It's tough going - What side of the fence are you on

[Brophs]

We're a long, long way back in the storey table...

I've not seen it of late. Link?

Either way I expect us to improve quite a bit in the second half of the season. I don't fancy Spurs all that much and both Liverpool and Everton are unlikely to keep up this pace. I don't think it's going to be comfortable but I can see us sneaking it.

 

[Agent Red]

I still believe he can turn this around. We might only finish in the top four this season but if he's given the chance to shape the squad in the summer I think he'll make a much better fist of it thsn the summer just gone. He wasn't my pick as manager but I firmly believe that the fact he might be struggling at the moment doesn't mean he won't grow into the job and become a good United manager. Obviously a couple more signings like Fellaini would make me seriously doubt what he's doing but if he's given the backing he needs then it could be a different story next season (though still think it's likely we'll miss out on the title as here'll probably be a large turnover of olayers and that takes time to bed in).

None of that is to say I don't have serious doubts. My concerns about the style of football haven't been allayed but it's early days yet. If we're still playing this way by the end of next season then I'd be the first to say it's probably been a failed experiment.

This is my position as well. The summer was a massive feck up and it's frustrating because I think many of us could see it at the time, but we are where we are and the real test will be the next summer where Moyes and Woodward have a chance to show they've learnt lessons and are ready to pick things up and go again.

On the style of play I am less concerned as long as the results are coming. Priority is to build up the confidence of the youth players (Januzaj being a highlight of these otherwise bleak few months) and hopefully signing some top quality performers to raise the spirits and standard of the first XI. It's unfortunate that throwing money at the problem is so often the answer but looking at how a player like Ozil has lifted those around him at Arsenal it shows that you don't have do a full on City or Chelsea style splurge to transform things, so hopefully Moyes won't be too far away if he has a strong summer.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

I've not seen it of late. Link?

Either way I expect us to improve quite a bit in the second half of the season. I don't fancy Spurs all that much and both Liverpool and Everton are unlikely to keep up this pace. I don't think it's going to be comfortable but I can see us sneaking it.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/storeytime-2013-14.379383/page-2#post-14731846

That was before the Spurs game, so I think we'll be 13 points behind Liverpool now.

 

[Brophs]

Same argument can be made for us and Arsenal. Welbeck has been excellent with Rooney recently as well. Can a RvP returning from injury really surpass what Welbeck has been offering you recently?

Not sure what you mean? If you mean will RvP, in his first few games back from injury, be better than a full fit, match sharp Welbeck in the last few weeks then maybe not. But once he's fit and sharp he's better than all but two or three strikers in the PL, of which Welbeck isn't one (as good a player as I think he is).

 

[Getsme]

Well, I phrased my last sentence wrongly. It had nothing to do with whether we sack him or not. What I meant to say was, with the league and FA Cup gone (I'm not even thinking of the CL to be honest) that spot in next year's CL is now the most important thing for us. I think even those of us who are backing him till now will hold our hands up and say he's failed if he finishes outside the top four. Hell, even he'd say that, I bet. Although I can see us sticking with him even if we don't get CL.

Anyway, heard a few boos at fulltime but to be fair, it wasn't a deafening one. Considering it was our 4th loss in 6 home games, I thought that was a positive sign. Not much we can do now but support the club, as some have said here.

I honestly can't see him staying if we finish outside the top 4. It would be far worse than a failure to be fair, it would be a catastrophe for the club. The only reason the club would stand by him would be if the board were unwilling to spend money on new signings.
I agree with you, it's important we stand by the club, and thankfully like yourself most will. However failure brings with it many ugly issues and if these aren't addressed then it could be a long road back to the top.
Saying that, the signs good, and it looks like club are willing to spend big. Will it be Moyes who gets to spend it? Who knows, let's hope he can turn the season around.

 

[redpie]

For me Moyes was the wrong choice but we have to give him this season for free & take our lumps with humility.

