Agree about using trophies to fully determine the worth of a player and it can be misleading, however on this occasion the point holds up.I often see this type of silly justification: player X has won this or that. But in fact the team/squad and manager is what does the winning (or losing) and the individual player only contributes towards this (or doesn't contribute, as the case may be).
Mata won't even make a starting eleven for top 7 PL clubs.
Leicester play 442 so no place for Mata. Unless if they want to use Mata as a left midfielder.
Arsenal has Ozil
Spurs has Dele Alli
City has Silva and De Bruyne
Rooney or Pogba (if we sign him) or Mkhy will be ahead of Mata
West Ham has Payet
I can see him challenging Oscar at Chelsea, Coutinho/Firmino at Liverpool, and Barkley at Everton. But all of these four players are younger than Mata and has yet in their prime age.
People who said Mata is only good enough for a team targeting 4th or 5th have their point. Chelsea finished 5th and 3rd when Mata was at the club. When he left, they won the league. Good player but United expect more. I also doubt he will make in Sir Alex squad, you look at the attackers we had, they have pace and power.
Agree about using trophies to fully determine the worth of a player and it can be misleading, however on this occasion the point holds up.
Juan Mata was picked as part of a Spanish squad that has an unreal amount of talent especially in a midfield capacity, he's a quality footballer and it's a valid retort to the laughable claims he isn't good enough for the likes of Leicester or Spurs. That in reality is 'silly'...
What is wrong with you? Are you actually comparing dele alli to mata?Mata won't even make a starting eleven for top 7 PL clubs.
Leicester play 442 so no place for Mata. Unless if they want to use Mata as a left midfielder.
Arsenal has Ozil
Spurs has Dele Alli
City has Silva and De Bruyne
Rooney or Pogba (if we sign him) or Mkhy will be ahead of Mata
West Ham has Payet
I can see him challenging Oscar at Chelsea, Coutinho/Firmino at Liverpool, and Barkley at Everton. But all of these four players are younger than Mata and has yet in their prime age.
People who said Mata is only good enough for a team targeting 4th or 5th have their point. Chelsea finished 5th and 3rd when Mata was at the club. When he left, they won the league. Good player but United expect more. I also doubt he will make in Sir Alex squad, you look at the attackers we had, they have pace and power.
Squad lacks quality in depth. If Mata is ok with the bench, then we should keep him.
Fair comment.If he wasn't happy sitting on the bench at Chelsea, he won't here at 28 years of age, hitting his prime. He's gone.
If he wasn't happy sitting on the bench at Chelsea, he won't here at 28 years of age, hitting his prime. He's gone.
27 goals and 38 assists is an exceptional return over two seasons in any team in a top league, never mind for what you suggest a 'poor Chelsea side' which makes it even more impressive.He played for Chelsea when they weren't very good. He was their player of the season when they were relatively poor in the league. Their balance was poor, they weren't a consistent enough side.
The Champions League (which is constantly brought up) was lucky, and had more to do with about five other players than him. Chelsea had long been a team able to grind out cup wins, due mostly to the original core that Mourinho built.
He played as a late substitute (gap-filler) for Spain while they were great. And for any serious team, that's all he could hope for, because his game has holes in it. He's a numbers man, but he often goes missing and gets bullied so easily that it almost cancels out his positives.
Everton is closer to his level than a full strength Chelsea/United. He needs to play for a team (like that poor Chelsea side) that will appreciate his goals/assists too much to care about his downsides.
Not really more impressive. Some players shine more when they play for lesser teams - where the manager isn't as focused on the tiny details. Michu, for example, scored loads. He'd probably fare better with the freedom of Swansea's style than he would under better managers, when tasked with being purposeful for the full game.27 goals and 38 assists is an exceptional return over two seasons in any team in a top league, never mind for what you suggest a 'poor Chelsea side' which makes it even more impressive.
