Jadon Sancho | £72.9M fee agreed

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bosnian_red

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He clearly is. You're being very, very selective there, his time in the Championship isn't really relevant - it's what he's shown in the premier League. His calibre of play, passes, dribbles and goals scored, have been of a higher level to what Sancho has shown. He beats more men and draws more fouls, and his passing range in the league is second only to Pogba and De Bruyne.

You say Grealish has never reached 20 assists + goals in a season and note the being the main creator point, but ignore where I said their main strikers were injured. I watch pretty much all of their last 10 games that season, he created loads of chances they just didn't have the finish. He had 14 G+As that season, and 18 this season with an actual striker in Watkins, and that despite missing 10 games.

Anyway the comparison with the Dortmund team is stupid, you put Grealish in there he easily gets the same numbers Sancho does. The question is if you put Sancho into the Villa team does he have the same impact and the answer is no.

Again this isn't just based off stat padding from the Bundesliga but actually watching the two players. There's a reason why City are interested in signing him for £100m+ and not Sancho who is available at a lower price. It's likely both will be in the premier League before long and you'll see which is the better player. I mean I don't disagree that Sancho is a very good player, and can improve more as he is young, but at this stage one is very much the better player, and more proven in the premier League.
Sancho has shown very good form in the CL as well as being absolutely world class in the Bundesliga for 3 years. Is the premier league the be all and end all now? No other top league counts? I'm not sure how Grealish can be more proven. He's more proven in the premier league. Not in top leagues of European football or continental football. Not in terms of minutes played at the highest level. Not in terms of actual stats on paper with their goals and assists.

Grealish is brilliant of course, but Sancho is far more of a goalscorer which Grealish provides almost nothing with, while both are pretty similar in terms of creativity overall between their dribbling and passing. It's fine if you want to say that's purely because Sancho is in a top team in the Bundesliga compared to Grealish being in a mid table side in the prem, but Sancho's performances as an 18 and 19 year old in the Bundesliga destroyed what Jack Grealish did in the championship before they got promoted. And same with Grealish's first season in the prem. It wasn't until this season (where he was injured for a third of it) where Grealish put up elite creativity stats on par with what Sancho has done for 3 years.


Here's a comparison of them statistically (how they rank per 90 stats as a percentile with other attacking mids and wingers in the top 5 leagues in Europe). Sancho isn't a world class goalscorer, but he provides a solid amount and has averaged about 15 goals a year. Between their passing and dribbling creativity and the influence in the build up, they are right up there with each other as some of the most elite in Europe. Like I said, fine if you want to equate it to being Bundesliga buff vs Grealish in the prem, but that's just purely your opinion driving that rather than anything being "more proven", as with Grealish we are talking a much shorter amount of time displaying this form despite being 5 years older, and with Sancho we also see him excel in the Champions League.
 

marukomu

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None of these Twitter feckers know anything. They are just arseholes looking for attention.
 

mitchmouse

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You’d think after 2 years we’d have a bit more patience. What’s a few more weeks?
Possibly because of the club's track record... I'd say Woodward's track record but someone here keeps insisting that the chief exec has nothing to do with transfers :confused:
 

Zaphod2319

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This drawn out Hakimi transfer is about as much fun for Chelsea fans as this year two drama over Sancho is for you Man Utd fans.
 

rotherham_red

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I don't know why people are stressing. This will get done this summer, but it's not going to happen while the Euros are ongoing. A deal like this won't get over the line while he's on international duty. Firstly and most importantly because he needs to have all his focus on the tournament, and secondly, we aren't going to risk a deal worth hundreds of millions of pounds (with wages and agents fees factored in) while the player is on international duty and risks picking up a serious injury, even if it could happen in training rather than in-game (e.g. Dean Ashton).

Just enjoy the Euros and revisit this in a couple of weeks' time.
 

Irwin99

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I wonder if any club ever says 'if you submit bids with ad-ons you can feck right off? Pay the cash up front or just don't bid'. I'm sure they have their uses (as a form of paying in installments) but was this ever a thing 15-20 years ago?
 

bosnian_red

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Read that Sancho reached more goals and assists by his 21st birthday than Michael Owen or Wayne Rooney did (Sancho 74, Owen 73, Rooney 72). Nothing special though.
 

