James Garner

[MadDogg]

No. Its their forwards that press more than ours usually. Liverpool's midfield dont press as much, they are trying to fill spaces that are left by other players like the fullbacks. The opposite of pressing really instead of going towards the ball they are trying to fix gaps in their formation.

As you can see Fred 23 on average, Pogba and McTominay 14 on average

But Liverpool's midfielders?

Highest of those who regularly play is Thiago with 18, Jones 16, Wjalnaldum 12, Fabinho 10.5

Keita averages 24 slightly more than Fred but has only played 5.8 x 90 mins, which suggests that isnt important to Liverpool's midfield. Else he'd be starting a lot

We can also half include Bruno with his 20 per game as he's in the hole, half in midfield and half in attack. And Liverpool dont have that player between the 2.

Their main midfielders have spent a lot of games in central defence this season which obviously throws their stats out significantly.

When I did all the stats up about six weeks ago I used last seasons stats for Fabinho and Henderson, and while they weren't at Fred's level they were far ahead of the rest of our midfielders. Indeed Henderson was third out of all the notable midfielders I checked (behind only Allan and Fred). Between them Fabinho and Henderson pressed more than any combination of two of our midfielders.

Fred - 23.9
Henderson - 21.4 (last season)
Fabinho - 18.5 (last season)
Thiago - 18.4
McTominay - 14.6
Matic - 13.5
Pogba - 13.4 (not counting the games he played on the wing)

In total they press significantly more than us everywhere in the front six except for our two stand-outs of Fred and Bruno. It's not just their forwards, it's not just their midfielders - it's all of them. Our three midfielders of McTominay, Matic and Pogba are three of the worst pressing midfielders around, coming 19th, 24th and 25th of the 27 midfielders I checked (there's only 26 in the image but I later included Ndombele in my own records). Meanwhile if we look at Liverpool's three of Fabinho, Henderson and Thiago they have the highest average of all the midfields I checked (edit: I guess Everton would have a higher average with Allan and Doucoure, but if I do it again I'll have to include Gomes and see how he stacks up).

 

[Ekeke]

Last season when Liverpool were actually playing well

One of the differences with Liverpool this season is less pressing from their front players. Last season Firminho - their striker, pressed more than Bruno

Chamberlain plays multiple positions, but if we include his numbers as if hes just a CM then he's at 22.7 in his 16.5x 90 mins

Fred averaged 29.5 in his 24 x 90 mins

7 is quite a difference. And 8 with the more regularly starting Henderson as he had 21.4 in his 24.9x 90 mins

So there you go. Pressing is not a big job in the Liverpool midfield in their successful times, but their attackers pressed more than most with Firminho pressing more than Bruno and Salah not far behind.

And if they just wanted someone to press, they have Keita (most from midfield last season for them and this season, but doesnt play much) for that and hes on the bench like Fred would be.

 

[andersj]

Both Henderson, Milner and Fabinho pressed more than McTominay, Pogba and Matic. In reality, we had one midfielder that pressed significantly more than their midfielders, and that was Fred.

Very few teams have midfielders that press more than Liverpool. And that is without adjusting for the fact that Liverpools midfield dont have to press much due to Liverpool having the ball more and Liverpools attack doing much of the work for them.

 

[Ali Dia]

Do we need pressing- yes.
Are we any good at it? Fred and Bruno are. The rest not so much

 

[Ekeke]

Both Henderson, Milner and Fabinho pressed more than McTominay, Pogba and Matic. In reality, we had one midfielder that pressed significantly more than their midfielders, and that was Fred.

Very few teams have midfielders that press more than Liverpool. And that is without adjusting for the fact that Liverpools midfield dont have to press much due to Liverpool having the ball more and Liverpools attack doing much of the work for them.

Someone brought up that Fred would be playing for the top teams and I said give an example of someone like Fred playing in a top team. He said Liverpool.

Yes thats the point. Fred's main thing is pressing and running. The point is that Liverpool wouldnt play him like they dont play Keita who does the same. They dont want someone who's main thing is pressing in midfield, like the other top teams dont have that and so he wouldnt play for them.

A player who presses and wins the ball better than Fred was available in the summer. Everton bought Allan, not one of the top teams. And Napoli sold him.

 

[andersj]

The point is that Liverpool wouldnt play him like they dont play Keita who does the same. They dont want someone who's main thing is pressing in midfield, like the other top teams dont have that and so he wouldnt play for them.

But the reason Keita dont play is not that he is good at pressing.

