I made a thread about how bad we are at it a few months ago & was told to pipe down because we are fantastic at it. As always, I was right and the top reds were wrong.
It was only a matter of time before our incessant adherence to playing it out of the back bit us in the ass
- Thread starter calodo2003
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The only thing which was wrong is Fred should NEVER be playing so deep. If that's Matic in his place, there is no problem.
We can't exactly go long either with the players we have up front.
We can't exactly go long either with the players we have up front.
OkI'm happy that we do it, but we will of course get punished for it from time to time because none of our midfield bar Pogba and Matic are press resistant. Shame Matic is over the hill. It obviously looks worse when Fred is our deepest lying midfielder, because he can't pass, control the ball and also is quite weak. Nothing annoys more more than pointlessly handing the ball over to the opponent by punting the ball towards our small forwards. Marcos Rojo was the absolute worst culprit.
We did it under SAF also. Difference was we had Carrick and Scholes. But even they weren't perfect. I remember Carrick ruining our perfect defensive record in the last group game in the CL one season, losing the ball to an opponent when under pressure, resulting in the only goal conceded in the last game in that group stage.
We did it under SAF also. Difference was we had Carrick and Scholes. But even they weren't perfect. I remember Carrick ruining our perfect defensive record in the last group game in the CL one season, losing the ball to an opponent when under pressure, resulting in the only goal conceded in the last game in that group stage.
Glad I was able to further showcase your footballing acumen.
I'm ok with it. We immediately surrender possession when we go long when Cavani isnt in the side as most of our forwards (particularly Greenwood and Rashford) don't even attempt to compete aerially. We spend so much of a game giving the ball away and trying to win it back, that I don't mind us attempting to keep hold of the ball and working possession from back to front. We do mix this up on occasions by going medium long trying to pick out Shaw and AWB out on the touchline but its not an option thats always on
The intention is not bad, playing out from the back is a must for dominant high possession teams, the implementation is whats wrong.
Seriously I cant believe we are so bad at it, it seems any pressing team whatsoever puts us under a lot of preassure.
Seriously I cant believe we are so bad at it, it seems any pressing team whatsoever puts us under a lot of preassure.
Who are these lesser technical players? Which club has a player worse than Fred at receiving the ball in front of our goal?
It’s still very much a work in progress but we aren’t anywhere near as bad at playing out from the back as your making out.
Aside from Leicester and I think Tottenham (both Fred iirc) what games have we made a mess of this? We play this way every single game remember.
I doubt every team we play is taller than us.
For example we played Arsenal at OT. Pogba played on the left high up against Bellerin. There is no way in hell Bellerin would beat Pogba in the air. but we still carried on with the usual passes around the back.
I'm not so sure because it has been quite notable that many teams have had a clear pressing game against us. They know Maguire and Lindelof can be slow to make decisions, that AWB can be clumsy, that Fred and McTominay are not naturals at receiving the ball in difficult positions. There was nothing particularly novel in the Leicester game, they simply did it better than most as they are a better football team and Fred compounded things with an individual mistake. I'm not sure much would be taken from that which the opposition did not already know, I'd like to think opposition managers are worthy of that type of credit.
However, as much as we let in that goal, the coach has to consider all the goals and play as have had by regularly playing short and the players we have. If we made a drastic change to our play style then there are ramifications well beyond one goal. How would that effect our goal threat? Would it concede possession and put our defence under pressure more consistently? Would anybody buy into it - fans and players included? Those are big questions. There might be a few positive outcomes but there are likely to be many things to question.
Good, measured points here.
Ole has so many flaws which we’ve all battered him for. Shocking in game management, substitutes, lack of coaching in terms of attacking patterns etc. However, him asking us to play from the back the majority of the time is not a flaw. Every top team bar Atletico does it, exactly the same way we did. Goalkeeper to CB, CB to DM, who spreads it wide right away, breaking a line of the opposition press and creating overloads in attack.
What happened against Leicester is a reflection on Fred being an unsuitable midfielder for us, and that he needs to be replaced with someone more adept on the ball (and better in defence too of course), like Ndidi, Kessie or Rice. It’s no reflection on the principle of playing out from the back. At all costs, we cannot hoof it up as a primary source of getting up the pitch.
