Kashmir

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I like how it is so hard for you to believe that some people can just care about kashmiris and human rights violations without treating it like a sporting rivalry.

I guess that comes from seeing a group of people like animals for half a century.

It just is ironic when people claim to be caring about human rights violations, when their own govt has been feeding the fire. Step one if you really care would be to acknowledge Pakistan's role in the mess. As long as you keep painting yourself as holier than thou, it's fair to be sceptical about agenda posting.

The idea of India as a secular democracy with enshrined constitutional principles is anathema to the Hindu nationalists whose ideological parents looked up to the Nazis for the inspiration of a pure nation.

Hindu nationalists haven't been in power constantly from 1947.

It takes a fair bit of wordplay to bring about unrelated issues into a cohesive post, kudos for that. It's not like RSS was behind the mess in Kashmir till now. For example, SC Bose met with Hitler to seek support against British. Does that make all freedom fighters neo-Nazis?

RSS has ties to Nazis > All BJP are RSS fanatics > So all BJP supporters are Nazi's at heart > BJP runs India...So.... It's a masterpiece of misinformation campaign!

 

[MJJ]

Yes they are. I’ve mentioned that before when I said I don’t agree with the way things are being handled around there, which as far as I’m aware is being echoed by most of the Indian posters here.

What about the second part to my earlier post?

So if you believe the news is correct, what does it matter who posts it?
What about my past actions suggest otherwise?

 

[MJJ]

It just is ironic when people claim to be caring about human rights violations, when their own govt has been feeding the fire. Step one if you really care would be to acknowledge Pakistan's role in the mess. As long as you keep painting yourself as holier than thou, it's fair to be sceptical about agenda posting.



It takes a fair bit of wordplay to bring about unrelated issues into a cohesive post, kudos for that. It's not like RSS was behind the mess in Kashmir till now. For example, SC Bose met with Hitler to seek support against British. Does that make all freedom fighters neo-Nazis?

RSS has ties to Nazis > All BJP are RSS fanatics > So all BJP supporters are Nazi's at heart > BJP runs India...So.... It's a masterpiece of misinformation campaign!

Pillow, I didn't write the article.

It's so weird how pakistan has only been able to destabilise kashmir, not the rest of india. You just need to use your brains a little to see how stupid its pakistan fault sounds. Why is azad kashmir so much better?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

It's so weird how pakistan has only been able to destabilise kashmir, not the rest of india. You just need to use your brains a little to see how stupid its pakistan fault sounds. Why is azad kashmir so much better?

Never said that. Most Indian's acknowledge Army's role in the mess. I've yet to see a single post from one of the Pakistani's about their Govt/ISI's role in the mess. Go ahead, deny and claim you're holier than thou.

Is Azad Kashmir so much better? Do you have free elections with open voice of people? Azad Kashmiris are granted full rights and freedom of speech?

 

[MJJ]

Never said that. Most Indian's acknowledge Army's role in the mess. I've yet to see a single post for onle of the Pakistani's about thir Govt/ISI's role in the mess. Go ahead, denay and claim you're holier than thou.

Is Azad Kashmir so much better? Do you have free elections with open voice of people? Azad Kashmiris are granted full rights and freedom of speech?

are you seriously asking if azad Kashmir is so much better than a state where people regularly die? The kids are being kidnapped? They cant even celebrate eid?

If pakistan is responsible for destabilising kashmir, why are they failing to do the same with the rest of india? It's a simple question.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

are you seriously asking if azad Kashmir is so much better than a state where people regularly die? The kids are being kidnapped? They cant even celebrate eid?

Yes. If you can open your eyes past two weeks and consider any reasonable time frame to make a decision.

If pakistan is responsible for destabilising kashmir, why are they failing to do the same with the rest of india? It's a simple question.

You lack the capability, not the intent.

 

[2mufc0]

Never said that. Most Indian's acknowledge Army's role in the mess. I've yet to see a single post from one of the Pakistani's about their Govt/ISI's role in the mess. Go ahead, deny and claim you're holier than thou.

Is Azad Kashmir so much better? Do you have free elections with open voice of people? Azad Kashmiris are granted full rights and freedom of speech?

Azad Kashmir isn't perfect and has unfair restrictions too but it's in a much better state than the other side, I don't see how this can be disputed. My parents and sister are travelling around there at this very moment without any issues, which says a lot.

 

[MJJ]

Yes. If you can open your eyes past two weeks and consider any reasonable time frame to make a decision.



You lack the capability, not the intent.

Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society posits a figure of 70,000deaths, most of them civilians killed by Indian forces.

