Kashmir

[berbatrick]

Because no country will ever opt for a referendum particularly after the calamity like Brexit? Not trying to score cheap points, but do you think Pakistani will ever ask Balochistanis for a referendum? It'll never happen particularly in our region where Kashmir is so important for India for security reasons. It sounds good in theory but there's not a single India/Pakistani leader who'll ever opt for this referendum.

Bit in bold I've never understood. It would be a much easier country to defend if we didn't have the bit at the top. Glazers etc are hard to monitor, and posting soldiers there is very expensive and costs dozens of lives even away from war.

 

[prath92]

Three statements, all false. Good going.

How is that false when that’s literally what you said? I mean then what was the relevance of bringing up the religion of a politician in the exchange you had a few days ago? Or do you go around judging people’s opinions simply based on what religion they follow?

Mate, the only issue people seem to have is with the way it was handled. Literally everyone else agree that it was the right thing to do removing it

Among the hindu population maybe but certainly not in kashmir.

Dude don’t be dumb man. Even staunchest haters of Modi govt like Arvind Kejriwal have said that removing the article was the right thing to do.

So your response to my among the hindu population but not kashmir is to quote a hindu politician?

 

[MJJ]

Because no country will ever opt for a referendum particularly after the calamity like Brexit? Not trying to score cheap points, but do you think Pakistani will ever ask Balochistanis for a referendum? It'll never happen particularly in our region where Kashmir is so important for India for security reasons. It sounds good in theory but there's not a single India/Pakistani leader who'll ever opt for this referendum.

I don't mean a referendum for whether they want to remain part of india or not, that obviously will never happen (same with balochistan). The removal of Article 370 doesn't have to be the same as whether you want to stay in India or not though.

Mate you are like the Pakistani Tucker Carlson yet you go around complaining that others are brainwashed. It's hard to have a discussion with folks who don't understand their own history, let alone the history of others, or, even worse, choose to ignore certain historical facts and realities to advance an agenda.

Surprisingly, very few have actually tried to have a discussion instead posting stuff like cricket, china, gdp, etc. Pillow did and I engaged him.

 

[sport2793]

Bit in bold I've never understood. It would be a much easier country to defend if we didn't have the bit at the top. Glazers etc are hard to monitor, and posting soldiers there is very expensive and costs dozens of lives even away from war.

The issue is that if the Chinese/Pakistanis had free movement across the Kashmir valley there are no natural roadblocks to a larger scale invasion. With control at Siachen, India can funnel invading forces into easily defensible positions and prevent Pakistani and Chinese forces from coordinating more effectively.

 

[MJJ]

How is that false when that’s literally what you said? I mean then what was the relevance of bringing up the religion of a politician in the exchange you had a few days ago? Or do you go around judging people’s opinions simply based on what religion they follow?

If you can't see the relevance of the religion of modi then there is no point having this conversation as you apparently are not aware at all of his policies or back ground.

 

[sport2793]

If you can't see the relevance of the religion of modi then there is no point having this conversation as you apparently are not aware at all of his policies or back ground.

To be fair, I don't think Modi is a fervent religious warrior although I do believe that elements of BJP, some in higher up positions, are extremely dangerous in terms of their willingness to foment religious divisions. It would be nice if these people were removed from the equation but in a democracy, sometimes the stupid voices can rise to prominence. That sums up the issue in India right now where free market economics are not joined by liberal social policies by any major party.

 

[MJJ]

To be fair, I don't think Modi is a fervent religious warrior although I do believe that elements of BJP, some in higher up positions, are extremely dangerous in terms of their willingness to foment religious divisions. It would be nice if these people were removed from the equation but in a democracy, sometimes the stupid voices can rise to prominence. That sums up the issue in India right now where free market economics are not joined by liberal social policies by any major party.

Its the same situation as trump, whether he is racist or is he only appeasing his base? The actual answer sadly doesn't matter as the actions are the same.

