Keir Starmer Labour Leader

[ZupZup]

But as McDonnell and Corbyn were lifelong Brexiters they didn't want that, they wanted Brexit. They even tried to stifle debate on a second referendum in the Labour conference. I do think that with different Labour leadership Brexit might have been avoided, not for certain but there would have been a chance.

But no, according to some people here Corbyn wasn't a Brexiter and nothing was his fault even though he was leader, the blame is all Starmer's

I don’t think it’s because they were Brexiteer’s at all. I don’t think McDonnell and Corbyn felt overly strongly one way or the other. Getting the opportunity to enact socialist policy was clearly their main priority and Brexit was an annoying distraction.

It’s likely they wanted to stifle Brexit debate because they quite rightly, knew a remain position would be electoral suicide. Unfortunately, being the democrats that they are, they let the party decide on a disastrous Brexit position which was very costly.

How does a different Labour leader avoid Brexit? The number of constituencies in favour of leave made it impossible for a party with a remain or ‘people’s vote’ policy to win in a general election.

 

[MoskvaRed]

I don’t think it’s because they were Brexiteer’s at all. I don’t think McDonnell and Corbyn felt overly strongly one way or the other. Getting the opportunity to enact socialist policy was clearly their main priority and Brexit was an annoying distraction.

It’s likely they wanted to stifle Brexit debate because they quite rightly, knew a remain position would be electoral suicide. Unfortunately, being the democrats that they are, they let the party decide on a disastrous Brexit position which was very costly.

How does a different Labour leader avoid Brexit? The number of constituencies in favour of leave made it impossible for a party with a remain or ‘people’s vote’ policy to win in a general election.

You’re right that, by 2019, the make up of rural/small town vs urban constituencies meant that it was was extremely difficult to build a remain majority. I do believe though that a more committed Labour leadership could have swung the vote back in 2016, while acknowledging of course that the blame for the whole mess lies firmly with the Conservative Party rather than the shortcomings of Corbyn or the Lib Dems or whoever.

 

[Dobba]

How does a different Labour leader avoid Brexit? The number of constituencies in favour of leave made it impossible for a party with a remain or ‘people’s vote’ policy to win in a general election.

You find whoever announced that they were the party of remain and remove them from anything resembling power for the complete stupidity of making such a statement.

Or you do what Labour did and make them leader.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Don't agree sorry. Corbyn should simply have done what Wilson did in '75, recognised the party was split, and allowed his MPs a free vote on EU matters. But as McDonnell and Corbyn were lifelong Brexiters they didn't want that, they wanted Brexit. They even tried to stifle debate on a second referendum in the Labour conference. I do think that with different Labour leadership Brexit might have been avoided, not for certain but there would have been a chance.

But no, according to some people here Corbyn wasn't a Brexiter and nothing was his fault even though he was leader, the blame is all Starmer's. To be fair Starmer was at blame for remaining in Corbyn's cabinet, that seems cowardly to me, but most politicians want as much power as they can get I suppose.

I mean, blaming Labour for Tory Brexit is in itself a nonsensical review of what happened.

But, Starmer was the shadow Brexit secretary wasn't he? But he escapes your blame. That's some mental gymnastics right there.

 

[Smores]

That is pretty much my view as well.
Despite lots of criticism, I think that his strategy has been successful. He is increasingly been seen as a safe pair of hands.

Just not true though in any of the polling. He's continued to poll really badly thankfully Boris is seen as much worse.

 

[711]

I mean, blaming Labour for Tory Brexit is in itself a nonsensical review of what happened.

But, Starmer was the shadow Brexit secretary wasn't he? But he escapes your blame. That's some mental gymnastics right there.

Where did I say he escapes blame? Read slower.

 

[Lentwood]

Don't agree sorry. Corbyn should simply have done what Wilson did in '75, recognised the party was split, and allowed his MPs a free vote on EU matters. But as McDonnell and Corbyn were lifelong Brexiters they didn't want that, they wanted Brexit. They even tried to stifle debate on a second referendum in the Labour conference. I do think that with different Labour leadership Brexit might have been avoided, not for certain but there would have been a chance.

But no, according to some people here Corbyn wasn't a Brexiter and nothing was his fault even though he was leader, the blame is all Starmer's. To be fair Starmer was at blame for remaining in Corbyn's cabinet, that seems cowardly to me, but most politicians want as much power as they can get I suppose.

Yeah but you must see why that made life impossible. The two most infleuntial figures in the Labour Party were Brexiters, the MPs were fairly evenly split (at least to begin with), Labour Party voters were perhaps 60/40 in favour of Remain. We know the electorate struggles with complexity and non-binary arguments. When you have the Conservatives banging on about the "will of the people" and "oven ready deals", Labour's more nuanced position was always going to get steamrollered.

