Spot on.
Jose is making a squad of warriors!
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I'd rather have a club of footballers tbh. But whatever floats your boat I guess.
Humiliation might be a bit of a strong word for it. But I dont see how conveying these messages in public is more effective at toughening up the players than drilling it into them behind closed doors. (Which was the route SAF overwhelmingly preferred.)
Anyway, Ive discussed this to death elsewhere and cant be arsed to get into it again, the point id make in this thread is I agree the players need to be tougher.
I say we sign Lagertha instead or Harbard who is literally a god. Harbard can even take away the pain of our injured players.
I find it all very tiresome, regularly digging out perfectly fine players so they will run through walls for him. People will pass it off as building a team of warriors or preparing players for the title fight but honestly I think his experiences at Chelsea have just made him overly paranoid.
I can't say I see a great deal of difference between these so called mentally weak players and their renewed versions of themselves, either.
I can't say I see a great deal of difference between these so called mentally weak players and their renewed versions of themselves, either.
And herrera is the commander of it who sets the examples with is bravery and fight.
I say we sign Lagertha instead or Harbard who is literally a god. Harbard can even take away the pain of our injured players.
There is no smoke without fire, every chance its true.
This won't be the first time the players have heard criticism from Jose. He would have spoken to them in private and they havent responded. They're being paid an absurd amount of money to play for one of the biggest teams in the world. Absolute commitment is the minimal a manager can expect of them. Sparing uncommitted players their feelings doesn't come into it.
Fantastic. Let all those stupid clubs focus on the actual football, while we build a team of warriors. I sure hope you are wrong.
That's where I'm at too.
Youre right, its not about their feelings its about their motivation. But yes, for the rest of it I agree, on their salaries they cant complain about extraordinary demands being put on them. My question is only about how best to extract those demands from them. Not what will they like but what will work, and what will maintain the right kind of spirit in the dressing room.
But Im not psychologist, just saying it how it appears to me.
Ah I see.
I just can't see Jose going directly to public criticism without trying it in private first.
He's turning Hufflepuff into Gryffindor
Some years ago we were dreaming of building a team playing like Barcelona. Now we want to emulate Stoke City. Jose is a great man.
Mourinho is Slytherin through and through, surely.
Yes they can. It wouldn't matter how much you pay me, I still wouldn't be able to climb Everest. Not saying that it's the same thing but the principle of equating income to what the body and rules of nature allow is simply illogical.
and apparently only those who have experienced 'death' can 'ghost' into boxes?
We were? When was that? Was it before or after the Neville brothers kicked feck out of Reyes to derail Arsenal's league campaign?
As I was typing the word "superhuman" was in my mind but I realised it was the wrong word because as you say, there are limits to what the human body actually can do. But I went with "extraordinary" instead because that does not imply they are being asked to deliver the impossible. They are being asked to push themselves to the absolute limit. And that is fair enough. Of course, you might not do it no matter what you were paid, in which case I doubt you would make it as a top level footballer. (Certainly not in a Mourinho team anyway.)
(I include myself in that. I put in ordinary effort and get paid a fairly ordinary salary for it.)
But if you trained for the last 20 years to climb it then he could responsibly expect you to at least put some effort in.
Haha.
You know this already but just in case; warriors as in the mentality, not the physical specimen. We are not asking for spartans.
We can take this view of things when we're actually competing for and winning the PL/CL. We can then retrospectively look back and see it was the best path to take. Until then, it all for up for debate and nobody should be insulted for supporting it or being against it.
In general though, I have no issue with any manager being harsh but fair with his players. Not a huge fan of Mourinho airing it publically each time.
In general though, I have no issue with any manager being harsh but fair with his players. Not a huge fan of Mourinho airing it publically each time.
Speak for yourself. I think Jose should force new signings to sleep naked in the pennines overnight, the way Spartan children were left along overnight. Only those who dont die of exposure or get trampled to death by marauding cows should be selected.
and then we purchased Phil Jones.
@Adebesi @ivaldo It is the endless sea of grey areas that is at question then. How do we determine if a player's injury or physical incapacity would render playing in fact a superhuman effort? How can we decide if a player is being indeed too cautious/weak/lacking in bravery or if they are in fact incapable of performing to the best of their abilities because of the limitations of the human body? The only person qualified to know is the doctor and the player himself really, Mourinho and more so, us fans are in no position to ever know such a thing. What we can do however is to look at patterns of players and coaches and their attitudes towards these issues. For example, when Sir Alex criticized Hargreaves and Saha of similar things, or Klopp and many others on Sturridge, you can take their word for it since they are such isolated incidents and the players in question did not have a reputation that argued for the contrary. In the case of Mourinho however, we do know that he has such a low level of patience for unavailable players for whatever reason. He builds a lot of his management approach on the principles of fighting and battling and so on. The idea that someone is unavailable to him has always alienated him to said players and with his emotional tendencies, he simply ends up taking it out on them in a frustrated way like we have seen lately. This of course leads to disciple like players (Zlatan, Terry, Lampard, Arbeloa, Drogba) and ones that he simply feel are not men he "can trust in battle".