 

[prath92]

If you can't see the relevance of the religion of modi then there is no point having this conversation as you apparently are not aware at all of his policies or back ground.

why would Arvind Kejriwal’s religion matter then? He isn’t in bjp and he agreed with the removal of the article but condemned the method. No one talked about religion. My point was that irrespective of people hating modi or not, one thing almost all agree on was that article 370 needed to go.

 

[MJJ]

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Even the BBC are not safe from allegations of bias and false reporting.

 

[sport2793]

Its the same situation as trump, whether he is racist or is he only appeasing his base? The actual answer sadly doesn't matter as the actions are the same.

Actually it isn't the same situation with Trump as I know for a fact he is a racist. He's gone above and beyond what he needed to in terms of appeasing the base. His reaction after Charlottesville was disgraceful and ended all uncertainty on that front. Equally, he's promoted figures such as Stephen Miller who in many ways is a modern day Goebbels.

 

[MJJ]

why would Arvind Kejriwal’s religion matter then? He isn’t in bjp and he agreed with the removal of the article but condemned the method. No one talked about religion. My point was that irrespective of people hating modi or not, one thing almost all agree on was that article 370 needed to go.

My statement. "Among the hindu population maybe but certainly not in kashmir."

Your response "Dude don’t be dumb man. Even staunchest haters of Modi govt like Arvind Kejriwal have said that removing the article was the right thing to do."

My response "So your response to my among the hindu population but not kashmir is to quote a hindu politician? "

Is that clearer?

Okay, I will bite. Whats the proof for that statement?

 

[MJJ]

Actually it isn't the same situation with Trump as I know for a fact he is a racist. He's gone above and beyond what he needed to in terms of appeasing the base. His reaction after Charlottesville was disgraceful and ended all uncertainty on that front. Equally, he's promoted figures such as Stephen Miller who in many ways is a modern day Goebbels.

You only need to read the trump thread to see how many argued for so long that he is not racist but only appeasing to his base and that is on the caf, which is generally a liberal forum.

Both trump and modi deal in the same currency and I am not the only saying it.

This is the dog-eats-dog world created by Donald Trump, Xi Jinping, Vladimir Putin and copycat ultra-nationalist “strongman” leaders.

 

[2cents]

Bit in bold I've never understood. It would be a much easier country to defend if we didn't have the bit at the top. Glazers etc are hard to monitor, and posting soldiers there is very expensive and costs dozens of lives even away from war.

I’d have thought that’s the most straightforwardly rational explanation for India’s attachment to the state. If you’re concerned about the possibility of a Pakistani and/or Chinese invasion, far better to face them up in the valleys and Glazers rather than along a line somewhere between Jammu and Pathankot, from where it’s a relatively short and straightforward march to Delhi. Likewise the Pakistanis are surely happier facing the Indian army at the LoC rather than at, say, Abbotabad.

 

[berbatrick]

@2cents @sport2793

thanks.

 

[MJJ]

I’d have thought that’s the most straightforwardly rational explanation for India’s attachment to the state. If you’re concerned about the possibility of a Pakistani and/or Chinese invasion, far better to face them up in the valleys and Glazers rather than along a line somewhere between Jammu and Pathankot, from where it’s a relatively short and straightforward march to Delhi. Likewise the Pakistanis are surely happier facing the Indian army at the LoC rather than at, say, Abbotabad.

From a warfare point of view, its always better to attack from two separate sides rather than from one and divide the enemy's attention. I will say its a simple fact that no country will ever willingly give up land.

Although this would never happen.

 

[2cents]

From a warfare point of view, its always better to attack from two separate sides rather than from one and divide the enemy's attention.

Sure, and the Chinese always threaten that possibility in the east from Sikkim and Arunchal Pradesh. It’s something Pakistanis should really take into account when considering India’s hold on Kashmir (and the same applies vice versa) - before any reduction to nationalist politics, there is a classic security dilemma driving Indian/Pakistani/Chinese actions in Kashmir.

 

[MJJ]

Sure, and the Chinese always threaten that possibility in the east from Sikkim and Arunchal Pradesh. It’s something Pakistanis should really take into account when considering India’s hold on Kashmir (and the same applies vice versa) - before any reduction to nationalist politics, there is a classic security dilemma driving Indian/Pakistani/Chinese actions in Kashmir.