But I suppose as long as they are muslims, they don't matter to you. Find me one area in pakistan with that number of deaths and thay too by Pakistani forces? Seriously, stop justifying Kashmir atrocities by going but pakistan, but azad kashmir, but balochistan, but uighars. It's disgusting what modi is doing and even more disgusting that you people are justifying it.

If we lack the capability, how did we manage it in kashmir?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

My parents and sister are travelling around there at this very moment without any issues, same can't be said for the Indian side.

Again, you are making a decision based on past 2 weeks which are probably worst in recent memory. Most of my extended family have been visiting Kashmir past year. I myself had plans to visit next year, some of my college friends were planning on doing a bike trip there which obviously won't happen now.

Seriously, stop justifying Kashmir atrocities.
t's disgusting what modi is doing and even more disgusting that you people are justifying it.

Find one post where I have justified or denied the events there.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

And still I don't get even an acknowledgement of Pak's role in the mess.

Just come out and say Pak had no role in Kashmir and everything is on Indian Army. Put it out clearly here.

 

[MJJ]

Again, you are making a decision based on past 2 weeks which are probably worst in recent memory. Most of my extended family have been visiting Kashmir past year. I myself had plans to visit next year, some of my college friends were planning on doing a bike trip there which obviously won't happen now.



Find one post where I have justified or denied the events there.

All of your posts here are doing just that while hiding behind the facade of " I don't agree with the method but it needed to be done". Like I said its equivalent to the "thought and prayer" brigade who then go on to give alternate reasons like video game, etc

Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society posits a figure of 70,000deaths, most of them civilians killed by Indian forces.

But I suppose as long as they are muslims, they don't matter to you. Find me one area in pakistan with that number of deaths and thay too by Pakistani forces? Seriously, stop justifying Kashmir atrocities by going but pakistan, but azad kashmir, but balochistan, but uighars. It's disgusting what modi is doing and even more disgusting that you people are justifying it.

If we lack the capability, how did we manage it in kashmir?

You missed my questions there.

 

[2mufc0]

Again, you are making a decision based on past 2 weeks which are probably worst in recent memory. Most of my extended family have been visiting Kashmir past year. I myself had plans to visit next year, some of my college friends were planning on doing a bike trip there which obviously won't happen now.



Find one post where I have justified or denied the events there.

But a lot of you have been denying that anything is going on in Indian Kashmir right now, calling it fake news, Pakistani propaganda and journalists being bought for 500 dollars.

 

[2mufc0]

And still I don't get even an acknowledgement of Pak's role in the mess.

Just come out and say Pak had no role in Kashmir and everything is on Indian Army. Put it out clearly here.

Pakistan has had little to do with the current situation and what is happening there now.

If you want to discuss the history then yes both sides have been meddling with each other. Don't think anyone has denied that?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

But a lot of you have been denying that anything is going on in Indian Kashmir right now, calling it fake news, Pakistani propaganda and journalists being bought for 500 dollars.

I don't know who the "lot of us" are honestly. Going by posting in this thread, I can see that most Indians acknowledge the events.

 

[2mufc0]

Again, you are making a decision based on past 2 weeks which are probably worst in recent memory. Most of my extended family have been visiting Kashmir past year. I myself had plans to visit next year, some of my college friends were planning on doing a bike trip there which obviously won't happen now.

Go to Azad Kashmir then

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Pakistan has had little to do with the current situation and what is happening there now.

If you want to discuss the history then yes both sides have been meddling with each other. Don't think anyone has denied that?

Fair point. MJJ has been dancing around this for a looong time now.

All of your posts here are doing just that while hiding behind the facade of " I don't agree with the method but it needed to be done".

Revoking 370 needed to be done. Curfew was a necessary evil. Anything more like kidnapping kids etc are outright evil and has no support from anyone in India.

 

[AshRK]

There's a supposedly investor summit there at 12-14th October now. Ambani has promised investment in that area. I hope it gets economic prosperity. The potential is huge

With all the crap in this thread, this has gone unnoticed. Hopefully Ambani's are true to their word and we finally see some development in Kashmir. Maybe in 6 to 12 months we can judge whether this move by Modi Govt was good or not. I welcome the decision but it should have been done in a better way but then again we do not know what's actually happening in Kashmir, so maybe we should give the government a benefit of doubt for now.

 

[MJJ]

Go to Azad Kashmir then

I wouldn't advise that to him. Indians have gone a bit crazy.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Banning mika Singh cos he performed in pakistan.

