getting more stability, etc.
Going forward it's obvious we're still pretty reliant on Rashford and Bruno not having off-days, but hopefully that'll improve with Hojlund settling, the midfield getting more stability, etc.
Look how Reguilon runs. He's been a breath of fresh air, and he's not even that good. It's pathetic the effort our players put out (besides some obvious exceptions). I know it is ETH's job to get them going, but it has been this way for years. Look at Wolves, Brighton, etc..vs United this year. They out played us with energy and passion.
It’s late and I’m tired so not the best time to be pondering the topic, but is it possible laziness is becoming intertwined with a sense of entitlement?
Sometimes get the impression certain players think they’re better than they really are just because they are wearing a United shirt. They don’t feel the need to try hard because they’ve already made it.
Sort of like a ‘how dare he shoulder me off the ball, do you not know who I am?’ type attitude. Get the same feeling when passes are overhit or a move breaks down. Rather than applaud the effort and rally the troops, like other teams do, our players’ heads seem to drop in an air of ‘why should I bother, you’re not good enough to play alongside me.’
Or could just be laziness.
Sometimes get the impression certain players think they’re better than they really are just because they are wearing a United shirt. They don’t feel the need to try hard because they’ve already made it.
Sort of like a ‘how dare he shoulder me off the ball, do you not know who I am?’ type attitude. Get the same feeling when passes are overhit or a move breaks down. Rather than applaud the effort and rally the troops, like other teams do, our players’ heads seem to drop in an air of ‘why should I bother, you’re not good enough to play alongside me.’
Or could just be laziness.
It's an unbalanced team at the moment. We're suppose to rely on Rashford due to his performances last season, we can't afford not to as that would weaken us from last year but at the same time us relying on him is probably not helping as team play isn't his strongest contribute. He seems incapable of establishing or sustaining partnerships on the field. We used to see Bruno feed him a lot but Bruno is a similar situation in that he has to make shift in all sorts of roles and he is probably tired from being overplayed. He hasn't been very good for a while, and I'm a fan of him. Casemiro seems stuck between his poor defensive efforts and wanting himself to be the hero, sloppy on the ball because he lacks Fred's legs who is gone. Licha hasn't been good and a bit slow on the ball, seems to learn from Lindelof which isn't good.
We let go of Jones this transfer window. We're so far behind the pace on the ins and outs that these struggles have to be worked through. We still haven't sold Maguire, Martial, McTominay, Lindelof. Players way past the point of turning their stint at United around. So we just go through the motions with this team until a bit more riskier transfer strategy is in place. They "learned" from their mistakes when Van Gaal got rid of the whole squad, and decided that's it. Phil Jones then for another 5 years. It's less risky, but in a competitive sport it's borderline a crime, at this point I just find it boring.
We let go of Jones this transfer window. We're so far behind the pace on the ins and outs that these struggles have to be worked through. We still haven't sold Maguire, Martial, McTominay, Lindelof. Players way past the point of turning their stint at United around. So we just go through the motions with this team until a bit more riskier transfer strategy is in place. They "learned" from their mistakes when Van Gaal got rid of the whole squad, and decided that's it. Phil Jones then for another 5 years. It's less risky, but in a competitive sport it's borderline a crime, at this point I just find it boring.
Is this the same squad that loads of you lot were saying things like "most likeable squad in years" last season?
We are trying to move to a new style of play that our manager thinks is going to offer more sustainable success, have a horrendous injury list and new players in key positions.
We are what 5 or 6 games into the season and could have very easily beaten Arsenal in the Emirates and gotten a draw from Bayern in Germany. Just relax a bit.
We are trying to move to a new style of play that our manager thinks is going to offer more sustainable success, have a horrendous injury list and new players in key positions.
We are what 5 or 6 games into the season and could have very easily beaten Arsenal in the Emirates and gotten a draw from Bayern in Germany. Just relax a bit.
Bolded answers all, but if the team isn't buying into Ten Hag, which the recent "leaks" does point to, means either they don't agree with the tactics and aren't putting in the shift or the tactics aren't working .
From what I've seen from a majority of these players I'm going with the former.
Why? Because there does seem to be a mentality of "oh I don't like playing this way or conforming to these tactics, oh so does some of the other lads. Let's make noise to the media, get him out and get a fresh start. Maybe we won't need to work as hard."
There have been players here that have outlasted 4-5 managers, that's ridiculous to trust them when I've seen nothing to suggest that they care for the club, the badge or anything other way than their paycheck.
Every year there is criticism of players not putting in the work or not working hard for the badge and the team.
So what's been the counter argument?
Leaks about the players falling out or not agreeing with the manager, if you don't agree with 4-5 different managers then maybe just maybe you are the problem.