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Juventus accused of false accounting by Italian prosecutors | UEFA kick Juve out of Conference League
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John Elkann manages (very well) the financial aspect of the Exor conglomerate, without any popular appeal. Andrea Agnelli has (had…) a soft spot and a (failed…) vision for football because he grew up watching his father Umberto and his uncle Gianni lead the team in person. What Elkann aims to do with Juventus in the long term is more important than the circus and the possible consequences coming from this investigation.
It doesn't answer the question. You said that nobody outside of Andrea really cared about Juventus which to me would be surprising, the head of the family, the one made the heir of the family by Gianni Agnelli should care about Juventus, simply because it's one of Gianni Agnelli's legacies.
Now as far as I know Elkann isn't a clown while Andrea has been described as dubious, so the way they may see Juventus ideal management could be widely different.
Simply put, Agnelli is a fan while Elkann is a suit. As a fan, I trust the former more, even when I am (and he is) wrong.
Prosecution carrying the case against the individuals as opposed to the company? Dunno. Mostly, the investigation made their position untenable
This is pretty accurate actually
well, nedved stayed at juventus......
Conspiracy hat on: this is all a ploy by John to get rid of Andrea without risking a war within the family
John Elkann never seemed to be a fan of football, being Gianni's grandson and heir the priority with him was always the running of the financial empire(as opposed to Lapo, the family Fredo, whose priority presumably was accompanying Gianni in cocaine-fueled prostitue binges). Whereas Andrea - son of Gianni's brother Umberto - was always close to juventus, a fan, and much more interested, often accompanying his father when he was president.
Juventus loses money. And the only money-losing branch of the empire John seems to care for is Ferrari
Abu Dhabi on the other side of the Cancelo-Danilo deal.
What are the odds of someone in England investigating that?
Why?
Love the way Platini is now being linked to a boardroom position given his history - perfect for the new Juve board!
Imagine supporting a club that is always getting done cause shady people keep running it.
They defend them regardless of what they do, I’ve never seen a Juve fan that didn’t try to spin what they’ve done as morally fine.
I'd imagine lots of clubs do it or similar, look at Utd, Ed was hardly renewing deals to preserve player market value just for the sake of it. That's being accounted for and offset somewhere in the books.
The difference is that Juve have been caught completely taking the piss with valuations. The Pjanic deal looked suss from day 1, it was totally obvious it wasn't purely for footballing reasons.
City are under investigation by the FA?
What United do and Juve did are entirely different.
Juve are being investigated for two things. Falsely inflating values of transfer fees and not reporting wage deferments from the Covid period when they were eventually paid.
United were handing out new contracts so the players retain book value. What United do is entirely legal and decent accounting strategy on the face of it.
I'm not saying what they did is the same, just saying you can guarantee there's shady accounting practices going on right through top level football.
Giving players with no footballing purpose new contracts to maintain book value for accounting purposes is in my opnion one of them. Especially when you consider at Utd most of these players will leave or have left for nothing at all. (Perreira - 10m, Lingard - 0, Mata - 0, Matic - 0, Bailly / Jones - will be zero) None of that value or very little of it ever really gets realised, they were just being used to inflate values all while costing the club money and eventually leaving for nothing.
Juve got caught mostly because they took the absolute piss, otherwise it would probably have been ignored like City's sponsors.
Given what's happened here, maybe you need more suits and less fans calling the shots.
By Uefa and by the Premier League
Juventus, getting caught and relegated once for this is bad enough, but getting caught twice is just stupid.
Lingard's and Pereira's book value was always 0. Jones's is approximately 0. The others probably cost more in wages than their book value increased (edit: retained). United's (not very successfull) strategy was an attempt to create resale value, not to retain book value.
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Thank you
For faking their sponsorship. Nobody investigated them for artificially inflating the same transfers that Juventus are investigated for.
I see. Was there not transfer nonsense as part of that Der Speigel expose?
Is it just inflating some transfers?
Citys investigation covers a wide range of FFP. Underage players, under the table payments etc.
You made out that England wouldn’t have the balls to investigate City, they clearly do.
