That is also true. What isn't true that Scholes was played mainly as 'CM' (however you classify that; I would classify it it as somebody who stays near the centre circle or sits back in front of the central defenders as Scholes does nowadays) in 1998. It wasn't till later when he really started playing that role.
Javier Hernandez | 2012/13 Performances
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Well sounds like you're defining it wrong then. That would rule out players like Lampard, when they were blatantly CM's.
Kagawa could play deeper, will he offer as much there, not in my opinion and unless we're going to get Rooney to play in the hole this season then I think we're gonna see similar problems to the ones we've seen in the past, where we struggle to get in to some games and that's because we'll let ourselves get outnumbered in the middle. Kagawa in his normal position would counter that and allow the likes of clev, ando and even Carrick a way to get more involved in the attack. If he's not doing that role then I hope Rooney is.
Specifically on Kagawa deeper, I think it's a bit more complex then saying scholes did it. Scholes as a striker/number 10 wasn't the same as kagawa, in the same way Gerrard as a number ten doesn't play it in the same way Silva/Iniesta/Ozil etc would. Same position, different execution. Personally I think Scholes's style lent itself more to being a box to box player when he went into midfield and then to the deeper player he is now. He didn't drift in and around games in the way the likes of kagawa, silva etc do.
Also as I've said before it was different when Scholes played. Teams played 442 which meant his lack of defensive talents weren't really exposed as he just had to pick up his man and we didn't get so overrun in the middle and he could get forward much easier as he really had only one man to beat. These days the majority of teams play 451/433, we're usually outnumbered 2 to 3 in the middle and with most teams playing so narrow in reality it's more then that. I don't think you can really have a midfielder who played like scholes did, in a two man midfield at the moment. Not as successfully and particularly without someone dropping in to that deeper role, between the midfield and attack to facilitate someone pushing ahead. If they try it without someone dropping to cover then imo we're very open to the counter.
If we do put someone there then Kagawa could be effective there, if not at his best. I guess in the end sometimes you have to sacrifice one player playing at their best for the good of the team. However I think that if we play rooney and rvp quite high and neither is told to actually stay in the hole that whilst in some games we will be amazing, in others, the likes we've struggled in before we'll see the same problems. The midfielders won't be able to have a large attacking influence because they'll be isolated and we'll still suffer from defensive frailties from his lack off training there.
We'll have to see I guess. Fergie has been talking about Kagawa as one of the striking options which has given me some hope, but I can't see the logistics of how he'll play there regularly. Like I said I'm sure he can play a deeper role, however I think we may well be missing out on a great way to make the team more dynamic by doing so. On the other hand if Rooney goes back to his original role and can add more consistency to his performance in deep areas then it could well make us an even better team, though if kagawa is there on a regular basis then it'll be a shame for the likes of clev and ando.
To keep my post on topic somewhat, regarding Hernandez, well I'm not sure what will happen with him. Said before that I don't think he has the versatility that Welbeck has which will cost him games, could be a great impact sub, but then would he really make the bench much? Suppose it depends on what happens with the wingers but I'd expect the normal bench to include the likes of welbeck, young, ando, with giggs, scholes, hernandez, fighting for the other attacking spot. Be interesting to see.
Specifically on Kagawa deeper, I think it's a bit more complex then saying scholes did it. Scholes as a striker/number 10 wasn't the same as kagawa, in the same way Gerrard as a number ten doesn't play it in the same way Silva/Iniesta/Ozil etc would. Same position, different execution. Personally I think Scholes's style lent itself more to being a box to box player when he went into midfield and then to the deeper player he is now. He didn't drift in and around games in the way the likes of kagawa, silva etc do.
Also as I've said before it was different when Scholes played. Teams played 442 which meant his lack of defensive talents weren't really exposed as he just had to pick up his man and we didn't get so overrun in the middle and he could get forward much easier as he really had only one man to beat. These days the majority of teams play 451/433, we're usually outnumbered 2 to 3 in the middle and with most teams playing so narrow in reality it's more then that. I don't think you can really have a midfielder who played like scholes did, in a two man midfield at the moment. Not as successfully and particularly without someone dropping in to that deeper role, between the midfield and attack to facilitate someone pushing ahead. If they try it without someone dropping to cover then imo we're very open to the counter.
If we do put someone there then Kagawa could be effective there, if not at his best. I guess in the end sometimes you have to sacrifice one player playing at their best for the good of the team. However I think that if we play rooney and rvp quite high and neither is told to actually stay in the hole that whilst in some games we will be amazing, in others, the likes we've struggled in before we'll see the same problems. The midfielders won't be able to have a large attacking influence because they'll be isolated and we'll still suffer from defensive frailties from his lack off training there.
We'll have to see I guess. Fergie has been talking about Kagawa as one of the striking options which has given me some hope, but I can't see the logistics of how he'll play there regularly. Like I said I'm sure he can play a deeper role, however I think we may well be missing out on a great way to make the team more dynamic by doing so. On the other hand if Rooney goes back to his original role and can add more consistency to his performance in deep areas then it could well make us an even better team, though if kagawa is there on a regular basis then it'll be a shame for the likes of clev and ando.