 

[Barney]

Not sure what you mean? If you mean will RvP, in his first few games back from injury, be better than a full fit, match sharp Welbeck in the last few weeks then maybe not. But once he's fit and sharp he's better than all but two or three strikers in the PL, of which Welbeck isn't one (as good a player as I think he is).

Yeah, you interpreted it right.

 

[Brophs]

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/storeytime-2013-14.379383/page-2#post-14731846

That was before the Spurs game, so I think we'll be 13 points behind Liverpool now.

Yeah it looks a bit grim but they've got both city and Chelsea at home in the last five or six games of the season. I can see both of those taking points and us besting Liverpool at OT. As I said, it's far from easy but it can be done.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Yeah it looks a bit grim but they've got both city and Chelsea at home in the last five or six games of the season. I can see both of those taking points and us besting Liverpool at OT. As I said, it's far from easy but it can be done.

It can be done, but the odds are against us (literally).

 

[Cal?]

It can be done, but the odds are against us (literally).

It really depends what happens in the next few weeks, both in terms of management and signings.

 

[jim]

Happily, while United have a reputation of a club that has patience towards managers, the last time we really needed to show it was a long time ago. The whole football industry was more patient back then. Obviously I'm not saying we should be like everyone else, but we shouldn't stick to something just because it was the way we worked 20-30-40 years ago. We were also supposed to be in a far healthier state than we were when we signed previous managers since the second Busby retirement. It requires a lot more consideration than just sticking to old values.

I'm not really fussed about old values or whatever - I just mean that if we're going to give Moyes less than 6 months, can we justify giving the next manager longer than that? Are we going to sack them after 6 months as well? And if we do that, then who will actually want to become the next manager?

 

[Enigma_87]

Well we have the League Cup and the Champions League where with a decent draw and some luck we can get far. Otherwise this season is good as gone in terms of silverware.

Moyes may as well finish the season, can't see someone as a stop gap at the moment of quality. At least he knows the squad to make a decent push for the CL.

On the other hand I really can't see any other manager doing worse with what United has as a team at the moment.

4 loss at home in the last 6 games, and Swansea's first in their history against United...Blimey.

 

[CLK_FPC]

Think I agree with most that say whilst he deserves time, there is little evidence to support the notion he can/will turn it around.

Injuries have killed us but we've lost games with those players fit.

Think he looks more overwhelmed than out of his depth, which I suppose can improve with time. But he needs to give up this passive, defeatist approach.

Also regardless of what he's said buying this month is a must, the team isn't good enough he knows that and things will only get worse if we don't make top 4. The CL is a pipe dream so he should focus on the league.

 

[Kag]

Sacking Moyes sets a terrible precedent, and will only make us look stupid when we're left with a choice of Villas-Boas and Roberto Martinez.

Are you implying that this job isn't such a catch? This isn't the player market, this is managing Manchester United. Other than Pep, I think every manager across Europe would be wanking themselves silly at the thought of the United job were it back on the market. I include Jose in that, too. He'd be making calls the next day. Let's not get too depreciative here.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Are you implying that this job isn't such a catch? This isn't the player market, this is managing Manchester United. Other than Pep, I think every manager across Europe would be wanking themselves silly at the thought of the United job were it back on the market. I include Jose in that, too. He'd be making calls the next day. Let's not get too depreciative here.

I'm unsure if managers would be foaming at the mouth to manage us. Following Ferguson was always gonna be a poison chalice. But the manager who follows Moyes will have it better. The squad needs serious investment which we're unlikely to see so we'll have to concentrate on long term prospects. We were never going to see immediate success, so in that respect Moyes was probably the man for the job as he'll stick around.

 

[Kag]

I'm unsure if managers would be foaming at the mouth to manage us. Following Ferguson was always gonna be a poison chalice. But the manager who follows Moyes will have it better. The squad needs serious investment which we're unlikely to see so we'll have to concentrate on long term prospects. We were never going to see immediate success, so in that respect Moyes was probably the man for the job as he'll stick around.