I don't disagree with the responses that you've had on this (that La Liga has a bit of a vested interest in making other leagues look bad), but in theory this shouldn't be the case. Football is such a globalised business, and the influence of one league on another (notably players value) is so big that it actually matters what happens in other leagues - a level playing field, basically.
Once a thief always a thief. Juventus should be banned forever, don't let them play even in the serie D.
Funny thing are the fans, listening to so many stupid, idiotic, degeneric justification, which insult human intelligence. Every single time something pops up against them..they are guilty, with evidence, but no, they still manage to escape any sanctions. Today, ask any 7y old child about Juventus and his first words/answer will be, robbers.
Funny thing are the fans, listening to so many stupid, idiotic, degeneric justification, which insult human intelligence. Every single time something pops up against them..they are guilty, with evidence, but no, they still manage to escape any sanctions. Today, ask any 7y old child about Juventus and his first words/answer will be, robbers.
Well, Italians have proved before that they have the balls to punish big clubs, even when it was going to degrade their league gravely.
Let's see if there will be some sort of consequences for City. Abu Dhabi have been screwing the system for years. And it seems that we don't want to tarnish the image of the most profitable league in the history of football by revealing that their 4 in 5 (and all the point records) was just a giant fraud.
Newcastle's owners said they spend time trying to buy a club in Italy, but elected to invest in the most friendly league (I think there is something making the PL so attractive to the most honest of investors. But I hope I am wrong and City owners will get their day)
But to be fair to English football, the finance impunity is not exclusive to football.
https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/world-...on-money-laundering-capital-of-the-world.html
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Juventus have been found to err in two different ways.
1. The first is that they agreed with players and personnel that they would waive their right to part of their income during the COVID 19 pandemic while the club only promised to consider paying a loyalty bonus at an undisclosed sum after the pandemic. In fact, they had entered into side agreements with many players to just defer the payments until after the pandemic.
As a result, Juventus had an understated loss in 20/21 and an overstated loss in 21/22. If you postpone payments of salary in 20/21 it should still be accounted for in 20/21, instead it was accounted for in 21/22.
I am very doubtful that this could have happened to us.
Juventus’ auditor Deloitte remarks on it in the Auditors report for the annual report for the financial year 21/22 — only after an investigation had been started by the authorities. Since Juventus is listed on a regulated market (Euronext Milan) — it’s half year report is also audited. EY was the auditor until June 21’. Hence, this was not detected during 3 if not 4 audit occasions.
The fact that secret agreements aren’t noticed might be explained, but when they start to pay out really massive ex gratia payments in 21/22 it’s very strange that it’s not detected earlier.
And if you want to find the mother of all red flags, it’s when a company changes auditors — before — some crap is detected. Why did Juventus kick out EY and bring in Deloitte in 21’? What you suspect is definitely that EY had flagged the issue but instead of exposing it, walked away.
It is always hard go ultimately prove crimes in this area, what is reckless/ignorance/stupidity and what is done with intent? But all the way — from an objective point of view — several different crimes have been committed. Market manipulation for sure. Tax and accounting crimes. Possibly insider trading. Possibly fraud. Juventus raised capital on two different occasions during this period. Anyone involved definitely is really exposed to law suits from investors in those capital raises.
I just find it very very hard that it could go this far unless there is a very corrupt mentality in place already.
2. When you buy or sell a player it’s straightforward how the transfer fee is accounted for.
If you buy a player for say 10m and sign the player to a 5 year contract, you remove 10m from the Cash item on your balance sheet and add 10m to your assets — then 10m is amortized in a straight line over the length of the contract (5 years), ie 2m per year.
If you then sell the same player for 10m when he has 1 year left on his contract, you remove an asset of 2m from the balance sheet (8m have been written off already) and add 10m to Cash.
So very simple and straight forward.
But let’s say we sell Pellestri to a Spanish team for 10m + 25% of any future income the Spanish club get if they sell Pellestri in the future — how do you value the potential add-on? Pursuant to the IFRS (the accounting principles for listed groups) — an estimate must be done.
I don’t know the details of the questionable transactions, there is supposedly at least 6 transactions involving at least some younger player.