To keep my post on topic somewhat, regarding Hernandez, well I'm not sure what will happen with him. Said before that I don't think he has the versatility that Welbeck has which will cost him games, could be a great impact sub, but then would he really make the bench much? Suppose it depends on what happens with the wingers but I'd expect the normal bench to include the likes of welbeck, young, ando, with giggs, scholes, hernandez, fighting for the other attacking spot. Be interesting to see.
If you'd played a 433 system with the triangle midfield with the point towards the defence & 2 attacking midfielders I think you could play Kagawa as attacking midfielder. That's where he often played at Dortmund.
Not sure if this was posted above, I didn't bother to look, but apparently Chelsea approached United for Hernandez that was rejected. Not sure why all the talk about Hernandez leaving. Why would United get rid of him? He will get plenty of playing time.
Hard to see where. Don't think we'll make the mistake we did in the CL group stage last year where we alternated too much. Can see Hernandez getting some starts there but reckon we'll see Welbeck there a fair bit too. He doesn't have the versatility of welbeck to play a deeper or wide role, so aside from the cup games he'll be limited to some rotation and sub appearances you'd think. That's fine for an 18year old but at 23/24 you want to be a regular. Not saying we should sell him, just that I think it will be tough to give him plenty of games.
So, little pea.....does he stay/go or is the media just stirring crap up?
All good points. I think what you said about rotation makes the most sense. Surely he won't get many starts barring any injuries.
Going by Fergie's comments today he stays, and will play a fair bit as well. Berba was left out of the comments about our forwards which shows a lot.
Chicharito will definately stay. We always go with four strikers and Chicharito is the type of striker that can make an impact coming off the bench. I really do believe he is as close to OGS as we will get going into the future.
United will hope to play nearly 60 games this season. Hernandez could still pop up with 10-20 starts and 20+ sub appearances.
According to ESPN, Chelsea are interested. Love the lad, but if 20 million quid came through the door, considering our options, it may be worth it. Unlikely he's going to get the time he needs to become a regular starter for us this season, or the next.
Having RvP for 4 years is also very good. Hope we keep him though; if he can replicate his old form, well, then he'll be scoring 1st minute goals for Chelsea for a long time for us.
Keeps being called offside ;/
Having RvP for 4 years is also very good. Hope we keep him though; if he can replicate his old form, well, then he'll be scoring 1st minute goals for Chelsea for a long time for us.
Keeps being called offside ;/
when he talks about his striking option during rvp's press presentation, hernandez was the first name mentioned by fergei when he named his strikers. berba, of course was not mentioned. hernandez is very much in fergei's plan.
i hope he stays, having five great strikers is a nice problem to have
Don't sell our best players, especially to rivals. He's got so much more to give.
I'd only sell him if Chelsea came in with silly money like £40m 
He's a great asset to have, and no doubt there'll be times this season when he'll have to save our asses again. That Chelsea game
He's a great asset to have, and no doubt there'll be times this season when he'll have to save our asses again. That Chelsea game
Remember when the press was linking him with madrid for a swap deal with benzema and higuain
Some Real fans were willing to give Benzema or Higuain, plus some cash for him.Remember when the press was linking him with madrid for a swap deal with benzema and higuain
Too bad he's "The Only One" and didn't listen to anyone else; they're far far away in terms of development compared to Chicharito now.
If they offered 10-15 million it would be a good deal for a player as limited as javier. He would only go from our benchwarmer to their's.
Really???
I'd reluctantly admit that Utd should probably accept an offer of over £20m, but not for anything less than that, and only to a club who aren't a rival - certainly not to Chelsea. Hernandez is still young, a good goal scorer - and I really like the lad.
Sadly I think every players has their price. But I'd definitely hate to see him go, I really like him as a player, and think he offers something none of our other strikers do.
Wouldn't like to see him go, but realistically he's too good to be a fourth choice striker, so I wouldn't begrudge him leaving if that's what he decided. Would have to be to a foreign team though, I'd hate to see him play for any of our domestic rivals.
He's had 2 seasons, the first he was majestic and we were all banging on about him, the second one he was average, lost his place in the team, got played alone up front at times without really being suited to it...he's still very young and has much development ahead but he's got the potential to really add to his game - plus when playing in a formation that suits him he can find space like no other. To sell him now, when his value is low would be stupid. To sell him to Chelsea would border on sacrilege.
Only way I'd see him leave is if a club offered a top drawer player in exchange for him in a position we're more light in...which ain't likely.
Hope he stays. Convinced he'll stay.
He ll still get a lot of games. He s the kind of player you would want to come on as a sub when you desperately need a goal with 15 minutes left to play.
I hope it's all rubbish. He's an excellent striker, and an important part of the squad. Not to mention RvP is only a strong wind away from doing his knee.
10-15m?
Ease off the drugs.