It's Manchester United. An incredible, incredible football club. Yes, I think they'd be foaming at the mouth. Any manager worth their salt would be all over like a rash.

 

[bosnian_red]

Are you implying that this job isn't such a catch? This isn't the player market, this is managing Manchester United. Other than Pep, I think every manager across Europe would be wanking themselves silly at the thought of the United job were it back on the market. I include Jose in that, too. He'd be making calls the next day. Let's not get too depreciative here.

Agree, although the only managers who wouldn't jump on the chance to manage United IMO are Jose (because he only just moved to Chelsea), Rodgers, Pellegrini, Wenger, Ancelotti (he's at Madrid), Guardiola, and Klopp (only because he said he's staying until 2016 at least). Basically only the managers at the other top clubs around the world or our rivals in Rodgers' case. Almost every other manager would jump ship if offered the job probably (arguments can be made for Martinez and Simeone until the end of the season though).

 

[Mockney]

My concerns about the style of football haven't been allayed but it's early days yet. If we're still playing this way by the end of next season then I'd be the first to say it's probably been a failed experiment.

Pretty sure you'd be the last.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

It's Manchester United. An incredible, incredible football club. Yes, I think they'd be foaming at the mouth. Any manager worth their salt would be all over like a rash.

Not when the Glazer's let them know they won't be backed financially to compete with Chelsea, City, Madrid, Barcelona or Bayern.

 

[Kag]

Not when the Glazer's let them know they won't be backed financially to compete with Chelsea, City, Madrid, Barcelona or Bayern.

Well yes, but that is only speculation. We'll know for sure come September.

 

[Amir]

I'm not really fussed about old values or whatever - I just mean that if we're going to give Moyes less than 6 months, can we justify giving the next manager longer than that? Are we going to sack them after 6 months as well? And if we do that, then who will actually want to become the next manager?

If Ole took Cardiff, any one can take United

Seriously though, it should be on an individual basis. A lot of people had doubts over Moyes and six months on, so many have them has been realized. It's not a situation where a manager is good enough for those levels, but possibly just needs time to get it right at anew club. It's a case where you keep wondering if a manager is good enough at all. It's quite possible we've made a horrible error. Waiting and waiting won't make it better, just worse.

 

[Getsme]

It's scary how far we have dropped this season, it's fair to say that it's not entirely Moyes fault, the players and the board have to shoulder some of the responsibility. However at the end of the day it's the responsibility of the manager to get the best out of the team and so far he's not just failed but failed miserably.

He has been unlucky with injuries, RVP, Carrick, Vidic, Rafael have all been injured for long parts off the season. Add to that the terrible form of Evra, Hernandez, Young, Cleverly, and Fellaini to name but a few, our wingers inability to cross a ball past the first man our defenders forgetting how to defend, you can see why the team have been performing below par this season.

But and it's a big but, even when we have had a full squad available to us we have still been terrible, with the exception off a couple off games in Europe, every game I've been to watch or watched on TV have left me feeling frustrated. A number of things make me feel like that, the lack of urgency, our passing, our play in the final third, having no plan B and sometimes no plan A to name but a few.

This is what's frustrating, we can take the results as long as we can see his vision, yet all we are seeing is one directional football, if we can see it then everybody else can, it's as plain as day.

I feel for him, sometimes a great player gets overwhelmed by the size of our club and doesn't make it here, who's to say it isn't the same for a manager.

 

[jim]

Are you implying that this job isn't such a catch? This isn't the player market, this is managing Manchester United. Other than Pep, I think every manager across Europe would be wanking themselves silly at the thought of the United job were it back on the market. I include Jose in that, too. He'd be making calls the next day. Let's not get too depreciative here.

No, of course it is. But there aren't actually many managers out there who fit the bill. Pep and Jose are obviously out, and Klopp made it fairly clear he wasn't interested. There isn't a huge pool of top-quality managers sitting there just waiting for the United job when it becomes free - they would, more than likely, come from a similar background to Moyes. It's a big assumption to think that there's an obvious shoe-in.