Traub

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I wonder if any club ever says 'if you submit bids with ad-ons you can feck right off? Pay the cash up front or just don't bid'. I'm sure they have their uses (as a form of paying in installments) but was this ever a thing 15-20 years ago?
I think so, didn't we want the Ronaldo fee all upfront?
 

bsCallout

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We seem to be doing 150 a year for the last few years. If we spend 75 on Sancho I think there will probably be another 75 for the other positions hopefully plus what we recoup from sales. Varane 50 and maybe 50 plus Jesse for Rice if we push the boat out to 175. I’d rather sell Lingard to the highest bidder and we should get 25 for him. Put it towards Camavinga with another 25 and you have your magic £150 million again. Either way we are definitely spending a lot building this team for Ole. I don’t think fans will have any legit complaints about investment in the team after this summer….

With another 2/3 new players Ole almost has a full new team bought. No excuses left. I feel like a long term striker and another world class potential midfielder next summer are the final pieces of this never ending jigsaw. If Ole gets Sancho and Varane I think we win the league or go very very close. We could also be the surprise package in the CL. I’ll be having a few quid on us in both anyway. I got a decent run for my money at 40-1 after Spurs in the league last year. I think anything over 5-1 will be value for the team who came second and added Sancho and Varane. Sancho and Varane lads :drool:
I don't get this if we buy X we win the league. That completepy ignores how strong the other teams are and the purchases they might be making themselves.
 

Van Piorsing

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We're finally doing something on the market. Should keep them busy till the end of tournament, hopefully they'll finally accept it at the beginning of July. Gives about two weeks for player to rest and then get some games on the tour.

£75m is a huge chunk of budget, someone needs to go and I'm not talking about Pereira & Lingz. With Sancho in, that's two more deals to go and it won't be cheap.
 

Rolaholic

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I wonder if any club ever says 'if you submit bids with ad-ons you can feck right off? Pay the cash up front or just don't bid'. I'm sure they have their uses (as a form of paying in installments) but was this ever a thing 15-20 years ago?
Think that was Dortmund's position last summer, they wanted 120m and not in installments and said feck off to any offer counter to that.
 

Offsideagain

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The finances of all the clubs in Europe are in dire straits. Clubs still owe other clubs millions from last seasons transfers and it may come down to one club coughing up the money so another can buy a player and start the ball rolling. Dortmund will need a replacement for Sancho should he ever leave and won’t want to leave it until Fergytime do the business. As usual, United seem to be trying to get a player on the cheap, which they are entitled to do, buy it seldom works. When I see Sancho in a United shirt, then I’ll believe it and not until then.
 

Ali Dia

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This drawn out Hakimi transfer is about as much fun for Chelsea fans as this year two drama over Sancho is for you Man Utd fans.
Its only been about 3 weeks :lol: and he’s probably the best right back in the world. Crazy money for a RWB but it’s essential to how you play so I get it. No doubt you’ll be going all out for haaland too. Hopefully he wants to follow his mates Ole and Sancho here next year though :)
 
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Ali Dia

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I don't get this if we buy X we win the league. That completepy ignores how strong the other teams are and the purchases they might be making themselves.
True but creatively and getting caught on the break were our two biggest problems last season. Sancho and Varane massively help with that. It’s a clear and world class upgrade with those two issues. I could obviously be way off but without looking at other clubs purchases, if we turned a few of those frustrating draws into ground out 1-0s we’d a lot closer.
 

sglowrider

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The finances of all the clubs in Europe are in dire straits. Clubs still owe other clubs millions from last seasons transfers and it may come down to one club coughing up the money so another can buy a player and start the ball rolling. Dortmund will need a replacement for Sancho should he ever leave and won’t want to leave it until Fergytime do the business. As usual, United seem to be trying to get a player on the cheap, which they are entitled to do, buy it seldom works. When I see Sancho in a United shirt, then I’ll believe it and not until then.
What we paid for Bruno was a lot cheaper than what was originally offeredthe previous summer. £75m versus £48m
 