If Fred was at Liverpool there is also a good chance his pressing numbers would be lower and more in line with for instance Henderson. We have a few individuals who are big outliers at Man Utd. That happens when you press less as a team and more as individuals.

 

[Ekeke]

But the reason Keita dont play is not that he is good at pressing.

If Fred was at Liverpool there is also a good chance his pressing numbers would be lower and more in line with for instance Henderson. We have a few individuals who are big outliers at Man Utd. That happens when you press less as a team and more as individuals.

They might be down but it would still be the best thing he does. It wouldnt suddenly improve all his other play

 

[MrBest]

Weren't Mount's 2 loans under Lampard at Derby? I am sure Lampard trusted him because he knew him from Derby.

One loan under Lampard, its fair to say that's why Lampard trusted him, but he is very talented too.

 

[JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo]

Hope we link up with Forrest more often. They are treating Garner very well. Hughton has him playing deeper than he was at Watford and its making the world of difference. Last couple of games hes been encouraged to get further forward and hes really benefitted from those late charges into the box.

I hope he goes out again next season to Forrest or a prem team who will start him. Has the potential to make it here.

 

[MadDogg]

One of the differences with Liverpool this season is less pressing from their front players. Last season Firminho - their striker, pressed more than Bruno

Chamberlain plays multiple positions, but if we include his numbers as if hes just a CM then he's at 22.7 in his 16.5x 90 mins

Fred averaged 29.5 in his 24 x 90 mins

7 is quite a difference. And 8 with the more regularly starting Henderson as he had 21.4 in his 24.9x 90 mins

So there you go. Pressing is not a big job in the Liverpool midfield in their successful times, but their attackers pressed more than most with Firminho pressing more than Bruno and Salah not far behind.

And if they just wanted someone to press, they have Keita (most from midfield last season for them and this season, but doesnt play much) for that and hes on the bench like Fred would be.

They don't press as much as Fred, but pressing absolutely is a big job for their midfield. Other than Fred and Allan there is basically nobody out there much ahead of them. Considering how much their opposition actually gets the ball, the fact that all their midfielders are so high is quite amazing.

I understand your overall point that pressing may not be the only (or most important) thing that these players bring, but it absolutely is one of their most important attributes. And while I'm not saying he'd get into the Liverpool midfield, it's not Fred's only attribute either.

 

[DevTheRed]

2 in 2 now for Jimmy

 

[Fanta Stick]

2 in 2 now for Jimmy

He meant that too and no one will convince me otherwise.

 

[londonredmaniac]

He's doing well the lad. Pleased for him.

Be interesting to see what his next step is if this progression continues. Hopefully pushes on well between now and end of season.

 

[FujiVice]

He might be a bit special, this lad, you know? Everytime I've watched him he looks so good. Think we could have a player on our hands.

 

[londonredmaniac]

He might be a bit special, this lad, you know? Everytime I've watched him he looks so good. Think we could have a player on our hands.

Just want to see him continue to improve in a first team environment.

Especially if his confidence is high...I'd like to see what another loan might do but a bad loan can put these lads back significantly.

It's an interesting dilemma.

 

[HJ12]

 

[lysglimt]

The comments from Forest-forums:

"I wish the supporters were there to let Garner know how much he is appreciated here "

"Really hope we can get Garner back for another season - what a player."

"Garner 9* - my man of the match by a country mile; the 2 free kicks were terrific deliveries, and his all-round vision and hard work were exemplary."

 

[charlenefan]

Weren't Watford raving about him early in that loan as well?

 

[Idxomer]

Weren't Watford raving about him early in that loan as well?

It's not early though, he already played 14 games for them.

 

[charlenefan]

It's not early though, he already played 14 games for them.

my point was that he was appreciated by them as well

 

[Alemar]

my point was that he was appreciated by them as well

But here he apparently became one of the key players of the team - it’s a different situation

 

[Idxomer]

my point was that he was appreciated by them as well

Ah ok. Maybe he was appreciated by the fans but not the manager which is why he was in and out of the team.

 

[Caritas]

Ah ok. Maybe he was appreciated by the fans but not the manager which is why he was in and out of the team.

They simply changed their manager, and he didnt need Garner, thats why that loan ended.

 

[crossy1686]

Mitten said that the plan is to loan Garner out again next season to a PL side to continue his development. He's apparently too 'frail' to run the midfield for a team like Manchester United according to the coaching staff. But they have high hopes for him.