Honestly the best solution would be to give the people of the valley autonomy and some sort of political structure akin to Hong Kong or let them choose, it's stupid the loss of life and money spent over this one region.

World powers should have stepped in ages ago and sorted it out one way or the other.

 

[sport2793]

From a warfare point of view, its always better to attack from two separate sides rather than from one and divide the enemy's attention. I will say its a simple fact that no country will ever willingly give up land.

Although this would never happen.

Haha alright, folks can take your word on that and ignore 1962 and 1965. Pakistan and China can attack on two separate sides now, that's not what Siachen prevents. Control at Siachen prevents invading forces from attacking from higher to lower elevation through an open valley which is a far greater security risk than the fields of Punjab where China cannot coordinate with Pakistan and where India will control the game via maneuver warfare. As it's the highest point, India can monitor any activity along the highway that can link Pakistani and Chinese military operations. It also turns out that Siachen and the surrounding area serves as a crucial source of water for irrigation, which could be cut off in a hostile situation if India did not have control over this area.

If India and China were allies instead of Pakistan, it would be vital for Pakistan to control Siachen for similar reasons.

 

[2cents]

Honestly the best solution would be to give the people of the valley autonomy and some sort of political structure akin to Hong Kong or let them choose, it's stupid the loss of life and money spent over this one region.

World powers should have stepped in ages ago and sorted it out one way or the other.

Won’t happen, for reasons similar to the Kurds - landlocked, mountainous terrain controlled and coveted by often mutually hostile and more powerful states, and with a reputation for terrorism.

 

[MJJ]

Haha alright, folks can take your word on that and ignore 1962 and 1965. Pakistan and China can attack on two separate sides now, that's not what Siachen prevents. Control at Siachen prevents invading forces from attacking from higher to lower elevation through an open valley which is a far greater security risk than the fields of Punjab where China cannot coordinate with Pakistan and where India will control the game via maneuver warfare. As it's the highest point, India can monitor any activity along the highway that can link Pakistani and Chinese military operations. It also turns out that Siachen and the surrounding area serves as a crucial source of water for irrigation, which could be cut off in a hostile situation if India did not have control over this area.

If India and China were allies instead of Pakistan, it would be vital for Pakistan to control Siachen for similar reasons.

I am sorry my opinion offends you so much.

Won’t happen, for reasons similar to the Kurds - landlocked, mountainous terrain controlled and coveted by often mutually hostile and more powerful states, and with a reputation for terrorism.

If the kashmiris are happy and not repressed, this will die down. Terrorism always needs a breeding ground and a target for hatred.

 

[2cents]

If the kashmiris are happy and not repressed, this will die down. Terrorism always needs a breeding ground and a target for hatred.

I agree (and same applies to the Kurds), but the reputation is there now, and current global sentiments being what they are, the mere mention of ‘jihad’ is enough to convince most countries that ‘self-determination’ is something that can wait, indefinitely. On that, India and China can both agree.

 

[sport2793]

Haha alright, folks can take your word on that and ignore 1962 and 1965. Pakistan and China can attack on two separate sides now, that's not what Siachen prevents. Control at Siachen prevents invading forces from attacking from higher to lower elevation through an open valley which is a far greater security risk than the fields of Punjab where China cannot coordinate with Pakistan and where India will control the game via maneuver warfare. As it's the highest point, India can monitor any activity along the highway that can link Pakistani and Chinese military operations. It also turns out that Siachen and the surrounding area serves as a crucial source of water for irrigation, which could be cut off in a hostile situation if India did not have control over this area.

If India and China were allies instead of Pakistan, it would be vital for Pakistan to control Siachen for similar reasons.

As a corollary to this post, Siachen would be nice for Pakistan to have as it would allow for the Chinese to help out in the inevitable situation that Pakistan loses a conventional war against India. Think how the Chinese helped in the Korean war by flooding troops across the Yalu river to push back UN forces. Without Siachen, Pakistan will think twice about starting a wider scale conflict as they know that China cannot directly intervene and turn the tide. Instead Pakistan would be forced to use nukes which would be a loss for everyone. This is why the Kargil war strategy was nefariously intelligent by Musharraf (by endagering supply routes to Siachen while not inviting a larger scale conflict in the hopes of forcing India to have to withdraw from the glacier) until it was thwarted.