Ali Dia

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The bundesliga fans are a lot less aggressive this year and our fans are a lot less cocky. Maybe it’s because we all know each other a year longer now or the fact we are actually going about this the right way this summer. Either way, you love to see it :lol:
 

stefan92

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The bundesliga fans are a lot less aggressive this year and our fans are a lot less cocky. Maybe it’s because we all know each other a year longer now or the fact we are actually going about this the right way this summer. Either way, you love to see it :lol:
The fact that this is the second summer of this sage surely is a big part of this more civilised behaviour. The most cocky United fans learned that such a transfer actually can fail, and therefore no one has to shove it down their throats the same way as last summer :lol:
 

Ali Dia

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The fact that this is the second summer of this sage surely is a big part of this more civilised behaviour. The most cocky United fans learned that such a transfer actually can fail, and therefore no one has to shove it down their throats the same way as last summer :lol:
:lol:

Very fair. I hope United treat Dortmund right and with all due respect because we will surely be back for Bellingham or Haaland or both and as far as I could see the Chelsea deal for Pulisic was relatively pain free. They’ve become a sort of middle man to the profile of player we all want to see in the PL but probably can’t give enough experience to. I have to say I have a soft spot for them and I think their scouting and recruitment and business model is world class. Leicester or the Tottenham of old were probably the closet thing we’ve had to them in the PL.
 

marktan

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Sancho has a history with City/Guardiola and apparently did not leave on the best terms. It is no wonder that City would prefer to sign someone who doesn't have this history Sancho has there.

And also it is obviously true that Sancho and Grealish have a bit different playing style and one might fit better for a certain wanted profile than the other.

But if you say that Grealish is more proven than Sancho I just have to agree with Hansi - while both have a similar amount of games in the top national leagues (Sancho with much better stats in a bit weaker league), only Sancho is proven at the highest stage of club football, while Grealish never appeared in the CL.

I did see very little of Grealish so far and therefore have to trust your observation regarding the quality of his scoring. But when he is so much better than Sancho, why does he score so rarely? Sounds to me a bit like he is massively lacking the consistency in his output that Sancho has proven now for years.
That's true on the point regarding Pep and City, you're right.

On Grealish, he is not "so much better than Sancho", but he is better currently. Not to say Sancho won't get better as he is still very young. I think really the best way to judge him is to watch him, or watch his highlights vs an individual team to see how he does in one game. His passing range, dribbling, and to a lesser extent his finishing are all top drawer.

I think the lack of numbers comes down to really the quality of the team, 19/20 was their first season back in the premier league and their main striker signing got a big injury, the 2 backups (Davies and Samatta) managed one league goal between them. Their other wide forward player was usually El Ghazi or Trezequet, and neither score or create many. 20/21 was better, they signed Watkins and Bertand Troare, and they were averaging about 5th spot before Grealish got injured. I think next season they'll do even better as they're trying to make good attacking signings (with Buendia signed currently who I rate very highly).

Sancho has shown very good form in the CL as well as being absolutely world class in the Bundesliga for 3 years. Is the premier league the be all and end all now? No other top league counts? I'm not sure how Grealish can be more proven. He's more proven in the premier league. Not in top leagues of European football or continental football. Not in terms of minutes played at the highest level. Not in terms of actual stats on paper with their goals and assists.

Grealish is brilliant of course, but Sancho is far more of a goalscorer which Grealish provides almost nothing with, while both are pretty similar in terms of creativity overall between their dribbling and passing. It's fine if you want to say that's purely because Sancho is in a top team in the Bundesliga compared to Grealish being in a mid table side in the prem, but Sancho's performances as an 18 and 19 year old in the Bundesliga destroyed what Jack Grealish did in the championship before they got promoted. And same with Grealish's first season in the prem. It wasn't until this season (where he was injured for a third of it) where Grealish put up elite creativity stats on par with what Sancho has done for 3 years.


