Kelvin McKenzie uses racial slur against Ross Barkley

RedRover

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Except gorilla isn't in any way an exclusively racially loaded term. By which I mean that even though it has obviously and repeatedly been used as a racist insult it has also been obviously and repeatedly used as a insult towards stupid people in general. In a lot of contexts it isn't even remotely racially loaded.

It would be bizarre to expect people to never describe men as apes/gorillas when it's a perfectly normal and unremarkable turn of phrase.

The really annoying thing about this whole racsim angle is that it has distracted from the more obvious and pernicious angle of his story, the attack on Liverpudlians.
Whether or not this was intended as a racist insult is irrelevant and that seems to be getting a bit lost in semantics.

This man is given a platform in a national newspaper (as disgusting as the Sun is) and uses it to launch a completely unprovoked character assassination on a young lad who's done nothing except get punched by some lunatic in a nightclub, and then gone on to insult a whole city just to cause a bit of controversy.

That's not journalism and any right thinking society should condemn him. I hope he gets sacked and I hope Ross Barkley drags him through the courts if for nothing other than to embarrass him.

The fact that the press think anyone is fair game disgusts me.
 
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RedRover

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England's 'dismissive' attitude towards Liverpool has nothing to do with Irish immigrants, nor is it that historical. It started in the 80's during the Thatcher years, when, like a lot of northern towns & cities, Maggie, & her government, pretty much left them to rot & focused everything on the south, especially London. Liverpool suffered more than most mainly because the extreme left wing under Derek Hatton had taken control of the city. In the 60's Merseyside was the place to be. A thriving port, a music scene that was the envy of the world, & very little in the way of unemployment. 2 decades later it was a different story. The Toxteth riots, Heysel, a bankrupt city struggling with poverty, crime, & unemployment. It also prompted something of a 'southern' gloating-fest with Harry Enfield creating characters such as 'Loadsamoney', a big-mouth cockney plasterer who bragged about all the work he had & the size of his wad. Kelvin McKenzie, as you'd expect, loved this character so much that he became a regular feature in The Sun. Then we had the Scousers. A bunch of work-shy, benefit seeking, curly-haired Liverpool lads in shell-suits who were up for a fight anytime, anywhere. They became a national favourite, even in Liverpool it has to be said. Unfortunately though, the parody seemed to be lost on a lot of people who actually believed, in their ignorance, that most people in Merseyside were like that. Then we had Hillsborough. Although there was an enormous amount of sympathy for the city initially, thanks to Kelvin McKenzie & The Sun, a lot of people believed that we Liverpool supporters were responsible for the deaths of our fellow Liverpool fans that day, so the anti-Liverpool agenda gathered up more steam. Then a couple of years after that there was the awful murder of little Jamie Bulger, which once again brought the city to it's knees, & cast another strong negative light over Merseyside & it's people. Coming so soon after the Hillsborough tragedy, it prompted one journalist to label Liverpool as 'self-pity city' as people mourned the death of the little lad. I think what happened after that is that the city became very insular & had a f**k you attitude to outsiders & their prejudices.

This dismissive attitude, I'm glad to say, has slowly eroded over the years. Liverpool is now a very popular tourist attraction, & is a great place for a night out. Of course you've still got those who think we've all got a garage full of stolen hubcaps hidden away somewhere. But we're happy to leave them, & their outdated, stereotypical, attitudes behind.
Liverpool is a great city in my experience.

You see this to a lesser extent in the North East and especially in Newcastle. People who visit are shocked by how nice it is. They think we're all walking whippets and wearing flat caps.
 

ZAGREB RED

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His choice of description for Ross Barkley is at best, "unfortunate" - and that is being extremely generous to McKenzie - and, at worst, despicable, I hope he is punished severely for it, what a total and utter cretin - and again I think that description of McKenzie is being generous. Contemptible asshole that he is.
Even if he didn't intend to be racist, what did he actually think his article would achieve in journalistic terms ? I just wonder what Ross Barkley actually did to deserve this sort of treatment. Calling this gutter journalism is being extremely euphemistic, it is way beyond that.
 

Rado_N

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Slighty taking the attention from soft ' ollies.

I was out today with me old mates from the match ( 28 years and all that ) and we done our usual stuff on the 15th having a bevvie and the craic and all that . We all agreed that this year feels different as we feel liberated from all the shite that has hung over since we were kids . I told them about Redcafe and that some Manc's are sound and are with us on this and they support us .

They were humbled and they send their gratitude and thanks to all d'em Manc's that support us.

Big Love's from the Irish Immigrant less then two bob for chips we don't give a feck City .

