I wonder why the media don't go full Pogba hate on Jorginho and Naby Keita, they are performing well below the expectations.
Jorginho | Arsenal player
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Its as Obi Mikel never left.
The Italians at work think he's shit and don't want him anywhere near the NT team.
Brazilian Leon Britton.
Seemingly a lot of big money midfielders struggling with the league these days. Also, whatever happened to midfielders being good all rounders who could do a bit of everything?
Those have always been rare.
Second tweet, ridiculous to think how City dodged bullets like Jorginho, Fred and Sanchez when they were thrown at them. They must be pretty lucky.
Have they? I feel like there has been a definite shit towards more specialist type players over the last decade. Through my life time, just with United, I felt like we always had a midfielder or two who could do every part of the game. They were naturally better in some areas than others, but they worked in every facet of the game, from defence to transitions to attack. Robson, Ince, Keane, Beckham, Scholes, Carrick, Hargreaves, Pogba, to name just a few.
Now we seem to get a plethora of players who only contribute to certain phases of the game. Players like Makalele used to be the exception, not the rule.
You are overrating the versatility of a lot of the players on your list. And there really is very few Makalele's playing at the highest levels right now.
I'm re watching some extended highlights to see the positions he's taking up when Chelsea dont have the ball. There's a move where Arsenal are working it down the left and Jorginho finds himself with 3 Arsenal players between him and his own goal. A fairly decent starting position to look for the danger and snuff it out for his team, since he's the deepest CM...
Kolasinac continues to run the ball down the left confronted by several Chelsea players. 1 of those 3 Arsenal players I mentioned is standing just 5 yards inside of Kolasinac, with 3 Chelsea players around him.
For some reason Jorginho sees the 1 Arsenal player with 2 players around him and another watching and ready to become active if needed and decides he needs to run towards the player and make it 3 vs 2 with Rudiger still there ready to become active if needed.
Meanwhile the other 2 Arsenal players I mentioned at the start are standing centrally, 1 outside the box awaiting a pass for a free long shot. Another is now in the box with nobody marking him.
Kolasinac just continues to run down the left and gets his cross in from the byline where Auba tries a bicycle kick and puts it wide.
Auba was actually under pressure from Alonso so it could have been worse if Kolasinac had found a ball back towards the edge of the area instead. What I will say is that Kante is the player beaten by Kolasinac and allowing the cross to come in and you'd expect better from him. But still I think Jorginho only sees whats right in front of him and has no idea how to defend the space in front of the CBs.
Kolasinac continues to run the ball down the left confronted by several Chelsea players. 1 of those 3 Arsenal players I mentioned is standing just 5 yards inside of Kolasinac, with 3 Chelsea players around him.
For some reason Jorginho sees the 1 Arsenal player with 2 players around him and another watching and ready to become active if needed and decides he needs to run towards the player and make it 3 vs 2 with Rudiger still there ready to become active if needed.
Meanwhile the other 2 Arsenal players I mentioned at the start are standing centrally, 1 outside the box awaiting a pass for a free long shot. Another is now in the box with nobody marking him.
Kolasinac just continues to run down the left and gets his cross in from the byline where Auba tries a bicycle kick and puts it wide.
Auba was actually under pressure from Alonso so it could have been worse if Kolasinac had found a ball back towards the edge of the area instead. What I will say is that Kante is the player beaten by Kolasinac and allowing the cross to come in and you'd expect better from him. But still I think Jorginho only sees whats right in front of him and has no idea how to defend the space in front of the CBs.
No, i'm not.
Beckham was one of the best players in the World as a Right Midfielder in a 4-4-2 but, was just good elsewhere. For Hargreaves' one season here people were wondering what position he was and in the CL final he started at a position he had never played with us before. Carrick was great but, you can throw a lot of the same criticisms at him that people do at Jorginho.
When Jorginho is anchoring title winning midfields which also put in superior performances in Europe we can mention them in the same breath. Jorginho will be lucky to ever get to that level.
Beckham throughout his career proved to be not only a capable central midfielder - although much better on the right - but more importantly (and congruent with the topic at hand) a player who was multi talented. He excelled in both the attacking and defensive portions of the game. He could get stuck in, but he could also spread a mean pass, and deliver a sensational final ball. Incredibly multi talented and versatile player.