 

[VP89]

Mitten said that the plan is to loan Garner out again next season to a PL side to continue his development. He's apparently too 'frail' to run the midfield for a team like Manchester United according to the coaching staff. But they have high hopes for him.

Makes sense, the talent obviously seems there. I'd like to see what he's capable of when loaned to a progressive playing PL side who would likely play him, like Brighton for example.

 

[vodrake]

Ah ok. Maybe he was appreciated by the fans but not the manager which is why he was in and out of the team.

From what I read, he was pretty consistently in the team at Watford until they sacked their manager in December and he didn't really fit in the new guys plans, leading to him being dropped and eventually the loan terminated

 

[AaronRedDevil]

Next team to loan him, needs to be premier league team. Hell I’d give him a chance now considering how bare bones out our squad is.

 

[marktan]

If the kid picks up his intensity and gets a bit faster he'll be some player. Right now I think the pace of the PL would make him stuggle a bit.

 

[Ali Dia]

Mitten said that the plan is to loan Garner out again next season to a PL side to continue his development. He's apparently too 'frail' to run the midfield for a team like Manchester United according to the coaching staff. But they have high hopes for him.

Sounds about right. This form is giving more choices and leverage when he goes out next season. Signs are good, there’s no huge rush

 

[Thiagoal]

If the kid picks up his intensity and gets a bit faster he'll be some player. Right now I think the pace of the PL would make him stuggle a bit.

Have you not watched a Championship game? Much faster and hectic than the Prem! The last Forest game I watched was like a 1980’s throwback. He’ll get much more time on the ball in the Prem which is why I’d like to see him play for a possession based side

 

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[marktan]

Have you not watched a Championship game? Much faster and hectic than the Prem

I have. More hectic and physical yes but the ball moves quicker in the PL and you need to be quick if you're a DM. Look at Bissouma, Rice, Ndidi etc - all good on the ball but physically they're strong and fast. Garner is physically strong but he's bit bit slow - if you watch his highlights against Norwich a month or so ago, the Norwich attackers passed him by a fair few times. They're probably the closest comparison to PL quality he'd face.

Not a big issue though, just needs to go the gym a bit and work on his sprints and intensity.

 

[charlenefan]

I actually didn't realise he's only just turned 20, he's been around for years assumed he was closer to 22/23

 

[BlahRules]

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McFred will be replaced by him with ease just looking at clips. The thing that impress me is ability not to be phased when being pressed.

 

[Adamsk7]

He’ll be the reason we’ll sell McTominay in a few seasons. He’s just a much better footballer. Whether he becomes a regular or not is still up in the air of course as he’s got a bit to work on physically.

 

[JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo]

I have. More hectic and physical yes but the ball moves quicker in the PL and you need to be quick if you're a DM. Look at Bissouma, Rice, Ndidi etc - all good on the ball but physically they're strong and fast. Garner is physically strong but he's bit bit slow - if you watch his highlights against Norwich a month or so ago, the Norwich attackers passed him by a fair few times. They're probably the closest comparison to PL quality he'd face.

Not a big issue though, just needs to go the gym a bit and work on his sprints and intensity.

You have it wrong. Hes actually pretty fast. He has a really good acceleration. He needs to improve on his strength, which he naturally will as he ages. Against Norwich he was pressing recklessly and left himself out of position. He started sitting further back since and has been improving massively

 

[andersj]

You have it wrong. Hes actually pretty fast.

I think his frame could be a bit deceptive.

 

[AjaxCunian]

I have watched some academy, but not a great deal. Garner, Greenwood, Laird seemed to be the standouts of their age group / generation in the academy. But how does Garner compare to Rothwell/Pearson, they are both respected midfielders in the Championship now but I can remember that they were destined for big things as well.

 

[andersj]

But how does Garner compare to Rothwell/Pearson, they are both respected midfielders in the Championship now but I can remember that they were destined for big things as well.

I’m not sure there is a big difference in how they were perceived in here. The big difference, I think, is how they appear to be perceived by the people inside the club. Garner was very early part of the first team for long periods of time. Probably as early as during Mourinhos time here.

 

[TheReligion]

He’ll be the reason we’ll sell McTominay in a few seasons. He’s just a much better footballer. Whether he becomes a regular or not is still up in the air of course as he’s got a bit to work on physically.

I find that a strange comment. I don't see them as similar players so no idea why one would have any impact on the other. Garner is more likely to come into our team by taking the minutes of Matic. Mctominay has developed into a more driving, box to box style player.