Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

In the past I have made my views on Jeremy Corbyn pretty clear.
Nevertheless, he is many orders of magnitude a better politician and person than the chancer Farage. He is a divisive individual who is just taking the piss out of those gullible enough to even contemplate voting for him.
 
Buster15 said:
In the past I have made my views on Jeremy Corbyn pretty clear.
Nevertheless, he is many orders of magnitude a better politician and person than the chancer Farage. He is a divisive individual who is just taking the piss out of those gullible enough to even contemplate voting for him.
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:lol: :lol:

That's very fecking obvious, to the point where it doesn't need saying really.
 
Raven said:
:lol: :lol:

That's very fecking obvious, to the point where it doesn't need saying really.
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I felt the need to post it mate because both were on the TV last night and to be honest I actually felt a bit sorry for Jeremy because he looked pretty frail.
Anyway, I have said it now.
 
Buster15 said:
I felt the need to post it mate because both were on the TV last night and to be honest I actually felt a bit sorry for Jeremy because he looked pretty frail.
Anyway, I have said it now.
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It does need to be said because while it seems self-evident a large proportion of the public probably feel the same about him as others feel about Farage.
 
11 executive committee members - including the chair. 61 further delegates, ward organisers and the like.
 
711 said:
That makes more sense, but not a good start by 'Red Collective', with his tagline 'Ste, Politically left, Consistently right'. He might benefit from a mate proof-reading for him.
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:lol:

Decent set of signatures though - looks to be quite a lot of the local hierarchy.
 


Glad he kept his seat. It's nice to see people with moral values in the UK parliament.
 
Giggsyking said:


Glad he kept his seat. It's nice to see people with moral values in the UK parliament.
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H's been their MP for over 40 years, a good one at that too. Some out of town millionaire who's pro health privatisation that Labour parachuted in was never going to beat Jeremy.
 
Does it not worry you that a former leader of the opposition holds Karl Marx in high esteem?

It's not Marx's political ideology that is concerning, more the overtures that he believed that the only way to achieve them was through violence and physical uprisings.

Not to say that Corbyn believed any of those things, but I certainly wouldn't visit someone's grave who did believe those things, no matter how much I agree with their political leanings.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Does it not worry you that a former leader of the opposition holds Karl Marx in high esteem?

It's not Marx's political ideology that is concerning, more the overtures that he believed that the only way to achieve them was through violence and physical uprisings.

Not to say that Corbyn believed any of those things, but I certainly wouldn't visit someone's grave who did believe those things, no matter how much I agree with their political leanings.
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Not really, does it bother you Kamala Harris's father is a Marxist? Or Trump is morally corrupt, lying, cheating, narcissistic, self obsessed compulsive liar who has been accused of selling state secrets and making deals with foreign leaders? That his son in law got paid 2.1 billion after leaving a position he had no experience or right to be in and did nothing while there? Or his daughter securing $600 million in trademark deals from the Chinese government?


Corbyn is a socialist, and a pacifist, he's made that clear numerous times with his speeches and approach towards conflicts and policy ideas. He is a scholar of history and politics and has also said many times he thought Marx was a great economist. He was for unilateral nuclear disarmament and has often said he's an idealist. Some of his policies were considered Conservative by many, especially his views on austerity with regards to stabilising the economy. He has also said on numerous occasions he does not support violent protests and thinks they don't work towards achieving political change, only causing more divisions with those who don't share the views of the protesters.

So no, it doesn't worry me. What worries me more is the hate campaign against him and the lies and false accusations made against him in order to force him out.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Does it not worry you that a former leader of the opposition holds Karl Marx in high esteem?

It's not Marx's political ideology that is concerning, more the overtures that he believed that the only way to achieve them was through violence and physical uprisings.

Not to say that Corbyn believed any of those things, but I certainly wouldn't visit someone's grave who did believe those things, no matter how much I agree with their political leanings.
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I think these would have bothered me more than a person trying to get elected, but who knows what's worse!