When that approach works like it did at Chelsea and Inter to full effect, it leads to the meanest, battle hardened teams you can face. When it doesn't, it creates a civil war. History tells us that it is illogical to expect a full team of Terrys and Zlatans, it is simply is not logical with the diversity of modern football and general attitudes of modern players, Sir Alex understood this and rightfully adapted, Mourinho seems eternally nostalgic about that first Chelsea team. I should add that even if such an approach was logical, I am not sure we as club should want it anyway. A football team cannot win without being tough and warrior like, but there is a difference between having that side to your game, and having your game based on it or you being known for it. The former is necessary to success, the latter is uninspiring and simply non-befitting to a club with our size and status.
When that approach works like it did at Chelsea and Inter to full effect, it leads to the meanest, battle hardened teams you can face. When it doesn't, it creates a civil war. History tells us that it is illogical to expect a full team of Terrys and Zlatans, it is simply is not logical with the diversity of modern football and general attitudes of modern players, Sir Alex understood this and rightfully adapted, Mourinho seems eternally nostalgic about that first Chelsea team. I should add that even if such an approach was logical, I am not sure we as club should want it anyway. A football team cannot win without being tough and warrior like, but there is a difference between having that side to your game, and having your game based on it or you being known for it. The former is necessary to success, the latter is uninspiring and simply non-befitting to a club with our size and status.
Good un. I had to read it twice to get it I can imagine Herrera coming back wearing a sheepskin and jones getting killed by a stinging knettle.I have no problem with his approach; we've looked weak across most of the pitch since Fergie retired and teams have stopped fearing us and in some cases have actually bullied us out of games. It's almost cliché nowadays but watching Noble carry Herrera off the pitch whilst the rest of the team stood back and watched exemplifies everything that we lost under Moyes and LVG.
There's nothing to suggest anything said in the media hasn't already been said behind closed doors, but even if that wasn't the case it should be an absolute minimum requirement that any player that wears the shirt puts everything they have into every single performance, and does their utmost to be available for every match.
That desire and will to win typified every United squad I ever saw under Fergie, and especially the teams through the 90s were filled with strong, physical players that outfought and outplayed the opposition.
I'm not calling for us to aspire to be like Stoke or whatever ridiculous responses might come off the back of this, but I do want us to play like Manchester United again, and it finally feels like we are getting back to something that could feasibly pass as a United side.
If the players we have don't want to fall in line, work hard and help get us back to where we want to be then we shouldn't continue to pad their bank balances with some of the highest wages footballers can possibly earn, along with all the trappings of success that being a Manchester United player offers - cut them loose and let them spend 80% of a season on Arsenal or Bournemouths treatment table instead.
There's nothing to suggest anything said in the media hasn't already been said behind closed doors, but even if that wasn't the case it should be an absolute minimum requirement that any player that wears the shirt puts everything they have into every single performance, and does their utmost to be available for every match.
That desire and will to win typified every United squad I ever saw under Fergie, and especially the teams through the 90s were filled with strong, physical players that outfought and outplayed the opposition.
I'm not calling for us to aspire to be like Stoke or whatever ridiculous responses might come off the back of this, but I do want us to play like Manchester United again, and it finally feels like we are getting back to something that could feasibly pass as a United side.
If the players we have don't want to fall in line, work hard and help get us back to where we want to be then we shouldn't continue to pad their bank balances with some of the highest wages footballers can possibly earn, along with all the trappings of success that being a Manchester United player offers - cut them loose and let them spend 80% of a season on Arsenal or Bournemouths treatment table instead.
Youre right, its an endless sea of grey.
I dont really disagree with much of what you are saying there. I think Mourinho is in a better position to judge than you seem to imply, you have two groups, the player and the doctor in one, Mourinho and us fans in the other. I would say Mourinho is closer to the player and the doctor, seeing as he has access to both, along with his own experience and regular observation of the player.