Hargreaves was another player who was a true box to box player. He could cover a lot of ground, great in the tackle, was good on the ball, and was also able to drive forward and support the attack. It's no accident that he started the champions league final on the right hand side. Fergie sprung a surprise, and Hargreaves had a brilliant game. Let's not forget he also took a great freekick on his day. Point is, another multi talented player.
As for Carrick, no, you could not accuse peak Carrick of the same failings as peak Jorginho. I think there is terrible misconception amongst football fans in general as to Carrick's skill set. This is a guy that came into our midfield and transformed it, and formed the backbone of the most successful era in our history. For much of it playing in a two with Scholes. Carrick was defensively superb with his positional play and reading of the game. He was also not be bullied on the ball. So already the anti-thesis of Jorginho, who has no legs. Carrick would also greatly contribute to the attacking transitions, not only through his incredible range of passing, but also his ability to step up through midfield and pick out intelligent passes. He was also not afraid of a tackle. People look at later career Carrick and think that's who he was throughout his career, and that is simply not true.
These three you've highlighted just prove my point.
Great post. The underrating of Carrick to big up other clubs signings is ridiculous.
Not really what I was trying to do I was arguing against his idea that players were more well rounded in the recent past when some of the players he mentioned were not even that well rounded.
And Jorginho has had a disappointing start to his PL career. But, he had some good years in Italy and you can not deny that Carrick at points of his career have had similar critiques that Jorginho gets now.
Let Jorginho anchor some title winning midfields and then we can compare. Carrick is an entire different level to Jorginho right now.
Beckham gave effort defensively when played in midfield but, I say the likes of De Bruyne and Bernardo Silva have shown just as much work rate defensively since being converted to midfielders.
And Hargreaves did not have a great first touch and in his one season for us never really looked the business in the position we thought we bought him for.
I never said Jorginho was the same level just they have similar styles and have faced similar criticisms.
I dont think Jorginho is that great, but I also think he would fit better at city. There, his team would dominate possession and he'd be shuttling the ball to Silva and De bruyne, or making longer passes to a dangerous front who can convert opportunities .
His situation at Chelsea isnt good because he's feeding the ball to guys like Kante and Willian, who are clueless in the final third.
In a 4-3-3, one of him or Kante simply has to go. To play them both, they need to play them in a 2-man midfield and get some goal scorers to feed the ball to.
Never said you did
You are clutching at straws in your counter arguments, now looking at isolated traits instead of the bigger picture of what we were talking about. Which was, just for clarity, the assertion that well rounded players have always been rare. Which simply isn't the case. Tactical innovations and evolutions tend to drive the types of players that academies produce, and in times gone past the midfield roles were often much more broadly demanding on just two players, whereas a specialised three has become much more common over the last 10-15 years.
Your poor characterization of Carrick as a player, hints at a perhaps rudimentary understanding of the topic or players at hand.
Every thing in Football comes in and out of fashion. Specialized three man midfields are not new and they have not been much more common in the last 10-15 years.
They most definitely have, especially in English football from where we derived all the aforementioned examples.
Chelsea would be better off playing Luiz in this guy's position, and play someone else as a Centre-Back
Well don't see it personally. He's nothing like Fernandinho, who is a key part in why this City midfield is actually working by doing the dirty stuff. Jorginho would have exposed them more on the back.
The lad looks like he's not just suited for PL. You can't be a DM in England without doing the dirty work whatever your good passing range is. He looks more suited to Serie A or La Liga when the tempo is slower. I'm not even sure about La Liga as wellz considering how Kroos and Modric never worked together well till Madrid inserted a dirty work doing player as Casemiro behind them, so more suited for Serie A yeah.
I agree with you. I just dont think his flaws would be exposed as much at city. If he replaced Fernandinho, he wouldn't do as well, but he'd still be good enough to do the job against most teams. They wanted him to compete with Fernandinho, and although he wouldn't have really done that, he wouldve provided solid depth.
At Chelsea, he was brought in to be the face of Sarriball on the pitch. Sarriball hasn't been very impressive, so he's naturally taken a lot of the blame.
Think the issue here is the confusing or conflation of the DM and DLP roles. Just because the two can start right at the base of midfield, it doesn't mean the skilsets certifiably crossover. Someone like Carrick was a hybrid of the roles, which is why he was so hard for people to define, whilst a player like Pirlo was much more a DLP who, although he could do a defensive job, was enshrouded in workhorses that enabled him to just sweep up loose balls behind them the majority of the time before setting his team back on their way without compromising him.