British Army 'could stage mutiny under Corbyn', says senior serving general​

Generals would not 'allow a prime minister to jeopardise the security of the UK'

Video shows British troops firing at Jeremy Corbyn poster

​

 
langster said:
Not really, does it bother you Kamala Harris's father is a Marxist? Or Trump is morally corrupt, lying, cheating, narcissistic, self obsessed compulsive liar who has been accused of selling state secrets and making deals with foreign leaders? That his son in law got paid 2.1 billion after leaving a position he had no experience or right to be in and did nothing while there? Or his daughter securing $600 million in trademark deals from the Chinese government?


Corbyn is a socialist, and a pacifist, he's made that clear numerous times with his speeches and approach towards conflicts and policy ideas. He is a scholar of history and politics and has also said many times he thought Marx was a great economist. He was for unilateral nuclear disarmament and has often said he's an idealist. Some of his policies were considered Conservative by many, especially his views on austerity with regards to stabilising the economy. He has also said on numerous occasions he does not support violent protests and thinks they don't work towards achieving political change, only causing more divisions with those who don't share the views of the protesters.

So no, it doesn't worry me. What worries me more is the hate campaign against him and the lies and false accusations made against him in order to force him out.
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Sorry but I fail to see what Trump has to do with this? And having a father who believes one thing is very different than visiting the grave of the same said person. And the answer to the last two is clearly Yes, and yes? Trump and Kushner are two of the slimiest cnuts in the history of modern politics but like, what does Trump have anything to do with this? I'm very confused.

Well, what I bolded in what you said regarding nuclear policy is enough of a deal breaker for me and plenty of other people. No lies or smears and understanding that there were hit campaigns against him will change the fact that based on the bolded alone, many people won't vote for him.

Even if most of the allegations wasn't true, his optics and lack of understanding of perception is awful. The fact remains, even if he didn't actually hold the stances he viewed, the callous way he said certain things and the circle he kept close showed a severe degree of incompetency that rendered him unfit for the highest position, in my opinion.

Surrounding himself with figures like Seamus Milne, Andrew Murray, Len Mcluskey and McDonnell. McDonnell serious confounds me, he was heading into a G.E and decided to do a speech at an event next to a flag praising Stalin and a portrait of Chairman Mao. That's just such bad optics, even if he didn't intend to. And he chose a Director of Communications who wrote a book defending the Stasi in Seamus Milne.

He did indeed get attacked by right wing media, but he also didn't help himself in any way shape or form by surrounding himself with absolute cranks that indeed had a very checkered past.
 
berbatrick said:
I think these would have bothered me more than a person trying to get elected, but who knows what's worse!

British Army 'could stage mutiny under Corbyn', says senior serving general​

Generals would not 'allow a prime minister to jeopardise the security of the UK'​

​

Video shows British troops firing at Jeremy Corbyn poster​

​

​

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Why are we resorting to whataboutism?

The above is also an absolute shit-show, yes and the people involved should have been court-martialled and jailed.

EDIT - Take back the sentence above, having actually read beyond the headline.

The general actually said, "If Corbyn tries to dismantle and shrink the armed forces, scrap trident or pull out of NATO, we'd all mass resign which is in essence a mutiny"

Way different from what the title implied. Nice try though.

Stand by what I said though, Troops firing at a Corbyn poster should be court martialled.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Does it not worry you that a former leader of the opposition holds Karl Marx in high esteem?

It's not Marx's political ideology that is concerning, more the overtures that he believed that the only way to achieve them was through violence and physical uprisings.

Not to say that Corbyn believed any of those things, but I certainly wouldn't visit someone's grave who did believe those things, no matter how much I agree with their political leanings.
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You can't be a socialist without admiring Karl Marx. You can be one without admiring specific communist leaders, but Marx was an economist and a historian, he didn't design any systems or commit any atrocities. And before you damn him for his beliefs about methods, remember what the world and the state of worker rights looked like when he was thinking about these things.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Sorry but I fail to see what Trump has to do with this? And having a father who believes one thing is very different than visiting the grave of the same said person. And the answer to the last two is clearly Yes, and yes? Trump and Kushner are two of the slimiest cnuts in the history of modern politics but like, what does Trump have anything to do with this? I'm very confused.