 

[MJJ]

With all the crap in this thread, this has gone unnoticed. Hopefully Ambani's are true to their word and we finally see some development in Kashmir. Maybe in 6 to 12 months we can judge whether this move by Modi Govt was good or not. I welcome the decision but it should have been done in a better way but then again we do not know what's actually happening in Kashmir, so maybe we should give the government a benefit of doubt for now.

I don't know who the "lot of us" are honestly. Going by posting in this thread, I can see that most Indians acknowledge the events.

You still need to know? Just read the above post by ash.

Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society posits a figure of 70,000deaths, most of them civilians killed by Indian forces.

But I suppose as long as they are muslims, they don't matter to you. Find me one area in pakistan with that number of deaths and thay too by Pakistani forces? Seriously, stop justifying Kashmir atrocities by going but pakistan, but azad kashmir, but balochistan, but uighars. It's disgusting what modi is doing and even more disgusting that you people are justifying it.

If we lack the capability, how did we manage it in kashmir?

Still waiting for a response pillow.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Go to Azad Kashmir then

Tbh, I've always coveted that. If I thought I could safely visit Gigit-Baltistan, I'd definitely do so. As a nature/travel fan, it's sad that people can't access the beauty of nature.

 

[2mufc0]

Tbh, I've always coveted that. If I thought I could safely visit Gigit-Baltistan, I'd definitely do so. As a nature/travel fan, it's sad that people can't access the beauty of nature.

Hopefully one day, it's a beautiful place, don't think many places beat it for natural beauty.

But more commercialisation is not always a good thing for these types of places.

 

[ThatsGreat]

With all the crap in this thread, this has gone unnoticed. Hopefully Ambani's are true to their word and we finally see some development in Kashmir. Maybe in 6 to 12 months we can judge whether this move by Modi Govt was good or not. I welcome the decision but it should have been done in a better way but then again we do not know what's actually happening in Kashmir, so maybe we should give the government a benefit of doubt for now.

I fully support the removal of article 370, but I think the economic development fig leaf is bs. I mean J&K scores higher in most development indicators than UP/Bihar/Jharkhand/Chhatisgarh/Orissa. Why would we want to bloody develop J&K before giving the other states their due attention. Will the message be that if you want development, then you have to have an insurgency? Lets tell Ambani to invest in the mainland, before he goes running to Kashmir.

 

[MJJ]

Fair point. MJJ has been dancing around this for a looong time now.



Revoking 370 needed to be done. Curfew was a necessary evil. Anything more like kidnapping kids etc are outright evil and has no support from anyone in India.

"Anyone in india". Who do you think is doing the kidnapping if not indians?

 

[Bestie07]

I fully support the removal of article 370, but I think the economic development fig leaf is bs. I mean J&K scores higher in most development indicators than UP/Bihar/Jharkhand/Chhatisgarh/Orissa. Why would we want to bloody develop J&K before giving the other states their due attention. Will the message be that if you want development, then you have to have an insurgency? Lets tell Ambani to invest in the mainland, before he goes running to Kashmir.

The government spends about 20-25 times more per person in Kashmir than it does in UP which is probably the reason behind the high scores.

 

[AshRK]

I fully support the removal of article 370, but I think the economic development fig leaf is bs. I mean J&K scores higher in most development indicators than UP/Bihar/Jharkhand/Chhatisgarh/Orissa. Why would we want to bloody develop J&K before giving the other states their due attention. Will the message be that if you want development, then you have to have an insurgency? Lets tell Ambani to invest in the mainland, before he goes running to Kashmir.

Maybe just maybe Kashmir has higher ceiling than the states you mentioned. It is certainly an untapped state/UT. Again it all might be one bs and the situation may stay the same or become worse but that only time can tell. But yes removing of Article 370 was much needed.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Who do you think is doing the kidnapping if not indians?

Seriously? If you're point is that all Indians support kidnapping, then it's futile to continue this argument as it's degrading to the delusional now.

 

[prath92]

So if you believe the news is correct, what does it matter who posts it?
What about my past actions suggest otherwise?

Posting the news has no issues from anywhere. Contrary to what you and others seem to believe very few believe news here blindly. Very few percentage of people actually believe the likes of republic news (run by Arnab)

But you definitely have to agree that Pakistan championing human rights or any other moral standards will always be given very less importance. The world will always see Pakistan as a worse violator of human rights than India.

 

[MJJ]

Seriously? If you're point is that all Indians support kidnapping, then it's futile to continue this argument as it's degrading to the delusional now.

no, your point is no one in india is supporting it. I never made an estimate on how many Indians are supporting it or not. And yes, the original point was delusional.