 

[711]

Yeah but you must see why that made life impossible. The two most infleuntial figures in the Labour Party were Brexiters, the MPs were fairly evenly split (at least to begin with), Labour Party voters were perhaps 60/40 in favour of Remain. We know the electorate struggles with complexity and non-binary arguments. When you have the Conservatives banging on about the "will of the people" and "oven ready deals", Labour's more nuanced position was always going to get steamrollered.

Nuanced

Yeah, I agree with all the rest, Labour were in a difficult position, I'm just saying that their leadership made it, and any hope of avoiding Brexit, worse. What we needed was Harold Wilson, and you don't hear about him very often nowadays!

 

[TwoSheds]

Nuanced

Yeah, I agree with all the rest, Labour were in a difficult position, I'm just saying that their leadership made it, and any hope of avoiding Brexit, worse. What we needed was Harold Wilson, and you don't hear about him very often nowadays!

I'm sorry but Starmer's current "hands off, I'm not taking a" position is only going ok-ish for him because Brexit is "done" and because nobody gives a shit about him. If Corbyn had tried that the media, opposition
and snakes in his own party would have labelled him all sorts because they knew he actually wanted to do things differently.

 

[711]

I'm sorry but Starmer's current "hands off, I'm not taking a" position is only going ok-ish for him because Brexit is "done" and because nobody gives a shit about him. If Corbyn had tried that the media, opposition
and snakes in his own party would have labelled him all sorts because they knew he actually wanted to do things differently.

I've not really commented on Starmer, people seem to reading things I haven't said, but for the record I agree with you about it being done and about the media's treatment of Corbyn.

I'm not sure what Corbyn wanted to do to be honest. If he kept to the old left wing ideas of Gaitskell and Benn I imagine he would want quite a hard brexit with the key being other governments couldn't interfere with UK spending or tax plans. Might be wrong of course but he didn't really say once the campaigns started as he didn't want to antagonise the activists and members who are overwhelmingly pro-Remain. Labour voters might have been split, but party members were pretty strongly Remain, so he tended to say nothing.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Where did I say he escapes blame? Read slower.

Don't try to wiggle out of your post.
He escapes the majority of your blame when, opposition Brexit strategy was supposedly his department.

I assume you didn't like the fact I pointed out how asinine it is for you to (attribute a large portion of) blame on Labour for a Tory Brexit, so you ignored the rest of the post.

 

[711]

Don't try to wiggle out of your post.
He escapes the majority of your blame when, opposition Brexit strategy was supposedly his department.

I assume you didn't like the fact I pointed out how asinine it is for you to (attribute a large portion of) blame on Labour for a Tory Brexit, so you ignored the rest of the post.

Again, because you couldn't answer last time, where did I say Starmer escapes blame? Answer, I didn't. He clearly bore a lot of responsibility. So I did indeed ignore the rest of your post as it was supposedly responding to something I hadn't said in the first place.

But yes, whilst Brexit was Tory (well spotted) I do also place a lot of blame on Corbyn's Labour, and to make you feel better, that includes Starmer. If you think that is asinine fine, I get you don't like criticism of Corbyn, and it's what I would expect.

 

[Buster15]

Just not true though in any of the polling. He's continued to poll really badly thankfully Boris is seen as much worse.

Based on what?

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Again, because you couldn't answer last time, where did I say Starmer escapes blame? Answer, I didn't. He clearly bore a lot of responsibility. So I did indeed ignore the rest of your post as it was supposedly responding to something I hadn't said in the first place.

But yes, whilst Brexit was Tory (well spotted) I do also place a lot of blame on Corbyn's Labour, and to make you feel better, that includes Starmer. If you think that is asinine fine, I get you don't like criticism of Corbyn, and it's what I would expect.

I think you need to take your on advice, and read my previous post a little slower. I said Starmer escapes the majority of your blame. Again, trying to wiggle out of your initial post.

It's because some member of the British public fall for narratives like you have, blaming the opposition for government policy, that we end up with the most incompetent, corrupt and seemingly unaccountable government in living memory.

I could understand if you questioned FPTP or UK media coverage. So yes, I do think it is asinine to focus on blaming the opposition for problem created solely by the government.

 

[Smores]

Based on what?

YouGov polling. He was at 20% doing badly in May he's now up at 56%.

On Ipso Morsi he's at net -21 which is the same Corbyn was at this stage, Miliband was -13.

What's most concerning is you'll see this repeated across every demographic. The question is going to be how long Boris stays because that comparison helps Labour, if they change leader Starmer has a lot of work to do to catch them (Sunak).

By work i don't mean staying neutral either. He won't be able to attack Sunak on character/value so it'll have to be policy which Starmer is really weak on.

 

[Buster15]

YouGov polling. He was at 20% doing badly in May he's now up at 56%.