Here's a comparison of them statistically (how they rank per 90 stats as a percentile with other attacking mids and wingers in the top 5 leagues in Europe). Sancho isn't a world class goalscorer, but he provides a solid amount and has averaged about 15 goals a year. Between their passing and dribbling creativity and the influence in the build up, they are right up there with each other as some of the most elite in Europe. Like I said, fine if you want to equate it to being Bundesliga buff vs Grealish in the prem, but that's just purely your opinion driving that rather than anything being "more proven", as with Grealish we are talking a much shorter amount of time displaying this form despite being 5 years older, and with Sancho we also see him excel in the Champions League.
There's a serious problem with focusing only on stats, you lose a lot of the background information. Mathew Benham, the owner of Brentford who recently got promoted and had a rep for being stats focused to sign players, talks about this well. He mentions how while they do use a lot of stats, to charecterise them as a stats only team is wrong, because stats inherently have a lot of noise and you need to watch players and teams a lot too to get the correct information. Stats leave out all the information regarding the shape of the team, the amount of chances they create, how many goal scorers they have, the quality of the goal the players score etc

For while the points of stats you've shown are true for Sancho, there's several things you don't take into account
- You say Grealish provides almost nothing in goal scoring and that Sancho is far more of a goal scorer, but he scored 8 goals for them in 19/20 in the premier league, out of a total of 41 goals the whole team scored in 38 matches. That's 19% of all the goals. Sancho scored 17 goals out of 84 goals total scored, and that's in 34 games vs 38 games. 20% of all the goals, a very similar total. In 20/21, Sancho scored 8/75 goals in the league, for a total of 10% of the team goals. Grealish scored 6 out of 55 league goals for Villa, coming to a very similar 10% total. So the point about one being the better goal scorer is not really true just because one has scored more goals, when you look at the team statistics and the type of goals scored.
- Using not being in the CL against Grealish is wrong, when he's never had a chance to play there. Also the point of Sancho 'excelling' as you say in the CL is clearly not true, just because he's played it in doesn't mean he's been good. In 18/19 they went out to Spurs in the Round of 16, on 4-0 on aggregate. I watched both matches specifically to watch Sancho, and he did nothing in either match. In 19/20, they went out to PSG again the round of 16, again I watched Sancho closely. He was a little better than in the Spurs match but it still wasn't a great two matches from him. He didn't play in the knockouts this year and if anything Dortmund were unlucky to go out to City in the QF's this year without him.
- You say Grealish stats in his first season were not great, but his assist numbers would be a lot higher if they had a fit striker. Their main striker, Wesley, got a serious injury early on in the campaign. Their two backups, Samatta and Davies, got 32 appearances between them in the league and managed one goal. The main change this season vs last was the signing of Watkins. Next season it'll likely go up even more as they've signed Buendia who is both a good goal scorer and an assist maker.

That said, I don't disagree with some of your points, Sancho has shown more at a younger age. What he does have over Grealish, is age and the time to develop. Just right now, for me, one is clearly the better and more polished player, and carries less risk as a signing (albeit a higher price tag). But I get what you and others will argue, especially considering age and stats, but it's just a personal opinion for me having watched both an extensive amount over the last 3 seasons.
 

bosnian_red

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That's true on the point regarding Pep and City, you're right.

On Grealish, he is not "so much better than Sancho", but he is better currently. Not to say Sancho won't get better as he is still very young. I think really the best way to judge him is to watch him, or watch his highlights vs an individual team to see how he does in one game. His passing range, dribbling, and to a lesser extent his finishing are all top drawer.

I think the lack of numbers comes down to really the quality of the team, 19/20 was their first season back in the premier league and their main striker signing got a big injury, the 2 backups (Davies and Samatta) managed one league goal between them. Their other wide forward player was usually El Ghazi or Trezequet, and neither score or create many. 20/21 was better, they signed Watkins and Bertand Troare, and they were averaging about 5th spot before Grealish got injured. I think next season they'll do even better as they're trying to make good attacking signings (with Buendia signed currently who I rate very highly).