The Arthur (76m)/Pjanic (60m) transaction stinks. Juve bought Pjanic for 30m in 2015 and signs him to a 4 year contract, which then is extended after 3 years. Hence he is valued at zero when he is sold to Barca for 60m — which means that Juventus all of a sudden makes a profit of 60m when they buy Arthur for 16m + the rights for Pjanic… What kind of support did they have to assign Pjanic a value of 60m? Did Barca really value him to 60m?
As I can see from our Annul Deport, it’s not possible to see how we value these add on rights and any cross transactions. But I would be very surprised if we did anything to inflate them — it’s only a short sighted synthetic gain. Like let’s say we sell Pellestri for 100m to Juventus while we buy a failed youth from them for 90m — ie Juventus pay us 10m for Pellestri plus the right to a kid, but we inflated the kids value in the books — we make a profit of 80-90m, but we have to write of the kid we got from Juventus over the length of that kid’s contract. Let’s say the Juventus kid gets a 3 year contract — the “profit” we made by inflating the prices comes back and we suffer them as losses over a 3 year period.
And like — these ‘guesstimates’ done in accordance to the IFRS are super sensitive. The auditors spend a ton of time on them and my experience is that they always are very modest to err on the right side of caution. It’s just another indication that there is a rotten/corrupt atmosphere in place which have enabled them.
3. The comparison to City is flawed from my POV.
City’s financing is a scam — in that pure donations/contributions are labeled as something else, like arms-length business transactions.
From all — non-FFP rules POV — it’s the last thing you want to do. If an owner makes a contribution to a company it’s not taxed. It’s booked as equity. And when the owner sells the club, he gets to deduct the contribution from the profit made. If the same owner fakes the capital contribution and call it a “advertisement fee” or whatever, it’s taxable income for the club and the owner cannot deduct it when the club is sold.
British authorities cannot investigate this. It’s like investing someone that secretly put a lot of money in the mailbox of the IRS despite not owing the IRS any tax.
What they do is scam the UEFA but only UEFA can investigate that, it’s not criminal (at least very much harder to claim that it’s criminal).
Cooking your books while raising close to 600m in new issue of shares is punished like it’s pure theft but under different name (fraud/market manipulation).
4. Will we see a fire sale from Juventus? I don’t think so — unless they get in trouble with the Financial Fair Play rules.
In 4-5 years, they should get a “hefty” fine from the Italian Supervisory Authority for inter alia breaking provisions of the Market Abuse Regulation. What is hefty? Could be like 25 MEUR, but I would guess that it’s more like 2-5 MEUR.
The club has raised like 600m in share issues. How much of those shares were subscribed for the parent company of which the Chair of Juventus FC is the representative? I would guess at least 67%. They knew about the cooked books. Could be some lawsuits — but primary against the now resigned directors personally. Not Juventus FC.
But like I said, if Juventus financials haven’t been in order — they could be relegated. But that would surprise me, since their economy now is in order.
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It’s quite unique how in football, somehow, some way, the joke is always on Spurs
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Feckin Mafia... Burn them all or something!
Paratici should've been in jailed for selecting Nuno as the Tottenham head coach.
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Time to take advantage and get Vlahovic.
So, looks like I had this one wrong. Thanks. Only purchased players are classified as assets over the lifetime of their first contract. Youth players who come through are valued at 0 and players who renew after that first contract also get revalued to 0.
Makes even less sense to keep them and pay them for years only to then let them leave for nothing in that case.
I think that sign on fees for a contract get classified as an asset too, so when a player is resigned costs associated with the resigning of the player counts the same was as a transfer fee. Since it’s more or less arbitrary what is labeled as salary or sign on fee this is also surely something teams play around with to get flexibility under the FFP.
There is also a lot of focus on how much salaries teams are paying. That doesn’t say much from my POV.
Pension schemes can also be used, I recon.
Tebas is a bufoon that's trying to disguise that he failed to capitalize on the Barsa-Messi/Madrid-Ronaldo dominance years by huffing and puffing and accusing everyone of cheating. Microscopic pecker energy.
And as side thing, Agnelli was one of the main Super League backers. Another nail in that coffin.
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Had they accepted that swap it definitely would have been evidence of some sort of sketchy activity on their end
So they're capable of competent management once in a while.
Couldn't have happened to a nicer club. One of the most corrupt clubs in football history. they've been doing stuff like this since the 70s!