On Ipso Morsi he's at net -21 which is the same Corbyn was at this stage, Miliband was -13.

What's most concerning is you'll see this repeated across every demographic. The question is going to be how long Boris stays because that comparison helps Labour, if they change leader Starmer has a lot of work to do to catch them (Sunak).

By work i don't mean staying neutral either. He won't be able to attack Sunak on character/value so it'll have to be policy which Starmer is really weak on.

So he isn't continuing to poll really badly is he.
Forget May. That was as over half a year ago.
And as Harold Wilson once said. A week is a long time in politics.
Starmer is far from ideal. But at the moment, I believe he is doing ok.

 

[Smores]

So he isn't continuing to poll really badly is he.
Forget May. That was as over half a year ago.
And as Harold Wilson once said. A week is a long time in politics.
Starmer is far from ideal. But at the moment, I believe he is doing ok.

Think you've misread there. They're worse figures not better.

 

[matherto]

Was Brexit really Tory if the majority of Labour voters wanted it too? Especially to the point that they voted `tory last time to get it done.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Was Brexit really Tory if the majority of Labour voters wanted it too? Especially to the point that they voted `tory last time to get it done.

The key part is, the referendum was called by Cameron. Ridiculous that such a complex issue should have been decided by a referendum without a clear majority but, there you have it. Cameron called the referendum without defining a clear winning margin. 60/40 could've been a reasonable threshold to make changes.

The Leave campaign was headed and run by rabid Tory right wingers with the complicity of right wing media.

There was an argument by a minority for a socialist Brexit, but that was never on the cards, the reality is, Brexit was driven by the Tories and right wing media.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Starmer: Dec 2021
Keir Starmer’s reluctance to use the S-word is curious

The Labour leader refused to call himself a socialist in an interview last week

https://www.independent.co.uk/indep...mer-socialist-tony-blair-labour-b1978660.html


Starmer: Jan 2020
Labour can win again if we make the moral case for socialism
Keir Starmer
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...bour-socialism-values-election-economic-model

This sort of political trickery is so transparent, people dislike slippery politicians. These sorts of comments/lies will easily be picked up by opposition politicians and used against him.

 

[RedChip]

Was Brexit really Tory if the majority of Labour voters wanted it too? Especially to the point that they voted `tory last time to get it done.

Clear majority of labour voters were remain.

 

[DOTA]

Was Brexit really Tory if the majority of Labour voters wanted it too? Especially to the point that they voted `tory last time to get it done.

Clear majority of labour voters were remain.

It was roughly 70% remain. Slightly higher in some polls, slightly lower in others.

Labour did their bit. Cameron and co couldn't do theirs.

 

[FootballHQ]

Feels like a repeat of 2017 is on the cards. Labour will close the gap but won't quite be enough. An honourable 2-1 defeat in sporting terms.

Way some in the press talk though it's like the Tories have a 150-200 odd lead. It is 80 so not insurmountable and certainly very little chance Tories will call anything in 2023 with their current issues (I bet they thought covid would be long gone at this point).

Interesting next few years on the cards, not certain either Johnson will make it to next election either. If he does he'll be hopefully badly bruised and lack spark on the campaign trial....not that it seemingly matter to half the electorate.

 

[GuybrushThreepwood]

I still doubt whether Labour are strong enough to win without an effective anti-Tory tactical voting campaign. That doesn't mean standing down candidates, but it does mean standing paper candidates in seats where the Lib Dems or SNP have a better chance of beating the Tories, and not putting in any campaigning effort in those seats.

I know some Labour supporters in Cheltenham, who stubbornly refuse to realise that a vote for Labour in that constituency is in reality a vote to help the Tories beat the Lib Dems to win that that seat, and therefore a vote to boost the chances of Tory government.

Then again it works both ways. I remember in 2019 when Jo Swinson started off her campaign in 2019 in Kensington, a tight Labour-Tory marginal, where a pro-remain, pro-2nd referendum Labour MP was the incumbent, and not in one of the genuine Tory-Lib Dem battlegrounds (like Cheltenham, Cheadle etc.). The increase in the Lib Dem vote, helped a pro-Brexit Tory MP win that seat. Pure stupidity.

The Lib Dems can only possibly get the electoral reform that they crave, and which I think is desperately needed, by co-operating with Labour in government anyway.

 

[GuybrushThreepwood]

I honestly think Brexit was a complete hospital pass for Labour. The Conservatives were able to present themselves as the Brexit Party without fear of repercussion and in doing so, take UKIP votes and votes from Brexit-supporting Labour voters.

What could Labour do? At least half its membership and MPs supported Remain, eitber way they were going to alienate a good chunk of their support.

My personal view is that whatever Labour had done they would have gotten a thumping

I think that Labour just cannot handle 'constitutional politics', i.e. the issues of Scottish independence and Brexit. Constitutional politics is largely binary, eliciting strong opinions and emotions on both sides, and Labour end up enraging people on both sides of the fence and being seen as wishy washy.