Well, what I bolded in what you said regarding nuclear policy is enough of a deal breaker for me and plenty of other people. No lies or smears and understanding that there were hit campaigns against him will change the fact that based on the bolded alone, many people won't vote for him.

Even if most of the allegations wasn't true, his optics and lack of understanding of perception is awful. The fact remains, even if he didn't actually hold the stances he viewed, the callous way he said certain things and the circle he kept close showed a severe degree of incompetency that rendered him unfit for the highest position, in my opinion.

Surrounding himself with figures like Seamus Milne, Andrew Murray, Len Mcluskey and McDonnell. McDonnell serious confounds me, he was heading into a G.E and decided to do a speech at an event next to a flag praising Stalin and a portrait of Chairman Mao. That's just such bad optics, even if he didn't intend to. And he chose a Director of Communications who wrote a book defending the Stasi in Seamus Milne.

He did indeed get attacked by right wing media, but he also didn't help himself in any way shape or form by surrounding himself with absolute cranks that indeed had a very checkered past.
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A lot of fair criticism was aimed against him no doubt, and unilateral disarmament is his idealism shining through yet clearly not practical or achievable.

I didn't say he was perfect, but the way he was treated wasn't fair and the fact is the current Labour Party is more aligned with Blair's centrist party and has moved, even tried to distance itself from it's true left core values. That was a tactic to get elected by Blair and is the same again now. Jeremy for all of his faults at least held many core values more aligned with traditional Labour voters but sadly was often too radical and inconsistent.


Ultimately he became a liability who couldn't be trusted with many voters just sick and tired with the constant negative accusations and stories surrounding him. Sadly it seems Kier is facing the same problem after just over 2 months as Prime minister. As far as the UK goes, I've never seen as much hate and venom directed at someone so early after their election win as Kier has and is facing. Even Liz Truss didn't get this much.

I apologise, I started the whataboutism.
 
nimic said:
You can't be a socialist without admiring Karl Marx. You can be one without admiring specific communist leaders, but Marx was an economist and a historian, he didn't design any systems or commit any atrocities. And before you damn him for his beliefs about methods, remember what the world and the state of worker rights looked like when he was thinking about these things.
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I'd actually argue Engels did more to actually bring the theoretical side of things to life, but I understand why Marx is more respected; Engel's work is very unaccessible, much more behind the scenes are his writing style is quite possibly one of the worst I have ever tried to comprehend.
 
langster said:
A lot of fair criticism was aimed against him no doubt, and unilateral disarmament is his idealism shining through yet clearly not practical or achievable.

I didn't say he was perfect, but the way he was treated wasn't fair and the fact is the current Labour Party is more aligned with Blair's centrist party and has moved, even tried to distance itself from it's true left core values. That was a tactic to get elected by Blair and is the same again now. Jeremy for all of his faults at least held many core values more aligned with traditional Labour voters but sadly was often too radical and inconsistent.


Ultimately he became a liability who couldn't be trusted with many voters just sick and tired with the constant negative accusations and stories surrounding him. Sadly it seems Kier is facing the same problem after just over 2 months as Prime minister. As far as the UK goes, I've never seen as much hate and venom directed at someone so early after their election win as Kier has and is facing. Even Liz Truss didn't get this much.

I apologise, I started the whataboutism.
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A lot of Keir Starmers criticism comes from both sides, which is the problem. Corbyn was truly terrifying towards center-right and right wingers, but Starmer is getting attacked by both sides.