League titles are a better measure of the quality of a side than cup titles. Teams that only win league titles are rightly considered better than teams that only win cups. And teams that win both are rightly considered even better than that.Find it funny how Mata's performances are being played down here when at Chelsea, yet people are wax lyrical over someone like Hazard who played in a superior Chelsea team and has never delivered in Europe. But hey winning one league title and then finishing 10th is obviously far superior to what Mata produced in a weak Chelsea team even winning two European competitions!
Everton being Mata's level is hilarious.
Do you actually think pochettino is going to break up Kane and Alli partnership for Mata? Not worthy.What is wrong with you? Are you actually comparing dele alli to mata?
Not really more impressive. Some players shine more when they play for lesser teams - where the manager isn't as focused on the tiny details. Michu, for example, scored loads. He'd probably fare better with the freedom of Swansea's style than he would under better managers, when tasked with being purposeful for the full game.
Mata is best suited to team that will appreciate his goals/assists too much to care about his weaknesses and lack of general purpose in other areas of the pitch.
League titles are a better measure of the quality of a side than cup titles. Teams that only win league titles are rightly considered better than teams that only win cups. And teams that win both are rightly considered even better than that.
Especially when the Champions League (which is always brought up for Mata) was won in the way Chelsea managed.
You may find it hilarious, but as a starter, Everton is closer to Mata's level than the top clubs/teams are. As a squad player, he's good enough for any team.
We don't know that because mata is not on their team. My whole point was you insinuating that mata wouldn't get in over alli. This might sound a bit odd but I genuinely think mata could also get in over eriksen. Too many people on here overrate the tottenham squad when in reality they are just balanced as a team and suffered little to no injures.Do you actually think pochettino is going to break up Kane and Alli partnership for Mata? Not worthy.
We don't know that because mata is not on their team. My whole point was you insinuating that mata wouldn't get in over alli. This might sound a bit odd but I genuinely think mata could also get in over eriksen. Too many people on here overrate the tottenham squad when in reality they are just balanced as a team and suffered little to no injures.
Agreed. With knobs on. This place!Great player to have in the squad, just not a world class playmaker we thought we were getting. Comes up with important goals and assists in big games. I would still keep him. especially over the captain
I haven't even mentioned his United form, so no idea why you've brought it up. I've only mentioned his time at Chelsea, and I've only done so because people harp on about it as if he played a part in some great team. The reality is that Chelsea were cack, and only won the Champions League through good fortune and the winning/big game mentality of Mourinho's original core/spine.Except the Chelsea team he was shining in was unquestionably better than the United team he wasn't shining in when played out of position over the past 3 years. Mata's lesser performance at United wasn't about levels because you were playing at a lesser level yourselves for 3 years.
Weird underrating and downplaying of Mata going on here.
You would think he just had some two fluke season's with stoke.
I agree. Mata is way better than people are giving him credit for. He was superb for Chelsea but has had to deal with Moyes and LVG at Utd... and lets face it, most of the squad have been playing well below their level under those two. I honestly think Mourinho will keep Mata and bring out the best in him again.Weird underrating and downplaying of Mata going on here.
You would think he just had some two fluke season's with stoke.
People can't use the "not my money" argument here. Why? Because if a sub earn this much, the starters who were on low wage would want a rise too. Then the other subs: "he sits on the bench just like me and receive this much wage..."He's presumably on pretty sizable wages for a backup player. I guess we'll have to wait and see how Jose uses him. If he's only going to be a bit part player, and we could get a decent transfer fee for him then it'd probably be worth trading him in. He's not a player who is going to lead you to titles which is what we want out of our top earners.
Edit: From what I can find he's on about £165k a week. That's surely too much to be paying if you don't plan on using him as a regular first 11 player. I know a lot of people like to ignore finances, "It's not my money so why do I care?" etc. But the money has to come from somewhere, so if you're spending too much in one area it has to limit you in some other area if you want to run things sensibly.