What happened against Leicester is a reflection on Fred being an unsuitable midfielder for us, and that he needs to be replaced with someone more adept on the ball (and better in defence too of course), like Ndidi, Kessie or Rice. It’s no reflection on the principle of playing out from the back. At all costs, we cannot hoof it up as a primary source of getting up the pitch.
I don't think 'playing it out from the back' is the issue per se. It's where we do it, when we do it and the mobility (or not) of players.
Where. Don't do it inside your box, stupid. We need to be further out. Not much and could still lose it but big difference losing it 30 yards out instead of <18 yards.
When. Henderson should see Leicester pressing and shoo them out, then launch it. Maguire should see that Fred and the other 3 defenders had players close.. so hoof it (on that occasion).
Mobility. Our players get the ball and stand still. The players who could receive the ball stand still. Move you idiots!
I can't remember the game (in Feb), but when Maguire and Lindelof got the ball, they were coming forward a few yards or moving it sideways a bit... all creates different angles as opposed to standing still which makes it piss easy to pressure us. Also MFers were making little runs, offering themselves, creating a little space and laying it off to another defender/MFer.
I remember watching thinking "this is night and day better". And once you've done 2, 3, 4 passes ok, you're usually in midfield and opponents start dropping a bit.
So by all means play it out but not in the box, mix it up (pressure = hoof it) and move (with and without the ball). It's not fecking rocket science.
Forget doing small box 9v2 routines. Practice 20-30 yard passes with pressure
Where. Don't do it inside your box, stupid. We need to be further out. Not much and could still lose it but big difference losing it 30 yards out instead of <18 yards.
When. Henderson should see Leicester pressing and shoo them out, then launch it. Maguire should see that Fred and the other 3 defenders had players close.. so hoof it (on that occasion).
Mobility. Our players get the ball and stand still. The players who could receive the ball stand still. Move you idiots!
I can't remember the game (in Feb), but when Maguire and Lindelof got the ball, they were coming forward a few yards or moving it sideways a bit... all creates different angles as opposed to standing still which makes it piss easy to pressure us. Also MFers were making little runs, offering themselves, creating a little space and laying it off to another defender/MFer.
I remember watching thinking "this is night and day better". And once you've done 2, 3, 4 passes ok, you're usually in midfield and opponents start dropping a bit.
So by all means play it out but not in the box, mix it up (pressure = hoof it) and move (with and without the ball). It's not fecking rocket science.
Forget doing small box 9v2 routines. Practice 20-30 yard passes with pressure
I didn't include Pogba in the list because, as you say, he's fairly good in the air. Scott too but maybe plays too deep.
Fred's first touch is woeful for an elite level midfielder, causes so many issues all over the pitch, especially when we play out from the back.
Nothing wrong with the personnel, they are all good enough to do it. If anybody really wants to know why we are so bad at playing from the back the following two images should summarise it pretty well.
Taken almost 10 seconds apart before the Leicester goal. Other than Fred, not one of the 8 players in shot has moved more than about an inch. Meanwhile two Leicester players have appeared in our box from fecking nowhere.
Taken almost 10 seconds apart before the Leicester goal. Other than Fred, not one of the 8 players in shot has moved more than about an inch. Meanwhile two Leicester players have appeared in our box from fecking nowhere.
That’s shocking. Other teams see this on tape & plan their attack against us, how can we not see such & coach it out of us?Nothing wrong with the personnel, they are all good enough to do it. If anybody really wants to know why we are so bad at playing from the back the following two images should summarise it pretty well.
Taken almost 10 seconds apart before the Leicester goal. Other than Fred, not one of the 8 players in shot has moved more than about an inch. Meanwhile two Leicester players have appeared in our box from fecking nowhere.
Painful to watch. The Utd defenders are not fluid enough in possession to play out from the back with the exeption of Shaw. They get too easily closed down and it looks really amateurish alot of the time. Not sure why they persist. I think Ole does it to facilitate his counter attacking philosophy. The higher up the pitch that the opposition press will result in more space to hit them quickly in behind. Good in theory but you need skillful ball playing defenders and Utd don't have enough of them.