You even saw on the caf, traditional left wing labour voters in the UK election thread attacking Starmer and not even addressing the absolute shit-show that was the Tories.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
I'd actually argue Engels did more to actually bring the theoretical side of things to life, but I understand why Marx is more respected; Engel's work is very unaccessible, much more behind the scenes are his writing style is quite possibly one of the worst I have ever tried to comprehend.
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Maybe, but I don't think he'd be able to perform in a rap battle like Marx would:

 
AfonsoAlves said:
Does it not worry you that a former leader of the opposition holds Karl Marx in high esteem?

It's not Marx's political ideology that is concerning, more the overtures that he believed that the only way to achieve them was through violence and physical uprisings.

Not to say that Corbyn believed any of those things, but I certainly wouldn't visit someone's grave who did believe those things, no matter how much I agree with their political leanings.
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Not really. It isn't like he was Prime Minister. Nigel Farage was an NF sympathiser and remains influential. That bothers me much more.
 
Frosty said:
Not really. It isn't like he was Prime Minister. Nigel Farage was an NF sympathiser and remains influential. That bothers me much more.
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Precisely this. I don't ever envisage a hypothetical PM Corbyn sending us to gulags and starving millions of us to death, despite him sharing an admiration for a pivotal historical figure alongside some of the 20th century despots. A bit like how I'm not concerned that my lovely elderly neighbour has a 'Christ is king' sticker on her car bonnet, despite Jesus being idolised by the same MAGA neo-fascists who seem oblivious to his virtues.

On the flip side Starmer's dad was a toolmaker (in case you hadn't heard) that was a vehement socialist, didn't stop his son from being an ideology-bending charlatan.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
(1)Does it not worry you that a former leader of the opposition holds Karl Marx in high esteem?

(2)It's not Marx's political ideology that is concerning, more the overtures that he believed that the only way to achieve them was through violence and physical uprisings.

(3)Not to say that Corbyn believed any of those things, but I certainly wouldn't visit someone's grave who did believe those things, no matter how much I agree with their political leanings.
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1 - No, many did.
2 - Violence and physical uprisings are the only option left on the table if there is no engagement between the people in power and the masses. Thankfully in Britain, there was enough engagement with the masses through the socialist policies of the Atlee government, which set us on a path to collective prosperity relative to the conditions of the pre-war era. That was until Thatcher sold all our housing stock to current tenants for peanuts in an effort to convert the tenants into property owning Tories. It worked a treat and is the reason we now have a housing crisis.
3 - What graves would you not visit? Churchills? Pharaoh Khufu?
 
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AfonsoAlves said:
Why are we resorting to whataboutism?

The above is also an absolute shit-show, yes and the people involved should have been court-martialled and jailed.

EDIT - Take back the sentence above, having actually read beyond the headline.

The general actually said, "If Corbyn tries to dismantle and shrink the armed forces, scrap trident or pull out of NATO, we'd all mass resign which is in essence a mutiny"

Way different from what the title implied. Nice try though.

Stand by what I said though, Troops firing at a Corbyn poster should be court martialled.
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Oh, to be clear, without the whaboutism:
No, as a (illiterate) Marxist, I don't think it's wrong for a potential PM to be an admirer or Karl Marx.
I also don't think it's "wrong" for the army brass to work with politicians and find a suitable pretext to coup a democratically elected govt which is threatening to change foreign policy, because, well, that's their job. National interest first. I think saying so publicly is a not-so-subtle way of both moving public opinion, and getting the talk started in the circles where it matters. I think it's a bad thing for democracy, though.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
A lot of Keir Starmers criticism comes from both sides, which is the problem.
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I don't think it is 'a problem'... I suspect it confirms to Starmer he is right where he needs to be.
Also it's criticism mostly from the sidelines, more importantly with a 170 majority in parliament, it's impotent criticism.

True, that over the lifetime of this government, if the changes he is calling for have not been made, or progress made towards the objectives not clearly seen, or worst of all nothing has changed.... then he will have to be very carefull about how he goes into the 2029 election, he could perhaps expect to lose half his majority, but still be capable of remaining 'in power' for another 5 years, to see the job finished*

(* for others who maybe observing, I've not used the word 'dial' once)
 
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