Labour were basically the big losers from both the 2014 Scottish independence referendum and 2016 EU referendum, and ongoing debates and polarisation that resulted from them, as highlighted by the 40 seats lost in Scotland and 60 seats lost in Northern England, the Midlands and North Wales. As long as Scottish independence dominates the agenda in Scotland, I don't think there is any way back for them there, other than potentially winning a small handful of seats at the next general election.

BTW I agree that whatever Labour's Brexit policy was in 2019, there were doomed. They couldn't 'out-Brexit' the Tories, and supporting Johnson's deal would have caused a full-scale civil war within the party. I've spoke to many people who thought that their policy should have been to negotiate a new, 'softer' Brexit deal, without offering a 2nd referendum. But under that scenario, they would offered neither the promise of leaving the EU by January 31st 2020 to satisfy leavers and so the Tories' 'Get Brexit Done' pledge still would have cut through, or a 2nd referendum to satisfy remainers. So they still would have lost the votes of many leave supporters to either the Tories or Brexit Party, while hemorrhaging more votes of remain supporters to the Lib Dems or Greens, splitting the anti-Tory vote further in key marginal seats, and so most likely would have suffered an even worse defeat.

 

[Buster15]

Think you've misread there. They're worse figures not better.

Apology if I have misread the figures.
But looking at what you said about the You Gov poll, it said that he was doing badly at 20 and is now at 56%.
So is that not an improvement?

 

[nimic]

Apology if I have misread the figures.
But looking at what you said about the You Gov poll, it said that he was doing badly at 20 and is now at 56%.
So is that not an improvement?

I think he's saying 20% said he was doing badly, not that he was doing badly at 20%.

 

[Smores]

Apology if I have misread the figures.
But looking at what you said about the You Gov poll, it said that he was doing badly at 20 and is now at 56%.
So is that not an improvement?

As above, their polling deals in dissatisfaction scores. I guess politicians nearly always poll negatively so it's the better measure.

He has made a tiny impovement on these the last week or two but it's starting from a bad position. If he doesn't make serious headway in the next weeks i don't think he'll be in charge beyond next year.

 

[Buster15]

As above, their polling deals in dissatisfaction scores. I guess politicians nearly always poll negatively so it's the better measure.

He has made a tiny impovement on these the last week or two but it's starting from a bad position. If he doesn't make serious headway in the next weeks i don't think he'll be in charge beyond next year.

Ok. Now I understand and thanks for the clarification.

 

[Buster15]

I think he's saying 20% said he was doing badly, not that he was doing badly at 20%.

Understood. Thank you.

 

[esmufc07]

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[Fluctuation0161]

A "broad church"?
Jewish woman accused of antisemitism by Labour threatens to sue
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ntisemitism-labour-threatens-sue-anti-zionism

 

[Red_Jamie]

A "broad church"?
Jewish woman accused of antisemitism by Labour threatens to sue
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ntisemitism-labour-threatens-sue-anti-zionism

And he had the nerve to tweet in support of Desmond Tutu today. Stamer is absolutely pathetic isn't he.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

And he had the nerve to tweet in support of Desmond Tutu today. Stamer is absolutely pathetic isn't he.

He has zero ideas. Zero integrity.

Luckily the Tories are imploding right now so you could have a monkey in charge of the opposition and they would be ahead in the polls. Once Boris is replaced in time for the next GE Starmer will offer nothing.

 

[Jippy]

A "broad church"?
Jewish woman accused of antisemitism by Labour threatens to sue
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ntisemitism-labour-threatens-sue-anti-zionism

Can't think why the party is being a bit heavy-handed on antisemitism...Clearly they need to apply a bit of commonsense to the algorithms scouring members' tweets though.

 

[groovyalbert]

Can't think why the party is being a bit heavy-handed on antisemitism...Clearly they need to apply a bit of commonsense to the algorithms scouring members' tweets though.

Perhaps but fixing Labour's antisemitism issues that were exposed under Corbyn was something Starmer campaigner hard on, and something that he has on the whole managed to get a grip on/turn the tide.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

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[Jippy]

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She can try and dress it up as some exciting inside line, but it's a very bland article with zero insight. It's not like any party has actively sought out incompetent candidates.

 

[Zlatattack]

Has anyone seen the latest snake move by David Lammy, who's recently been selected as Shadow Foreign Secratary? He apologised for voting for Corbyn at a Jewish festival.

https://www.indy100.com/politics/david-lammy-jeremy-corbyn-leader-b1983233

I used to like the guy but he's clearly a Starmer-esque sleazeball.

 

[esmufc07]

I should hope they’re different from the Corbyn crop I still have nightmares about Burgon.