Jorginho is very clearly a DLP with the usual issues DLP's have when asked to be more than the ball-spraying, deep play-maker, which points towards Chelsea's system or personnel not being a fit to enable him to do what he does best and instead have to focus far more on jobs that he simply isn't equipped to deal with.
We can point to Jorginho's flaws, or we can ask why they are being exposed; you can't bring such a specialised player into a team and then not provide the components for him to be optimised. It's even weirder when you have Gattuso 2.0 in the team, but are asking more of him in the attacking sense than in being the legs and graft that allows your man/men to do what they do best.
Jorginho is very clearly a DLP with the usual issues DLP's have when asked to be more than the ball-spraying, deep play-maker, which points towards Chelsea's system or personnel not being a fit to enable him to do what he does best and instead have to focus far more on jobs that he simply isn't equipped to deal with.
We can point to Jorginho's flaws, or we can ask why they are being exposed; you can't bring such a specialised player into a team and then not provide the components for him to be optimised. It's even weirder when you have Gattuso 2.0 in the team, but are asking more of him in the attacking sense than in being the legs and graft that allows your man/men to do what they do best.
Basically Sarri wants Kanté to be like Allan was to Jorginho. I don't agree with the tendency to say that Kanté not being the traditional holding midfielder is the main problem, but there is no denial after watching extended highlights of their game today that Arsenal could have finished their first half with a bigger advantage. They look much worse than his Napoli side.
It's possibly not just Kanté that needs to be looked at as it'll be the shape of the whole midfield and the backline, too.
If the Napoli shape and system can't be recreated, due to differing personnel, then Sarri has to reconsider or re-model the Chelsea team to suit Jorginho, or take him out of it.
Carrick, Alonso, Busquets. Three players who defined that hybrid role over the past 10-15 years, and three of my favourite players to have watched
True. And it's interesting who they get compared to without people realising what made/makes them different. Very special players for the fact they do two entirely different, but essential jobs for the team simultaneously.Carrick, Alonso, Busquets. Three players who defined that hybrid role over the past 10-15 years, and three of my favourite players to have watched
But those three players would probably have improved under Pep's system.
I don't see the Jorginho comparisons with Carrick. The former's screening of the backline is nowhere near comparable and for all his fabled touches of the ball, he's not a particularly expansive passer. And there's the fact he can barely move. Think he will be phased out when Sarri inevitably gets the bullet.
If you look at how Napoli set up, Kante is being pushed much further forward than Alan. And Jorginho is deeper for Chelsea than Napoli
This is Napoli last season
Jorginho is just ahead of the halfway line. When i look at Chelsea this season he's behind the half way line sitting in front of the CBs
Here Alan is a few yards in front and to the side of Jorginho. But for Chelsea Kante is right behind the right winger Pedro. Same for the left sided CM
Perhaps this is a symptom of the tactics not working at Chelsea. But whatever the reason Jorginho is playing a bit deeper in the premier league and Kante is playing further forward than Alan was at Napoli
Another thing to add beside the Jorginho/Kanté discussion is the third man on Chelsea midfield. So far Kovacic didn't delivered as he probably expected and Barkley had good moments but probably isn't trusted by him for that mission.If you look at how Napoli set up, Kante is being pushed much further forward than Alan. And Jorginho is deeper for Chelsea than Napoli
This is Napoli last season
Jorginho is just ahead of the halfway line. When i look at Chelsea this season he's behind the half way line sitting in front of the CBs
Here Alan is a few yards in front and to the side of Jorginho. But for Chelsea Kante is right behind the right winger Pedro. Same for the left sided CM
Perhaps this is a symptom of the tactics not working at Chelsea. But whatever the reason Jorginho is playing a bit deeper in the premier league and Kante is playing further forward than Alan was at Napoli
Finally, all the problems they had with Morata, Giroud is useful for some situations, Hazard looks likely will not settle as the false 9 like Mertens, and we could go on and on, like maybe he should try more CHO instead Willian.
Even Rudiger and Luis compared to past players Chelsea had for that role... The only chance they have to improve this season is if Higuain adapts quickly and let Hazard go more to his natural role.
Next season they will need to be improved, even if they don't invest a lot.
So meh.
Think he's a fall guy for Chelsea's bigger problems....