There's a serious problem with focusing only on stats, you lose a lot of the background information. Mathew Benham, the owner of Brentford who recently got promoted and had a rep for being stats focused to sign players, talks about this well. He mentions how while they do use a lot of stats, to charecterise them as a stats only team is wrong, because stats inherently have a lot of noise and you need to watch players and teams a lot too to get the correct information. Stats leave out all the information regarding the shape of the team, the amount of chances they create, how many goal scorers they have, the quality of the goal the players score etc

For while the points of stats you've shown are true for Sancho, there's several things you don't take into account
- You say Grealish provides almost nothing in goal scoring and that Sancho is far more of a goal scorer, but he scored 8 goals for them in 19/20 in the premier league, out of a total of 41 goals the whole team scored in 38 matches. That's 19% of all the goals. Sancho scored 17 goals out of 84 goals total scored, and that's in 34 games vs 38 games. 20% of all the goals, a very similar total. In 20/21, Sancho scored 8/75 goals in the league, for a total of 10% of the team goals. Grealish scored 6 out of 55 league goals for Villa, coming to a very similar 10% total. So the point about one being the better goal scorer is not really true just because one has scored more goals, when you look at the team statistics and the type of goals scored.
- Using not being in the CL against Grealish is wrong, when he's never had a chance to play there. Also the point of Sancho 'excelling' as you say in the CL is clearly not true, just because he's played it in doesn't mean he's been good. In 18/19 they went out to Spurs in the Round of 16, on 4-0 on aggregate. I watched both matches specifically to watch Sancho, and he did nothing in either match. In 19/20, they went out to PSG again the round of 16, again I watched Sancho closely. He was a little better than in the Spurs match but it still wasn't a great two matches from him. He didn't play in the knockouts this year and if anything Dortmund were unlucky to go out to City in the QF's this year without him.
- You say Grealish stats in his first season were not great, but his assist numbers would be a lot higher if they had a fit striker. Their main striker, Wesley, got a serious injury early on in the campaign. Their two backups, Samatta and Davies, got 32 appearances between them in the league and managed one goal. The main change this season vs last was the signing of Watkins. Next season it'll likely go up even more as they've signed Buendia who is both a good goal scorer and an assist maker.

That said, I don't disagree with some of your points, Sancho has shown more at a younger age. What he does have over Grealish, is age and the time to develop. Just right now, for me, one is clearly the better and more polished player, and carries less risk as a signing (albeit a higher price tag). But I get what you and others will argue, especially considering age and stats, but it's just a personal opinion for me having watched both an extensive amount over the last 3 seasons.
That's fair I don't disagree really - just disagreed with the notion of Grealish being more proven because it's hard to say what exactly makes him more proven. I do think both are absolutely world class creators and generally that Sancho will provide more when it comes to goalscoring just out of style of play whereas Grealish will almost exclusively go for the pass. I get your point of the % of team goals but I'm not really sure it works quite the same, and generally the guy from Brentford was talking stats as goals and assists and how they looked at underlying stats - which is why I posted that graph! It's fair to expect a reduction from Bundesliga to the Premier league, think I read that some work into it has shown it to be around 12% or so? But you counter that with the age, natural development (and Sancho being incredibly elite in the Bundesliga anyway) that he'll still show his quality.

After last season Grealish its fair to say can have fewer doubts due to showing it for Villa in the prem and there will always be that hesitancy with Dortmund players, whether that's Haaland, Sancho, Reus, whoever. So its a question that will be asked but Sancho individually has done pretty much everything he possible could to show how good he is, and I have little doubt that he'll be a big success. Generally I think Sancho has the higher potential though, he's more explosive in style being 5 years younger and dominating from such a young age is so rare (has more goals and assists by his 21st birthday than England's 2 biggest "wonder kids" of the past 30 years, Rooney and Owen). More than anything, for United, Sancho has shown he is brilliant on both the right and the left, while Grealish has never played on the right and I don't think it'd get the best out of him, so it makes it a no brainer for me (along with being likely cheaper).
 

marktan

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That's fair I don't disagree really - just disagreed with the notion of Grealish being more proven because it's hard to say what exactly makes him more proven. I do think both are absolutely world class creators and generally that Sancho will provide more when it comes to goalscoring just out of style of play whereas Grealish will almost exclusively go for the pass. I get your point of the % of team goals but I'm not really sure it works quite the same, and generally the guy from Brentford was talking stats as goals and assists and how they looked at underlying stats - which is why I posted that graph! It's fair to expect a reduction from Bundesliga to the Premier league, think I read that some work into it has shown it to be around 12% or so? But you counter that with the age, natural development (and Sancho being incredibly elite in the Bundesliga anyway) that he'll still show his quality.