 

[MJJ]

I agree (and same applies to the Kurds), but the reputation is there now, and current global sentiments being what they are, the mere mention of ‘jihad’ is enough to convince most countries that ‘self-determination’ is something that can wait, indefinitely. On that, India and China can both agree.

Yup, in addition to that, both India and China are hoping for similar goals in Hong Kong and Kashmir. It would not make sense for either of them to publicly oppose the other's plans.

 

[sport2793]

I am sorry my opinion offends you so much.

I'm not personally offended but do scratch my head at the opportunistic ignorance and lack of historical understanding with which certain people have been stating their claims. Again, the Pakistani view point has had concerning similarities to fake news Fox News.

 

[MJJ]

I'm not personally offended but do scratch my head at the opportunistic ignorance and lack of historical understanding with which certain people have been stating their claims. Again, the Pakistani view point has had concerning similarities to fake news Fox News.

Everything I have posted in this thread has been from international sources, so which particular post do you think has concerning similarities to fake news Fox News and which pakistani do you think wrote the article for them? Its funny how you can't see the biased reporting by India on Kashmir which is even being picked up by international news papers.

As for Pakistan and China attacking India together, that is my personal opinion that it would not happen in the future. China doesn't need to appease Pakistan by attacking India and has a lot more to lose than us which is why I think (and hope) it will never happen. If you guys had a normal person in charge instead of a nationalistic right wing loon, we would be heading towards peace talks right now.

 

[MJJ]

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Its sad that this is what the kashmiri women are facing. Doesn't stop the likes of lord sinister laughing it off as memes though.

 

[RedTiger]

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Even the BBC are not safe from allegations of bias and false reporting.

The replies to the tweet are par the course

 

[Ekkie Thump]

The replies to the tweet are par the course

In amongst the vast array of woeful replies is the reasonable point that quite a few of the the protesters in the BBC footage were displaying Jaish-e-Mohammed flags along with what appears to be a large poster of an ISIS fighter.

 

[Member 60376]

This is a classic.

Rich coming from you! Anyway have a happy eid today. I hope you get diarrhoea

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Pakistan’s New Plight in Kashmir: What to Do About the Jihadists
Islamabad faces international pressure to crack down on extremist groups focused on the disputed territory and domestic pressure to counter India’s new strategy there

https://www.wsj.com/articles/pakist...ir-what-to-do-about-the-jihadists-11565523414

 

[MJJ]

The replies to the tweet are par the course

Among the replies is a tweet from an indian army major saying he welcomes people waving the Pakistani flag as they will be shot and shot again.

It's amazing how they don't see kashmiris as humans.

 

[milemuncher777]

Magsaysay Awardee Sandeep Pandey Briefly Put Under House Arrest Over Article 370 Protest

Magsaysay Awardee Sandeep Pandey Briefly Commenting on the Centre’s Kashmir move, Pandey said, “The BJP government doesn’t want any other viewpoint on Kashmir than its own to be projected. They have suppressed the voice of Kashmiris and now they don’t want anybody even outside Kashmir to talk about it.”Put Under House Arrest Over Article 370 Protest

https://thewire.in/rights/magsaysay-sandeep-pandey-kashmir-article-370

 

[MJJ]

Magsaysay Awardee Sandeep Pandey Briefly Put Under House Arrest Over Article 370 Protest

Magsaysay Awardee Sandeep Pandey Briefly Commenting on the Centre’s Kashmir move, Pandey said, “The BJP government doesn’t want any other viewpoint on Kashmir than its own to be projected. They have suppressed the voice of Kashmiris and now they don’t want anybody even outside Kashmir to talk about it.”Put Under House Arrest Over Article 370 Protest

https://thewire.in/rights/magsaysay-sandeep-pandey-kashmir-article-370

@digitalnirvana would probably accuse the guy of wumming.