Playing out from the back is an acceptable approach, if like City we have the players to carry it off, but we are 'challenged' in those areas. So unless we inject some alternative methods of, or a range of skills in, playing out; we are going to incur the sort of problems like Fred had and lose the ball in important areas. When teams like Newcastle and Sheffield United have had us rattled with their pressing ploys, its time to look at new methods.
We seem to have a settled back four now, so surely some imagination, or a ' playing out play book' especially with Henderson in goal, could be attempted. This would contain a variety of moves and strategies and certain 'counter-pressing' ploys, and certain 'no, no's'...like giving the ball to Fred when he is still fully facing his own goal are dropped completely.
We seem to have a settled back four now, so surely some imagination, or a ' playing out play book' especially with Henderson in goal, could be attempted. This would contain a variety of moves and strategies and certain 'counter-pressing' ploys, and certain 'no, no's'...like giving the ball to Fred when he is still fully facing his own goal are dropped completely.
We should be hoofing the ball up to big Tony Martial instead I’m guessing.
Not virtually all the time. Just like we shouldn’t be playing it short out of the back virtually all of the time. A little variation & less predictability would definitely benefit us overall.
Only a matter of time???? Its been biting us in the ass since he started it.
My arse tightens every time I see our keeper roll it to the CBs. I get the benefit of breaking the press because it essentially creates a mini counter attack once you do, but I hate it at the same time.
I'd say it only works half of the time, the rest of the time we concede possession.
I'd say it only works half of the time, the rest of the time we concede possession.
We really don’t have the players to make decent use of a long ball up the pitch, which is presumably why we have an incessant adherence to playing it out from the back. But I guess that doesn’t matter when you’re throwing out baseless “we shoulds” on the internets.
Two years ago, we apparently did. This constant playing out of the back is a very recent phenomenon for many teams. Please don’t act like punting is a relic of a bygone era. Square pegs don’t fit into round holes, no matter how hard one tries to force them. We paid the price this past match due to our insistence on one ‘pattern of play.’ It just seems commonsensical to have more unpredictability in our build up.
Oh God how I have been crying so hard because of this. We are the most predictable team in possession. I think Ole is trying to get the team out of the habit of launching the ball forward and winning the second ball because as we all know, we aren't or have never been that good at winning second balls. In the last couple of seasons, we have tried to play out from the back and it has been quite troubling to watch. Although that's the case, I think we will learn to play around the press in sometime. Our only problem right now is we do not have players in the back line or Mcfred who can actually carry the ball forward which is quite damaging. The habit of playing out from the back is something every good team across the world is trying to do and it is a good way of holding possession and building up play. In the future when we have a good defensive midfielder and 2 forward thinking #8s, we'll do better at this. I wouldn't blame Ole of thinking to instill this quality in us. I know it is a tedious process now but it will get better in time I'm sure.
The point is to attract pressure though. It's meant to draw the defending team out of position, and then you play through the press. As opposed to lumping it long to Greenwood or Martial.
The issue is we're not good at it!
I think the key is mixing it up. If you do anything the same way over and over again, the opposition know what to expect and how to counter it. Sometimes you have to just clear the ball and clear your head at the same time, then try and win the second ball in midfield.
Having said that, we can't even win posession from our own throw-ins so who knows?
Having said that, we can't even win posession from our own throw-ins so who knows?
So you don't think the lack of movement from Utd defenders may have anything to do with fatigue from a difficult Thursday Europa game?Nothing wrong with the personnel, they are all good enough to do it. If anybody really wants to know why we are so bad at playing from the back the following two images should summarise it pretty well.
Taken almost 10 seconds apart before the Leicester goal. Other than Fred, not one of the 8 players in shot has moved more than about an inch. Meanwhile two Leicester players have appeared in our box from fecking nowhere.