After last season Grealish its fair to say can have fewer doubts due to showing it for Villa in the prem and there will always be that hesitancy with Dortmund players, whether that's Haaland, Sancho, Reus, whoever. So its a question that will be asked but Sancho individually has done pretty much everything he possible could to show how good he is, and I have little doubt that he'll be a big success. Generally I think Sancho has the higher potential though, he's more explosive in style being 5 years younger and dominating from such a young age is so rare (has more goals and assists by his 21st birthday than England's 2 biggest "wonder kids" of the past 30 years, Rooney and Owen). More than anything, for United, Sancho has shown he is brilliant on both the right and the left, while Grealish has never played on the right and I don't think it'd get the best out of him, so it makes it a no brainer for me (along with being likely cheaper).
Fair points. I wouldn't be disappointed with Sancho signing, not at all. Just my priority vs the ones you've listed as yours, is really which has the less risk. Sancho for £90m, or Grealish for £120m? I think Grealish comes in and is instantly good for us, whereas with Sancho it's a bit more of a risk, because whilst I've seen him have great games against the likes of Bayern, I've also watched him be of little use in games in the CL and for England. So that's my main concern really, but as you say pros and cons to both so we'll see how it works out.
 

Hansi Fick

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He clearly is. You're being very, very selective there, his time in the Championship isn't really relevant - it's what he's shown in the premier League. His calibre of play, passes, dribbles and goals scored, have been of a higher level to what Sancho has shown. He beats more men and draws more fouls, and his passing range in the league is second only to Pogba and De Bruyne.

You say Grealish has never reached 20 assists + goals in a season and note the being the main creator point, but ignore where I said their main strikers were injured. I watch pretty much all of their last 10 games that season, he created loads of chances they just didn't have the finish. He had 14 G+As that season, and 18 this season with an actual striker in Watkins, and that despite missing 10 games.

Anyway the comparison with the Dortmund team is stupid, you put Grealish in there he easily gets the same numbers Sancho does. The question is if you put Sancho into the Villa team does he have the same impact and the answer is no.

Again this isn't just based off stat padding from the Bundesliga but actually watching the two players. There's a reason why City are interested in signing him for £100m+ and not Sancho who is available at a lower price. It's likely both will be in the premier League before long and you'll see which is the better player. I mean I don't disagree that Sancho is a very good player, and can improve more as he is young, but at this stage one is very much the better player, and more proven in the premier League.
Again, in no way do I want to suggest Grealish is not a great player, or a worse player than Sancho, or wouldn't be a great addition to any team. I don't mean to put him down in any way, to big up another player. Makes no sense. Wonderful player.

I just put forth arguments why I'm confused about how one can arrive at a certain valuation with him, pointing to his provenness, and then just ignore all that contributes to Sancho's valuation, when you look at certain facts.

But in the end it all boils down to how you judge the value of performing in Bundesliga as opposed to the Premier League. If you think stats and performances achieved in Bundesliga (well and CL but hey) are worth far less than from the PL, there's little Sancho can do to persuade you.
 

Rozay

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Can’t we just forget this and put the money towards Erling Brute Haaland.
 

Inigo Montoya

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Can’t we just forget this and put the money towards Erling Brute Haaland.
They aren’t going to sell him this season but we can chase him all the way to September just like we did Sancho only to be told he’s not for sale
 

Desert Eagle

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Well, Sancho is incoming. So you're tied with Bayern.
If you guys want to critisise someone for buying BVB players, it's certainly should not be Bayern, but the Premier League (and Manchester United specifically).
So certainly don't criticise Bayern and specifically criticise united even though if we buy Sancho we'll be tied with you(not even true). Makes sense
 

Rozay

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They aren’t going to sell him this season but we can chase him all the way to September just like we did Sancho only to be told he’s not for sale
They will sell him if they are offered an amount that will make them sell him. If Kanye goes to City that should take them out of the race there. Chelsea are a concern though. He’s the one we should be killing ourselves to sign though. If we don’t sign Sancho this season, I doubt anyone else will. Can’t see a queue around the corner to spend 80m on him.
 
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