Keir Starmer Labour Leader

[Foxbatt]

Is this on any mainstream media?

 

[nickm]

It's pretty obvious that people who defend supporters of the holocuast as being "of their time" don't have too strong a relationship with common sense.

We defeated your original dumb argument but go ahead, substitute it with an even dumber one.

 

[Shamwow]

We defeated your original dumb argument but go ahead, substitute it with an even dumber one.

Your argument was that everyone was racist in the 30s so it was okay to want to get rid of all the Jews. It's just Nazi apologism, was Hitler okay too because everyone else was an anti-semite?

 

[Dobba]

Man, I'm old enough to remember when the stuff that now needs to end in dismissals from the party were all mad conspiracy theories. Memories.

 

[nickm]

Your argument was that everyone was racist in the 30s so it was okay to want to get rid of all the Jews. It's just Nazi apologism, was Hitler okay too because everyone else was an anti-semite?

My argument was with you calling Rachel Reeves an anti Semite because she celebrated Astor’s anniversary.

 

[Shamwow]

My argument was with you calling Rachel Reeves an anti Semite because she celebrated Astor’s anniversary.

She definitely did something anti-semitic, whether that makes her an actual anti-semite, or just insensitive to anti-semitism as you are is hard to tell without knowing her better. Either way, zero tolerance should be zero tolerance and I don't see why Jews should have to walk past a statue of someone who wanted them all dead and have to tolerate that. It's not like the statue was built in the 30s.

Also another racist in the cabinet:

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So much for zero tolerance on racism. I guess we can go back to business as usual now.

 

[nickm]

She definitely did something anti-semitic, whether that makes her an actual anti-semite, or just insensitive to anti-semitism as you are is hard to tell without knowing her better. Either way, zero tolerance should be zero tolerance and I don't see why Jews should have to walk past a statue of someone who wanted them all dead and have to tolerate that. It's not like the statue was built in the 30s.

Also another racist in the cabinet:

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So much for zero tolerance on racism. I guess we can go back to business as usual now.

If I already didn’t know your approach to debating this was to fling ramped up accusations around, vanish while they get patiently dissected, then pop back in for another go, then I might be inclined to engage with the above.

 

[Shamwow]

If I already didn’t know your approach to debating this was to fling ramped up accusations around, vanish while they get patiently dissected, then pop back in for another go, then I might be inclined to engage with the above.

Translation: if I wasn't okay with this type of racism

 

[sun_tzu]

Your argument was that everyone was racist in the 30s so it was okay to want to get rid of all the Jews. It's just Nazi apologism, was Hitler okay too because everyone else was an anti-semite?

I thought he was a Zionist ccording to Ken Livingstone

 

[Ubik]

She definitely did something anti-semitic, whether that makes her an actual anti-semite, or just insensitive to anti-semitism as you are is hard to tell without knowing her better. Either way, zero tolerance should be zero tolerance and I don't see why Jews should have to walk past a statue of someone who wanted them all dead and have to tolerate that. It's not like the statue was built in the 30s.

Also another racist in the cabinet:

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Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

So much for zero tolerance on racism. I guess we can go back to business as usual now.

I hadn't seen any quotes of her agreeing with the holocaust? I'd agree that if those exist, it's hard to defend the statue.

 

[Shamwow]

I hadn't seen any quotes of her agreeing with the holocaust? I'd agree that if those exist, it's hard to defend the statue.

She wrote that the Nazis were the answer to the global problem of Jews.

 

[Foxbatt]

There is a huge difference in criticising the Israeli government and being an anti Semite.
Anyone who thinks the Nazis had the right idea for the Jews is anti semitic. Corbyn rightly criticised the Israeli government and this leadership should do so too.

 

[MrPooni]

Canvassed for Labour this past election but after reading the leaks from 2017, I've decided to cancel my membership. I'll probably end up voting for them again at one point but feck this basket of snakes for now.

 

[Ubik]

She wrote that the Nazis were the answer to the global problem of Jews.

What's the quote, though? Was this actually after the holocaust?