 

[redspoony]

For better or worse, he has to be given time.

The football is poor right now and he looks every inch a defeated man.

I do think he will try and bring players in this month; his comments to the media the other day are understandable after the farce of the summer, irrespective of whether we do business or not - he's trying to manage expectations.

My biggest concern is that these players don't look like they believe in what's happening right now.

Yes they're a season older, but they're the champions. We won the league with with IMO a fairly average title winning team by our own standards, and it was SAF who squeezed extra out of them.

In the current squad only Fellaini and, to a point, Januzaj could be considered his players - one has been a triumph, the other a joke (but I hope that changes).

 

[ryan_forlan]

1. Let's buy a good midfielder.
Play Carrick+New Guy+fellaini/cleverly in midfield.
2. Buy Baines at whatever price. play him at LB. Pray Rafael stays fit for 80% of the games.
3. play three upfront, rooney+rvp+welbeck/nani/young. bring januzaj in every games for impact.
4. play evans in every game.

this will give us a good run. that's what we need. the midfield will help us control most games.
we are short on confidence in the final third. Rooney, RVP, baines and rafael, should help with that.

we have to have to buy a new CM and LB in this window.

 

[sully07]

I was and still am a firm advocate of David Moyes and am confident he will turn it round given time. The worst thing we can do as a club is go through the 1 to 2 year cycle of manager changes as so many other clubs do, it was what started the demise at Liverpool and us after Busby.

There was no doubting Moyes as a class act at Everton who had little money to spend, his teams were only two or three £30m signings from challenging for the league and he will get that at united. For me he did the right thing in allowing the players who won the league last year to show whether they are up for the new challenge, a fair few have shown they are not and the Summer is the right time to make those changes.

Personally I would accept us not reaching the champions league this season and winning no cups for 3 seasons before I felt a change was needed, all I want to see is progression in that time in terms off attractive football and desire from the players.

For those who want Moyes out I would ask who instead? As United fans we want to see progression from the youth ranks and that is less likely to happen with a manager who feels under pressure to deliver trophies from day one, this is why long term commitment to our manager is important. I am confident Moyes will be a great manager for us as long he gets the funds and support from us all.

 

[Fergie's Man]

It is all about belief. The players don't have it and clearly looking at this thread, the fans don't have it. It is like an infectious disease.

SAF made players and fans alike, believe they could beat anybody, but that belief took years to instil. I don't need to remind anybody about SAF's early days and we need to keep the belief that things will come good. The last thing the players need to read or hear, is the fans calling for Moyes' head, as they may well start believing that the problem is not theirs.

 

[Oldham]

I thought Moyes should at least get 3 years to prove himself before the season started, and that has not changed.

 

[nimic]

I thought Moyes should at least get 3 years to prove himself before the season started, and that has not changed.

At least 3 years? That's mental!

 

[nimic]

The worst thing we can do as a club is go through the 1 to 2 year cycle of manager changes as so many other clubs do, it was what started the demise at Liverpool and us after Busby.

Is it, though? After Paisley, Liverpool had Fagan who did fairly well before retiring after two years. They then had Dalglish, who won three league titles and two FA Cup titles in nearly six seasons, resigning when Liverpool were the league leaders.

After that they gave Souness nearly three seasons, Evans four, Houllier six and Benitez six. It's only after Benitez they've started changing managers quickly, and judging by their current season it even seems like it has worked. So if you think Liverpool's demise was because they didn't give their managers enough time, then you must be suggesting we give Moyes more than three seasons even if he continues to disappoint.

Actually, I'd argue that Liverpool's demise came from the opposite of changing managers too quickly; I'd say they persisted with failing managers for too long.