I think he should be pushing the players pretty hard. Maybe he pushes them too hard, maybe he doesnt. Im happy with what he is doing overall, but less how he is doing it. Its the publicity thing that worries me, not the demands themselves. At the end of the day if the players arent up to it they should leave and play for a manager that will get more out of them. The way I see it, we made Mourinho the manager so we should let him do things his way. And I say again, I did find us too soft, too mentally fragile, in previous seasons. Part of it was about lacking leadership on the field, part of it was losing that never-say-die attitude we used to have. Mourinho looks like he is addressing that, I am pleased about it. Not that he is creating a team of Terrys, simply that he is making us more like what we were under SAF - a bloody tough team he would not be pushed around by anybody. I just wish he would take a different route to reach that destination. Though it may be that in a few seasons his methods will have been vindicated and Ill come to feel I was wrong about this. It wouldnt be the first time.
I remember back in the day when we would talk about technique and tactics. And he can hold players accountable at Carrington and in the dressing room he should not need to use the media.
It's quite surprising that people are rather divided in this.
Fergie was an exceptional manager who instilled winning mentality into his teams.
Our recent teams after Fergie lack the determination and grit to finish off games, apart from taking up responsibility within the dressing room to make the attitude right.
I am done with passengers in our team and people who do not give their 100%. People do have a very short memory. Fergie, apart from his final years, was pretty ruthless in removing players who were detrimental to the team be it mentally or footballing ability wise.
It's great to this back. This should help us have an committed core of players who are genuinely willing to give it all for badge, along with the reinforcements who will strengthen the team in the next transfer window.
Fergie was an exceptional manager who instilled winning mentality into his teams.
Our recent teams after Fergie lack the determination and grit to finish off games, apart from taking up responsibility within the dressing room to make the attitude right.
I am done with passengers in our team and people who do not give their 100%. People do have a very short memory. Fergie, apart from his final years, was pretty ruthless in removing players who were detrimental to the team be it mentally or footballing ability wise.
It's great to this back. This should help us have an committed core of players who are genuinely willing to give it all for badge, along with the reinforcements who will strengthen the team in the next transfer window.
I think the term is being taken a bit too literally here by some. It's a mind set. Zlatan has it. Herrera, Baily, Valencia, Carrick, and others. Not saying these fellows aren't legitimately hurt, but a 'footballer' does you no good if he spends more time in the recovery pool than on the pitch. It's the same in all sports, business, what have you.
I do question Jose making a public issue of it as well. I don't think I'd do that, but he's won a few more trophies and titles than I have.
Maybe its the logical consequence of the social media driven world we live in. Maybe dealing with things behind closed doors is no longer the right way of doing things. Everything else is out in the open these days, maybe it was always going to go this way. Maybe in five years time there'll be a live stream of the half time team talk on the club's facebook page and we'll all laugh that some of us used to find these public proclamations a bit distasteful.
Maybe the simple answer is that it has been addressed so often in private to no effect, that going public is the next option.
People go on about how Mourinho needs to adapt to different characters. How do we know that it isn't because these players react best to a public criticism?
if Jose didn't take it public, the players/agents would have eventually anyway.
Jose is on the right track, Ibra, Bailly, Pogba and Miki (Joses players) have been quality assets this season showing grit and guile. Add De Gea, Mata, Valencia, Herrera etc (pre Jose) to the mix and we have the back bone of something very special going on. Also Shaw, Martial & Lingard are all on the cusp of being top players so it's a very exciting time! The only problem is the older players like Carrick/Rooney and the dead wood like Jones & Smalling need to be replaced properly, and i have every faith in Jose acquiring the right talent. Moyes was a nobody with very little pulling power and LVG couldn't attract the top talent (ADM didn't want United and Falcao was trying to bounce back from an ACL injury) The times they are a changing...... Jose is a winner and winners attract top players. I think one of the only problems United fans will have next year is what player to get on their jersey
Maybe. Im repeating myself now but my feeling is if he has spoken to them in private and its had no effect, Id sooner he just froze them out and sold them. Id sooner he gave chances to fringe players than used the media to achieve a result that a quiet word couldnt achieve.
I know there are different players who respond to things differently. But for me that's a carrot vs. stick question, not a public lashing vs a private lashing question.
I don't think there has ever been a right or wrong way. Different managers have different approaches that can work equally well.
Sir Alex: Mostly kept behind closed doors, knew who to put an arm around and who to give a rollocking and would maintain balance this way.
Mourinho: Has no time for what he views as weak mentality in his squads, he challenges them publicly to test them and drives out the players he believes can't motivate themselves or won't run through walls for him.
Probably because there isn't any.