 

[MrPooni]

There is a huge difference in criticising the Israeli government and being an anti Semite.
Anyone who thinks the Nazis had the right idea for the Jews is anti semitic. Corbyn rightly criticised the Israeli government and this leadership should do so too.

There's literal video evidence of Israeli lobbyists discussing how to weaponise antisemitism to stamp out anti-Zionist policies but no one cares. They even tried to launch similar attacks on Bernie Sanders who could have been the first Jewish president in the history of the US but people still believe this shit. It's insane.

 

[sullydnl]

Astor was an anti-semite and the context of the era she was from doesn't change that. There may have been a lot of horrible people around at the time but that doesn't make her any less horrible herself.

However, the UK (like most countries, I suppose) has a rather selective memory when it comes to its own history. How else would horrendous people like Winston Churchill and Oliver Cromwell be fairly regularly name-checked whenever discussions about the greatest ever Britons arise? As such, I'm not sure why politicians selectively choosing to praise Astor for one aspect of her life (namely female representation in parliament) is much different to any of the other times British politicians selectively praise historical figures while ignoring other awful dimensions of their past.

I mean I'm all for not commemorating a virulent anti-semite like Astor and if you want to stop commemorating any of the other horrible people too then that's fab. But if you condemn current politicians for selectively praising unpleasant British historical figures for very specific positive things they did/represent then I fear you may run short on politicians. As indeed would quite a lot of countries.

 

[ZupZup]

My argument was with you calling Rachel Reeves an anti Semite because she celebrated Astor’s anniversary.

Just out of interest... you call the Reeves situation a smear.

You were critical of Corbyn though for a foreword he wrote in Hobson’s book which was published well over a hundred years ago. If you believe Corbyn was wrong to not bring up any antisemitism in the book when he wrote that foreword... surely you must believe Reeves is wrong for celebrating Astor and not raising the issue of her antisemitism?

 

[Sweet Square]

Crazy if this is true

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[BobbyManc]

That internal report is infuriating to read. It's been known via earlier reports that the anti-Semitism problems were possibly being deliberately exacerbated by factions hostile to Corbyn in the party but to see it so clearly documented is shocking.

 

[Foxbatt]

Didn't Churchill ask why hasn't Gandhi died during the Bengal famine?

 

[Dobba]

No wonder they didn't want this looked at, with the rumours circulating that Emilie Oldknow is set to be appointed General Secretary.

 

[Silva]

the report in full just in case anyone doubted how much we should be lining up behind the centrists

In Chapter 3, the report explores how GLU functioned from 2015 to early 2018, the processes and procedures that existed, and the approach taken in relation to antisemitism complaints at the time. It shows how disciplinary procedures, in so much as they existed, were dysfunctional, slow and flexible to the factional requirements of staff. Despite detailed guidance from Shami Chakarbarti and Jeremy Corbyn on different forms of left-wing antisemitism, GLU failed to develop any guidance or training for staff, and made highly inconsistent, and often poor, decisions on 25 antisemitism complaints throughout this period. GLU also failed to act on the vast majority of antisemitism complaints submitted in this period, with the energy that applied to the “Validation” process of 2016 not being transferred to the process of creating a functioning disciplinary process for all types of complaints. Chapter 3 also examines the role of LOTO in disciplinary processes up to 2018, finding that consultation with LOTO on a range of cases was normal conduct under Ed Miliband, but largely stopped when Jeremy Corbyn became leader, apart from some cases involving high profile individuals. Examining ongoing communications on such matters, and prominent cases such as Ken Livingstone and Jackie Walker, shows how LOTO staff increasingly chased action on antisemitism from GLU and Labour HQ, but were often met with a hostile or obstructive response.

 

[Silva]

The result was seen as a triumph for Jeremy Corbyn, and a rout for the “Blairite” politics of “Progress”, whose candidate acquired just 4.5% of the overall vote. In total, more than 250,000 people voted for Jeremy Corbyn as their “first preference”, including existing Labour members, returning Labour members who had quit over the 2003 invasion of Iraq or Tony Blair’s support for policies like Private Finance Initiatives (PFI), and people entirely new to politics, many of them young. As we shall see, senior figures in Labour HQ did not view these developments positively.