 

[MUFCgal]

I wasn't bowled over by Moyes' appointment last May but I've been behind him ever since he walked through the doors. Yes, we have played some terrible, terrible football but it's coincided with some outrageous situations, namely the lack of summer signings and our horrid injury list. Moyes is absolutely cursed; we've lost and drawn home games to teams that have been blessed to get the points through late goals, scored through smash'n'grab counter-attacks and through the profligacy of our own players.

The board have to make a decision now: either back him with the funds to sign the players required, or sack him. I don't think he should be sacked and I believe he'll turn it around.

Same for me.

 

[Getsme]

I thought Moyes should at least get 3 years to prove himself before the season started, and that has not changed.

Maybe if we were being competitive.

 

[JaffyJoe]

The Glazer's have to back him in the summer. The club isn't as profitable for them if we aren't winning and we need better players. I think Moyes is really starting to understand the difficulty of the task at hand if he didn't already. I was quite disappointed that he cut a frustrated figure yesterday, do the players respect him? I would love to be a fly on the wall for a day just to see how things are. We have lost the ability to grind out results. A few games were we should have picked up points and we are right behind Liverpool.

Add to all this the nagging feeling I have that Rooney will not sign a new contract with the club. It's tough times but for some reason i'm relishing it, I don't want to go over the top but this club is all about coming back from disaster we don't give up here. Moyes will come good simply because he has no choice.

 

[Varun]

My stance on it hasnt changed.

Never wanted him as I didnt believe he had done anything to deserve the job.

But once he was appointed, I was willing to trust SAFs judgement and hence support him.

I also firmly believed that a top 4 is a must, if he doesnt get that, he should be moved on. That hasnt changed either.

 

[Varun]

I thought Moyes should at least get 3 years to prove himself before the season started, and that has not changed.

atleast 3 years? That ridiculous. Its a crazily competitive world. We'd lose all our best players and get no one of even remotely similar quality if we struggle for 3 years.

 

[KanieKaned]

no matter what im on Uniteds side, whatever the club chooses to do. Thats all you can do really, unless you wanna become a proper plastic and follow city or chelsea.

 

[Wumminator]

I got behind Moyes for the long haul. Gonna continue supporting him. Looking forward to Tuesday when we demolish someone. (Please let us demolish someone)

 

[Mickeza]

I'm in the give him time camp with the adage that so far he hasn't been good enough and if he doesn't start showing he's good enough for this job soon then there will come a point where he needs to go. Sacking Moyes after a year doesn't make us like Chelsea, they sacked Mourinho after he'd won two league titles, they sacked Ancellotti for finishing second the season after winning the league, they sacked Di Matteo six months after they'd won the Champion League and when they were just 4 points off the leaders. Sacking Moyes for taking over the league champions and finishing seventh or whatever isn't remotely like that at all.

 

[Stretch]

I was not impressed when he was hired as manager but I decided to back him as he's our new manager. However, with the season we've had, I had to review my backing as it's not the results that's worst thing about this shambles, it's the way we're playing. We don't even look like a top half of the table side.

 

[jojojo]

I was and still am a firm advocate of David Moyes and am confident he will turn it round given time. The worst thing we can do as a club is go through the 1 to 2 year cycle of manager changes as so many other clubs do, it was what started the demise at Liverpool and us after Busby.

That's not how I remember it. Wilf McGuiness got 18 months and his players (including people like Charlton) basically ignored him. The mistake was appointing him, not sacking him.

O'Farrell was another 18 monther, again he lost his job because he lost control of his team. If they'd given him another couple of years would he have done better? Not with that squad and not with the atmosphere in the ground either. Decent manager, decent bloke, wrong club.

The great question of the era was why didn't we try to hire Brian Clough. A man big enough for the job and a man when partnered with Taylor good enough for the job. But we didn't. We went for a string of managers who hadn't won anything of note when they came and who couldn't get us back to the top when they were with us. As they say, what's hit is history, what's missed is mystery.

Actually I take that back, Sexton had won a Cup and a CWC with Chelsea, but got relegated a couple of years later.