SAF is delighted with him and his new strike-force, he will stay have a big part to play, I'm sure of that.
Yeah, I agree with that, not sure it'll be enough to keep him happy though. The obvious parallel is with Ole, but I think Ole was a bit of a one-off in terms of being happy with that kind of role. Hopefully I'm wrong, though.
He's not worth more than £20m. A year ago people were telling me we couldn't replace him if we sold him for £30m - bollocks, he's a solid striker but nothing special and when you see the likes of Jelavic, Mandzukic and Cisse go for less than £10m then you can't really say Hernandez is worth much more than that. He's a £10m player. We can't measure everyone by Andy Carroll scale, we just paid £12m for a top player from Bundesliga.
I still wouldn't sell him, I'd trust him more than Welbeck to come on from the bench and score a goal against the run of play with one touch when we need it.
Chicha will benefit the most with RVP.
Robin will find him when he makes his jinksy moves.
Robin will find him when he makes his jinksy moves.
Big difference in those valuations, although the first one is your 'cap' there's a massive difference between a 10m and 20m player.
He's young, played for a top club and provides something that few strikers do; stretches the defence and gets you goals. I'm sure clubs would be lining up @ 10 million quid to get him. He's also very committed and humble; no issues no baggage. I reckon 20 million would be a pretty good deal for us, but someone taking him for a 10 m cheque is rather low; he's got a long time on his contract and isn't pushing for a move, like Kagawa.
I can see why you'd put a 10 million valuation on him; but surely he's earned a bit more love than that, esp. after keeping the golden boot winner on the bench, in the season he won it; loads of potential and improvements possible with the lad!
Don't get me wrong, I like him as a player and by no means do I treat £10m as a fixed valuation - I used it because all the players I mentioned have recently gone for that or less and I'd rate him around the same level as them, perhaps slightly lower in case of Cisse cause I think Cisse is pure class.
As I said I wouldn't sell him at all but if we were to sell him, we wouldn't get much more than £10m, I think £15m would be the absolute maximum and whoever would pay that wouldn't be getting that great a deal.
Kagawa and Hernandez can form a deadly partnership. I reckon Hernandez will get a decent amount of games this season -particularly as a sub.
Yes, but in a world where Steven Fletcher is apparently valued at £14m, Chicharito is not a £10m player
We could go on with this forever. In a world where Mandzukic goes for €13m, Hernandez isn't worth any more than that etc. Besides, Fletcher might not be a £14m player but he's a consistent PL goalscorer - much like Hernandez, although a completely different sort of player - and could actually be worth the same kind of money as Chicharito in this market. It also depend on who's buying, no one except for O'Neill would pay £14m for Fletcher - if you found a manager who'd have a thing for Mexicans as much as O'Neill has for British players then we'd probably receive a £95m bid for Hernandez.
I think it's cause of the fact that Steven Fletcher can play up front by himself means that he's rather more desirable for the mid and lower table teams; they can't afford to go 442 against teams that are superior to them; even we sometimes get dominated 2v3 in midfield; for a team closer to the foot of the league, it can be suicidal playing with 2 strikers often enough to justify the purchase of Javier for a high fee.
Hernandez wouldn't be all that great without a striker in behind him; he's not going to win the aerial duels etc. he's going to be a player whose in the box scoring goals, or running onto through balls; for that, he needs another player playing quite close to him, otherwise the balls not going to end up anywhere near the opposition goalkeeper.
If you play with a 1 striker formation, Javier isn't your man; whereas Fletcher is far more suited towards this; he can play up front, isolated, and can score from this position too. Far inferior to Drogba obviously, but he can play a similar role to him; and that's what lower teams in the PL need; someone who can provide a threat even when everyone else is back close to the halfway line, hold up the ball and do something with little support.
If you can only commit 3 players forwards in a lot of your attacks (As you are vary of the Valencia counter attack etc) as a weaker team, then you can't have Javier as one of those options, because you won't be able to pass to him most of the time; and you'll end up A) dribbling yourself into a tackle B) Doing 1-2's with the same player; as soon as they're marked you are on your own and having to commit more forward; if javier does make himself available, then he's not exactly playing to many of his strengths.
Mandzukic? wtf. Shite comparison. One has played 56 games for Wolfsburg scoring 20 goals, the other for MANCHESTER UNITED scoring 23 goals in 55 games and I'm betting a lot less game time.
Hernanez has 25 international goals in 39 international games, Mandzukic just 8 in 32.
Kagawa went for the money he did because of his contract, nothing more.
The idea that Hernandez is worth just 10m now is fecking retarded, the idea that Mandzukic is on a similar level to him at this moment goes beyond retardation.
I've not even seen Mandzukic that many times, he had a great Euro though and on that basis his value was going to be higher than normally.
Then fair enough, Papiss Cisse went for £8m - do you reckon Hernandez is a better forward?
It would only be 'worth it' if Fergie could replace him with the same type of striker of superior quality before the window closes.
You can't play 20 million quid up front after all.
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