On 15 June 2015, for example, Head of Press and Broadcasting Jo Green called Corbyn “that fecking trot” and suggested to Acting Director of Policy and Political Research Simon Jackson that “anyone who nominates corbyn 'to widen the debate' deserves to be taken out and shot”. Jackson agreed: “quite. if the left can't get on the ballot it shows they're moribund… putting them on there only validates the views”

On 20 July 2015, Head of Political Strategy Greg Cook described a Labour MP as being “such a Trot now”, to which Head of Press and Broadcasting Jo Green responded “yep. like most of the PLP it seems”.23 Green said to Jackson that Andy Burnham “just panders to what members want. he'll be a total disaster” - “the PLP is a joke now .. full of people unable and unwilling to be sensible”.24 On 3 August 2015, Greg Cook then commented that Kate Hoey “is better than Corbyn, Abbott, Burnham, Nandy, Lewis and about 150 others”.

fecking kate hoey these people are mental

 

[Silva]

On 13 August 2015, as it became clear that Jeremy Corbyn might win the Labour leadership election,Jo Green and Stolliday, was moving into GLU soon, discussed delaying or cancelling the election, by claiming insufficient resources to check new members, or by all the other candidates pulling out. Stolliday considered this a “great idea”:

On 15 September, after the visit, Dan Hogan, then a Policy Communications Officer but from late 2016 to mid-2018 an Investigations Officer in GLU, and Amy Fowler from Fundraising, discussed Corbyn’s visit. Hogan said that a staff member who “whooped” Corbyn’s speech “should be shot”. Fowler noted how all the staff in Labour HQ “kind of hate [Corbyn]”, and she wasn’t sure how Corbyn could address that “massive elephant in the room… without making me hate this more”


Amy Fowler 16:40: How did you think it went when he was in earlier? Stevie P whooped and is now dead to Carol
Dan Hogan 16:42: people were polite. Stevie P should be shot. Jez's speech was a total crock of shit

 

[Silva]

Stolliday also used mental health slurs about LOTO Executive Director of Communications Seumas Milne, describing him as a “total mentalist” and “nutter” who he had previously told to “cock off”.76 Head of Policy Simon Jackson, similarly, referred to new Labour members who supported Jeremy Corbyn as “nutters” who had “Invaded” the Party, while Head of Policy Development Anouska Gregorek joked about them getting “F U JC” - “feck you Jeremy Corbyn” - tattoed on their foreheads.77 On 10 April 2017, the Manager of Iain McNicol’s office also used a mental health slur to mock people who were joining the Party at the time:

10/04/2017, 11:36 - Simon Mills: Dropped 634 paying members last week. 392 joined. Who are these people...?
10/04/2017, 11:37 - Tracey Allen: Mentalists?

it's very cool to have so many adults in the room

 

[Silva]

Senior staff including Emilie Oldknow, Julie Lawrence and Tracey Allen shared abusive messages regarding LOTO chief of staff Karie Murphy. Oldknow and other staff often called Murphy “Medusa”, Julie Lawrence called her “crazy” and said her face “would make a good dartboard” and Patrick Henegan called her a “bitch face cow”:

these ones are at least almost funny tbf, ngl

 

[Kentonio]

She wrote that the Nazis were the answer to the global problem of Jews.

What was the date of the letter, and what exactly did she say please?

 

[Silva]

What was the date of the letter, and what exactly did she say please?

does it have to be written in the middle of an extermination camp as well for it to count?

 

[Kentonio]

does it have to be written in the middle of an extermination camp as well for it to count?

To count as evidence of support for the holocaust I think it’s fairly reasonable to ask whether the person actually knew the holocaust was happening.

I’m also genuinely interested because I can’t find her letter and it’s annoying me having to rely on second hand accounts.