 

[MJJ]

Posting the news has no issues from anywhere. Contrary to what you and others seem to believe very few believe news here blindly. Very few percentage of people actually believe the likes of republic news (run by Arnab)

But you definitely have to agree that Pakistan championing human rights or any other moral standards will always be given very less importance. The world will always see Pakistan as a worse violator of human rights than India.

And yet you guys have been complaining non stop for days about pakistani posters posting news here. Maybe just maybe stop speaking for all indians? You guys love making statements and then making a straw hat. See edgar going no indian supports kidnapping to "are you saying all indian support kidnapping". There is a middle ground.

As for the rest, for now yeah. Let's see how it is by the end of modis reign and the continued rise of RSS

 

[anant]

The idea of India as a secular democracy with enshrined constitutional principles is anathema to the Hindu nationalists whose ideological parents looked up to the Nazis for the inspiration of a pure nation.

Hindu nationalists haven't been in power constantly from 1947.

As for the rest its historical bs which you are using to justify the human rights violation. If you want to go even further back nehru promised the people a vote. All of which doesn't matter. Kashmiris in pakistan are happy whereas in india they arent even allowed to use a phone, internet or stay outdoors. Oh all thay when their children arent being kidnapped.

I would love to see if you would be justifying it by saying there was no resolution in sight so something had to be done if the same was done in your home town.

.
Hindu Nationalists been in power constantly since 1947. I mean wtf are you on! Considering India has been under INC for much of the past 72 years, the statement is rubbish. You can accuse them of a thousand things but being anti-minority is not one of them.
Nehru was literally as liberal and secular as they come, Indira Gandhi was married to a Parsi, Rajiv Gandhi (her son) is blamed for much of the problem why Hindus felt so alienated (which BJP took advantage of, although I don't agree with that while we're at it), then you had VP Singh as the PM who had Mufti Mohammad Syed as his Home minister and we've also had 10 years under Manmohan Singh who's a Sikh.
Oh and before I forget, we've also had Zakir Hussain, Fakhruddin Ali, Zail Singh, APJ Abdul Kalam (who was BJP candidate in 2002 and they also wanted him as president in 2012) as our presidents!
Unless of course you don't understand the difference between the Government of India and Union of India which is a different matter altogether.

What bs are you talking about. How about you tell me the % population of Muslims in Pakistan in 1947 and now? Nehru did not promise a vote. All he promised was he'd agree with the UN resolution and like I said, since you did not adhere to the 1st point the other points become obsolete.

Again, I accept the way BJP have done this is wrong and people shouldn't be in this state for this long and you have right to rant about that, but then you come up with this bs that India hates it's minorities when that's definitely not the case

 

[MJJ]

.
Hindu Nationalists been in power constantly since 1947. I mean wtf are you on! Considering India has been under INC for much of the past 72 years, the statement is rubbish. You can accuse them of a thousand things but being anti-minority is not one of them.
Nehru was literally as liberal and secular as they come, Indira Gandhi was married to a Parsi, Rajiv Gandhi (her son) is blamed for much of the problem why Hindus felt so alienated (which BJP took advantage of, although I don't agree with that while we're at it), then you had VP Singh as the PM who had Mufti Mohammad Syed as his Home minister and we've also had 10 years under Manmohan Singh who's a Sikh.
Oh and before I forget, we've also had Zakir Hussain, Fakhruddin Ali, Zail Singh, APJ Abdul Kalam (who was BJP candidate in 2002 and they also wanted him as president in 2012) as our presidents!
Unless of course you don't understand the difference between the Government of India and Union of India which is a different matter altogether.

What bs are you talking about. How about you tell me the % population of Muslims in Pakistan in 1947 and now? Nehru did not promise a vote. All he promised was he'd agree with the UN resolution and like I said, since you did not adhere to the 1st point the other points become obsolete.

Again, I accept the way BJP have done this is wrong and people shouldn't be in this state for this long and you have right to rant about that, but then you come up with this bs that India hates it's minorities when that's definitely not the case

Anant re-read my post, feel some embrassement and next time think before you type.

 

[prath92]

And yet you guys have been complaining non stop for days about pakistani posters posting news here. Maybe just maybe stop speaking for all indians? You guys love making statements and then making a straw hat. See edgar going no indian supports kidnapping to "are you saying all indian support kidnapping". There is a middle ground.