I’m glad we are trying to play it out from the back then simply booting it back to the opposition. Fred made a terrible mistake at the weekend but that’s the first one for a while. Are we suggesting we want long ball football now? If you play out from the back eventually the opposition will catch you out. People get so focused on one mistake in one game.
If it was that much of a problem we'd be talking about it all the time. Every team plays out from the back now.
That isn't going to make our opponents go easy on us is it? We still face teams wanting to beat us, so either we need better coaching, or better rotation. Either way, it's not the individual players' fault when all of them are standing still like that.
Yep - movement off the ball is a big area we need to improve on. From the above, I hadn't realised from the angles we got on the day and just blamed Fred but Maguire has been a bit Sunday League there by actively moving forwards with the ball and making the space smaller for Fred (look at where he is in both pictures + how close Fred has come in as well). The knock on of that, which isn't his fault really but is caused by him moving forwards too far, is he then also can't defend from the bad pass from Fred as he's too high.Nothing wrong with the personnel, they are all good enough to do it. If anybody really wants to know why we are so bad at playing from the back the following two images should summarise it pretty well.
Taken almost 10 seconds apart before the Leicester goal. Other than Fred, not one of the 8 players in shot has moved more than about an inch. Meanwhile two Leicester players have appeared in our box from fecking nowhere.
Just curious where you want them to run? The two full backs are holding their position out wide unmarked, the centrebacks split ok with enough space between them and matic waiting behind Fred for a ball possible back from a fullback.
it was also set up ok and Fred needed a quick touch and play it wide or wide first time, then the game opens up. He actually had a shit touch and run back towards goal and then granny passed to Henderson, I can’t see where you want the players to move to, or do you mean close down and fill the box once Fred loses it?
I'd rather take a couple of mistakes like Fred's over playing percentage football, hoping to win the second ball from punts upfield. I'm not saying the latter isn't a legitimate way of playing football, but it is necessarily a limited one: any team preferring that over playing out from the back has a certain ceiling, way below the very best sides. It also invites pressure, just in a different way, especially against sides who are strong on the ball.
This. We have so many posts bemoaning our inability to get through a low block. So to counter this we try to get the low block teams to press us higher and leave gaps behind for our attackers to exploit. If that pass sunday had gone to someone with more technical ability in that space, a quick touch and pass wide to AWB as seen in that second picture leaves 4 leicester players out of position and a huge gap between their midfield and defence (where we'd normally see Bruno operate), and if the defence steps up to close that gap they in turn leave space behind for our attackers to run into.
The issue is personnel, rather than the tactic itself. Fred should never be the person collecting that ball from deep, but even then while I wouldnt expect him to see the full pitch and what was happening, I also wouldnt expect him to feck it up as royally as he did. Its just one of those things, and its a shame it happened in a knock out game.
It's really not fair to say no one has moved. You can quite clearly see that Telles has bent overNothing wrong with the personnel, they are all good enough to do it. If anybody really wants to know why we are so bad at playing from the back the following two images should summarise it pretty well.
Taken almost 10 seconds apart before the Leicester goal. Other than Fred, not one of the 8 players in shot has moved more than about an inch. Meanwhile two Leicester players have appeared in our box from fecking nowhere.
It does always make me uncomfortable seeing the short passes in and around our box with players pressing - in general though our players have actually been pretty good at it and there are not many goals we have given away as a direct result, obviously Sunday is one of the exceptions
As to why we do it, the reason is simply to try and play through pressing teams by inviting them on and trying to hit them with a fast transition which is Ole's prefered attacking style
As to why we do it, the reason is simply to try and play through pressing teams by inviting them on and trying to hit them with a fast transition which is Ole's prefered attacking style
We are not the only team to give goals away like this. Arsenal springs to mind on a regular basis. I remember Liverpool giving away two soft goals against City with the GK messing around. I think only City are really at an elite level passing from the GK upwards, but all their players just ooze class and confidence on the ball.
Then why are they being played if they arent fit enough to do the job? Why are the tactics asking them to do things they cant do if they are too tired? If fatigue is an issue then why werent more players rested going into the 2nd leg of the Sociedad game that we were 4 - 0 up in?