 

[Silva]

As discussed in Section 3.2, the Labour Party has identified that in 2017 there were at least 170 Labour members reported to GLU for antisemitism with clear evidence of their membership, who were not acted against. (This does not include numerous complaints not sent up to GLU from Regions, or many other complaints where members were less clearly identifiable.) Hogan was then one of two Disputes officers, employed by the party to deal with these complaints. The Governance and Legal Unit’s lack of action on complaints is detailed later. Comparing this to the extensive work on so-called “Trot busting” suggests that staff were far less motivated to tackle complaints, including antisemitism and other abuse, than they were to suspend members because of their left-wing political views. In this period, staff “Trot busting” included flagging people simply for having “liked” a Facebook page, or having retweeted the Green Party on an issue they agreed with. On 12 August 2015, NEC member Alice Perry expressed her concern about some of the people staff had flagged:

feck me this report is long and just doesn't stop hammering home how little centrists care about antisemitism

 

[Silva]

On 17 May 2016, Campaigns Analyst Josh Carrington, seeing a press officer talking openly of “smashing Trots” and “mad Trots”, commented that a newer colleague was going through the same process he had in “Head Office”, where you: slowly realise that everyone, everyone else is much more right-wing and considers anyone left of brown to be a trot.151

Numerous staff privately messaged each other that Joshua Carrington himself was “a trot”, reminding each other to be careful of what they said in his presence.

Joshua Carrington himself took part in the 2015 “Trot hunt”, referred to leftwing staff associated with LOTO during the 2017 general election as “fecking Trots” and enjoyed “[making] fun of the leadership” to its supporters.153 He appears not to have been a supporter of Liz Kendall, however.154 This may have been why other staff referred to him as a “Trot”.

is Chris Morris writing this?

 

[Silva]

I’m also genuinely interested because I can’t find her letter and it’s annoying me having to rely on second hand accounts.

me too

 

[Sweet Square]

“The right of the labour movement, to be honest, has no ideas of any compelling quality, except the instinct for short-term political survival. It would not know an ideological struggle if it stumbled across one in the dark. The only ‘struggle’ it engages in with any trace of conviction is the one against the left' - Stuart Hall, The Hard Road to Renewal: Thatcherism and the Crisis of the Left 1988.

 

[Silva]

Staff were also considering “go slow” tactics, making the election more difficult to win for Corbyn’s team and the Labour Party as a whole. On 21 April 2017, Labour staff joked about “working hard or hardly working”,192 for example, and on 1 May 2017, Labour HQ press staff, including Head of Press Neil Fleming, established a chat to “communicate through… so we arent on our phones all the time” - “And yes, tap tap tapping away will make us look v busy”.193 Director of Policy and Research, Simon Jackson, had previously suggested to Anouska Gregorek, Head of Policy Development, that he would not vote for Labour in a general election when led by Jeremy Corbyn.

i wonder why all the centrists who definitely care about antisemitism are just flat out ignoring this

 

[Synco]

feck me this report is long and just doesn't stop hammering home how little centrists care about antisemitism

If this report proves to be legit, it seems to show exactly that for the responsible parts of the Labour party.

But this sentence coming from you is still a big fecking joke.

 

[Sweet Square]

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[Silva]

If this report proves to be legit, it seems to show exactly that for the responsible parts of the Labour party.

But this sentence coming from you is still a big fecking joke.

i have nothing against you dude, i said in the jeremy thread i believed you were arguing in good faith about labours serious antisemitism problem whereas the likes of @sun_tzu and @nickm were not, if you're going to be angry at anyone be angry at those using your people as a chess piece

 

[Dobba]

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[Synco]

i have nothing against you dude, i said in the jeremy thread i believed you were arguing in good faith about labours serious antisemitism problem whereas the likes of @sun_tzu and @nickm were not, if you're going to be angry at anyone be angry at those using your people as a chess piece

I'm not Jewish, first of all.

But the finger you point so gleefully at others (and not always wrongly) points right back at you. In terms of choosing to care/not care about antisemitism under strictly sectarian criteria. This selective and instrumental attitude is one of the main problems in all of this, and it can certainly be found across the political spectrum.

 

[Smores]

feck me this report is long and just doesn't stop hammering home how little centrists care about antisemitism

Nothing we didn't already know.

I can't even get worked up about this shit to be honest. Labour is in a new chapter now and i can only hope and focus on it being successful.

I do not for one second expect any reflection from the centrists and I'm certain like Brexiteers they'll pull the "it's done now we just have to move on" card.