The other thing is it limits how much you can use to offer to new signings because as much as we would like to say the club is swimming in money there is obviously a limit on how much you can use to pay wages. If Mata is on £165k/wk, surely thats a lot of money which can be used to attract a player or two that are more useful to the club's ambitions.He's presumably on pretty sizable wages for a backup player. I guess we'll have to wait and see how Jose uses him. If he's only going to be a bit part player, and we could get a decent transfer fee for him then it'd probably be worth trading him in. He's not a player who is going to lead you to titles which is what we want out of our top earners.
Edit: From what I can find he's on about £165k a week. That's surely too much to be paying if you don't plan on using him as a regular first 11 player. I know a lot of people like to ignore finances, "It's not my money so why do I care?" etc. But the money has to come from somewhere, so if you're spending too much in one area it has to limit you in some other area if you want to run things sensibly.
I haven't even mentioned his United form, so no idea why you've brought it up. I've only mentioned his time at Chelsea, and I've only done so because people harp on about it as if he played a part in some great team. The reality is that Chelsea were cack, and only won the Champions League through good fortune and the winning/big game mentality of Mourinho's original core/spine.
Whether Chelsea were better than United (over the past 3 seasons) is irrelevant. He's still never played for a top side, and in my opinion, he's not good enough for one. The less organised the team is, and the less attention to detail the manager demands, the better he'll be.
If anything, despite United being woeful under him, the style van Gaal introduced was more controlled and more in the style of a top team than anything Mata's Chelsea played. Which is why it's little wonder he's not standing out.
Give Mata the ball all game, and ask him to show purpose and open up a deep defence - and he goes missing. But play him in a more end-to-end game against a stretched defence, and with a higher pace and less structure - he'll do the business. Unfortunately for him, the top managers tend to want to play a tighter, more secure game.
And he hasn't been played out of position over the past 3 years.
He's presumably on pretty sizable wages for a backup player. I guess we'll have to wait and see how Jose uses him. If he's only going to be a bit part player, and we could get a decent transfer fee for him then it'd probably be worth trading him in. He's not a player who is going to lead you to titles which is what we want out of our top earners.
Edit: From what I can find he's on about £165k a week. That's surely too much to be paying if you don't plan on using him as a regular first 11 player. I know a lot of people like to ignore finances, "It's not my money so why do I care?" etc. But the money has to come from somewhere, so if you're spending too much in one area it has to limit you in some other area if you want to run things sensibly.
Anyway, another report came out today saying Mourinho has told him to stay but that he can't play every game.
Won't surprise me if it's Mata pushing for a move.
Would be pretty annoyed if any of those three were sold, to be honest. Mata definitely has a place in our squad, and arguably in our current starting XI, too. He's unlucky to have played under two managers at United that strangled the life out of the flair in our squad.I've heard Mata wants to stay but Mourinho wants him to move on. He's looking for offers for Blind as well. And Everton area interested in Schneiderlin.
I've heard Mata wants to stay but Mourinho wants him to move on. He's looking for offers for Blind as well. And Everton area interested in Schneiderlin.
No, you don't have to be a top team to win any cup. You need to be a top team to win a league competition. And even better to win a league and cup double/treble. That Chelsea team weren't great, so why pretend?They were a top 3 team though and they were a tad lucky but you have to be a top team to win the CL as much as I dislike them as club.
Villas Boas' team were cack. Di Matteo's team were cack. And they somehow lucked their way to the Champions League trophy in a the jammiest way in the history of the competition.That's not true, AVB played possession football and Mata excelled and he also excelled under RDM's counter attacking set up and under Rafa. Mourinho didn't play him supposedly because of his lack of defensive workrate.
No... he played wide for Chelsea, especially once Oscar and Hazard arrived. He was considered a winger at Valencia and played wide. He's really only considered a central attacking midfielder because they were becoming fashionable due to other (better) players in that role at the time he was doing well.[/QUOTE]He's a CAM, Moyes and LVG played him wide an awful lot where he simply doesn't have the pace.