 

[MJJ]

Srinagar: With the unprecedented government clampdown and information blockade in Kashmir entering its second week, banks and ATMs are falling short of cash, local and wholesale markets and chemist shops are running out of supplies, and bakeries, grocery shops and markets for sacrificial sheep are seeing very few buyers on Sunday.

https://thewire.in/rights/srinagar-kashmir-curfew-restrictions-eid

 

[Member 60376]

@digitalnirvana would probably accuse the guy of wumming.

No not him. You.

 

[MJJ]

“We are caged here and our life has been made hell,” Ms Qadri said, inside a shuttered jewellery shop, where she anxiously examined a bridal necklace commissioned for the upcoming occasion. “This is wrong. This is so, so wrong.”

But many Kashmiris scoff at this. Prior to the constitutional changes, New Delhi ordered all the estimated 20,000 Indian and foreign visitors in Kashmir to leave on the pretext of an impending terror attack, threatening what locals say was the strongest summer tourist season in six years. “The money we make in just four months of the tourist season [from May to August] helps us get through the harsh winter months when life comes to a halt,” said a 65-year boat-owner on the picturesque Dal Lake, a popular tourist destination. “It is clear Modi wants Kashmir, not Kashmiri people.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

A minister in Mr Khan’s cabinet said his tweets were designed to pre-empt political opponents. Mr Khan faces “big challenge of having to answer to domestic opinion in our country,” the minister said. “Many Pakistanis want to know: What is their government going to do about Kashmir?”
But Mr Khan faces a delicate balancing act as he seeks to strengthen international ties. He is trying to mend relations with US President Donald Trump by brokering US-Taliban peace talks in Afghanistan, implement a $6bn IMF bailout and faces a crucial test in October when the Financial Action Task Force will decide whether to blacklist Pakistan for allegedly financing terrorism.

Mr Khan has ruled out military action, but a foreign ministry official in Islamabad said Pakistan expects that conditions in the region will deteriorate and potentially turn violent. “Our reading is that it’s likely to become worse,” the official said.

"Pakistan Army firmly stands by the Kashmiris in their just struggle to the very end. We are prepared and shall go to any extent to fulfil our obligations...," Gen Bajwa told the army commanders.

Cue another potential Army vs Democracy tussle in Pakistan. Democracy in Pakistan is more unstable than a elephant on a three legged stool.

"Prepared to go to any extent"

 

[Patrick08]

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Even the BBC are not safe from allegations of bias and false reporting.

Who the eff is BBC when their are 900 plus news agencies working in the valley and majority of it are reporting complete contrast of the pathetic agenda driven news BBC is reporting by paying freelance Kashmiri journalists and photographers like Aamir peerzada, zubair sofi trained with notorious aljazeera and ndtv for taking a delusional anti govt stand in all of their reporting..

 

[Patrick08]

It’s very surprising that Imran Khan has all those pro taliban quotes and yet decides to take the moral high ground. At least it helps him distract the country and the world what crappy education systems they have in place I suppose

Trying to garner support of china in UN quoting redundant UN resolutions when even china doesn't care UN resolutions on South china sea.

 

[MJJ]

Who the eff is BBC when their are 900 plus news agencies working in the valley and majority of it are reporting complete contrast of the pathetic agenda driven news BBC is reporting by paying freelance Kashmiri journalists and photographers like Aamir peerzada, zubair sofi trained with notorious aljazeera and ndtv for taking a delusional anti govt stand in all of their reporting..

People in india are literally being arrested for not toeing the government line. Yeah let's trust them more than bbc.

Also, I thought you would avoid this thread for a while after that article you shared.

The outcome of this is not to the liking of many people of our country. It's important that the voices of all these people are heard. It's only by raising our voice that we can assure in the long run idea of India, that is something which is very sacred to us and that must prevail,” Dr Singh said. He was speaking on the sidelines of a memorial meet for former Union Minister S Jaipal Reddy.

Manmohan Singh having a lot more class and akal than most posters here who are going full bakht.