As for the rest, for now yeah. Let's see how it is by the end of modis reign and the continued rise of RSS

Stop being pedantic mate. So you can never say anything about any country going by that logic? I can only surmise from the general feeling I get from living in the country. It’s easy to generalise a country’s feelings. Everyone else is just seeing the irony that Pakistani posters are feeling outraged at other countries while their country has done stuff that’s far worse.

you yourself said to someone above that ‘because the victims are Muslims, you wouldn’t care’. Maybe that’s the reaction you guys have when people from the other religions suffer in Pakistan but generally in India no one has any less sympathies just because the person who is suffering is of a different religion. That’s a very bigoted thought for you to have different levels of sympathies just because the person is of a different religion but I suppose that’s what happens when you aren’t living in a secular country

It’s very unlikely for that last thing to happen. You overestimate RSS and underestimate your own country.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

you yourself said to someone above that ‘because the victims are Muslims, you wouldn’t care’. Maybe that’s the reaction you guys have when people from the other religions suffer in Pakistan but generally in India no one has any less sympathies just because the person who is suffering is of a different religion. That’s a very bigoted thought for you to have different levels of sympathies just because the person is of a different religion but I suppose that’s what happens when you aren’t living in a secular country

It’s very unlikely for that last thing to happen. You overestimate RSS and underestimate your own country.

I realise it was published over a decade ago but what did you make of the report of the Sachar Committee?

 

[AshRK]

Stop being pedantic mate. So you can never say anything about any country going by that logic? I can only surmise from the general feeling I get from living in the country. It’s easy to generalise a country’s feelings. Everyone else is just seeing the irony that Pakistani posters are feeling outraged at other countries while their country has done stuff that’s far worse.

you yourself said to someone above that ‘because the victims are Muslims, you wouldn’t care’. Maybe that’s the reaction you guys have when people from the other religions suffer in Pakistan but generally in India no one has any less sympathies just because the person who is suffering is of a different religion. That’s a very bigoted thought for you to have different levels of sympathies just because the person is of a different religion but I suppose that’s what happens when you aren’t living in a secular country

It’s very unlikely for that last thing to happen. You overestimate RSS and underestimate your own country.

Not just the posters but even Imran Khan talking about India in his independence day speech then doing the twitter drama of calling 15thAug Blackday and having a black dp, it all screams fakeness. Where were they when Syria was getting destroyed, or when Palestine people were getting killed or let alone when innocent Pak citizen getting killed every year. @Sanche7 made a really good point the other day all these sudden humanitarian cause looks bs and they are just using this as an opportunity to throw shite at India. I bet if it was vice versa and something like this had happened in Pak these posters would just go full crazy defending their govt. Atleast majority Indian posters here have admitted that the way it has been implemented is not correct unlike some hypocrites here.

 

[anant]

Anant re-read my post, feel some embrassement and next time think before you type.

Edited the 1st part out as I had misread that. Apart from that, literally everything is still valid

 

[2cents]

Find me one area in pakistan with that number of deaths and thay too by Pakistani forces?

According to Dawn, around 40,000 Pakistanis - military and civilian - lost their lives in the war in Waziristan and adjacent areas between 2001 and 2011. This does not include the thousands of foreign militants who have also likely died there. It doesn’t state who exactly is responsible for those deaths. So not quite the same death toll as Kashmir, but a shorter period of time. Also, Bangladesh was a part of Pakistan until 1971, and I believe the death toll in that war surpasses anything else seen in South Asia since partition.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I realise it was published over a decade ago but what did you make of the report of the Sachar Committee?

Like any other report. Speaks some truths but not the whole picture.

 

[Patrick08]

Atleast majority Indian posters here have admitted that the way it has been implemented is not correct unlike some hypocrites here.

Those very same have zero clue dealing with a proxy war and Fake news warfare Pakistani media and even the president who advising their citizens to launch and openly lie.

 

[milemuncher777]

Family of Greater Kashmir journalist claims Army, CRPF men arrested him, but don’t know why
Irfan Amin, a south Kashmir-based journalist, was picked up from his house Wednesday night and 'bundled into a vehicle'.

https://theprint.in/india/family-of...pf-men-arrested-him-but-dont-know-why/277670/

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Like any other report. Speaks some truths but not the whole picture.

What's the whole picture then? On the face of it that report is pretty devastating.

It found that Muslim Indians were the most impoverished urban minority in India and the second most impoverished overall - on a par with the Scheduled Castes and Tribes. Proportionally, four times more Muslims were found to be living in poverty than the general Hindu population and were far more likely to be intensely impoverished at that. With regards to the government and its institutions it found that they were grossly underrepresented within all state departments and that this under-representation only increased the higher the rank - by far the least representation of any Indian subgroup. Overall the report found that in each and every area of life Muslims were significantly more deprived than their Hindu counterparts.

This doesn't strike me as a set of findings that one would unearth in a country where Muslim and Hindu were treated as equals.