We love you !
Exactly how many 'bevvies' did you have?!
 

vadimivich

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I'm seriously confused as to how anyone would not think that calling someone a gorilla has racial undertones. You have to be seriously obtuse to not understand where that choice of words is coming from. Comparing someone with blacker skin or African heritage to various forms of primates as a racially based insult is darn near the oldest form of racist speech there is.
 

golden_blunder

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Of all the thick/dim footballers with 'magnificent physiques', past and present, how many have you heard been called a gorilla/ape by a journalist?

Rooney, Keane, Keown, Barton, Diego Costa. All varying degrees of dim or showed knuckle dragging behaviour.
I remember when united played Arsenal and Ruud missed a peno, known jumping at him like a gorilla dropping from a tree. In fact several of the papers mocked Keown up to look like an ape. There was not a word uttered then about race, including on Redcafe. In fact as I recall keown was subject to good old fashioned caf photoshopping

I'm not excusing mckenzie at all, he's an utter Cnut it's just that people keeping saying how obviously it's about race - it's not obvious to me, I still think it was an insult on his behaviour and posture. Either way a journalist shouldn't be allowed to get away with stuff like that.

Remember when lineker quipped on motd about Ruud "why the long face?".
 

Big Andy

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I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that England's historical dismissive attitude towards Liverpool and Scousers is based in anti-Irish and anti-Catholic sentiment.
No, it's because they are, generally, cnuts...
 

2 man midfield

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I remember when united played Arsenal and Ruud missed a peno, known jumping at him like a gorilla dropping from a tree. In fact several of the papers mocked Keown up to look like an ape. There was not a word uttered then about race, including on Redcafe. In fact as I recall keown was subject to good old fashioned caf photoshopping

I'm not excusing mckenzie at all, he's an utter Cnut it's just that people keeping saying how obviously it's about race - it's not obvious to me, I still think it was an insult on his behaviour and posture. Either way a journalist shouldn't be allowed to get away with stuff like that.

Remember when lineker quipped on motd about Ruud "why the long face?".
It's happened a few times to my mind. Bale, Diego Costa and Simeone are probably the most recent ones off the top of my head.
 

Manny

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I remember when united played Arsenal and Ruud missed a peno, known jumping at him like a gorilla dropping from a tree. In fact several of the papers mocked Keown up to look like an ape. There was not a word uttered then about race, including on Redcafe. In fact as I recall keown was subject to good old fashioned caf photoshopping

I'm not excusing mckenzie at all, he's an utter Cnut it's just that people keeping saying how obviously it's about race - it's not obvious to me, I still think it was an insult on his behaviour and posture. Either way a journalist shouldn't be allowed to get away with stuff like that.

Remember when lineker quipped on motd about Ruud "why the long face?".
Granted, Keown was likened to a gorilla (by everyone) but that had more to do with him actually behaving like a gorilla.

As far as that posture image goes, I could find you a hundreds of pictures of footballers, playing football, and resembling primates.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Comparing someone with blacker skin or African heritage to various forms of primates as a racially based insult is darn near the oldest form of racist speech there is.
I doubt anyone would deny that.

But calling someone a gorilla, specifically, does not necessarily carry any racist undertones. It's a very common term for someone big, strong and usually stupid. An enforcer, a goon, a thug, a muscular jock, etc.

«I'd watch myself, her boyfriend is a feckin' gorilla.»

Would your first thought be that the above is a racist remark?

Anyway, it almost looks as though some people are worried KM will emerge, all of a sudden, as a relatively decent chap if everyone doesn't insist that he intended to reference Barkley's grandfather with his gorilla remark. The man's reprehensible, and quite possibly a flaming racist too, but the remark itself simply isn't unambiguously racist. Why focus on it? The piece is terrible on all sorts of levels. Whether it also contains a veiled racist dig at Barkley seems like a minor concern (and it's a distraction, which several posters have rightly pointed out).
 
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Fener1907

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Do they do this kind of rubbish on purpose to get the newspaper's name out there a bit more? Their history with the city of Liverpool being what it is, they must have known it would provoke some kind of response, otherwise they wouldn't even go close to attacking the city or a person from it.
 

Cassady

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England's 'dismissive' attitude towards Liverpool has nothing to do with Irish immigrants, nor is it that historical. It started in the 80's during the Thatcher years, when, like a lot of northern towns & cities, Maggie, & her government, pretty much left them to rot & focused everything on the south, especially London. Liverpool suffered more than most mainly because the extreme left wing under Derek Hatton had taken control of the city. In the 60's Merseyside was the place to be. A thriving port, a music scene that was the envy of the world, & very little in the way of unemployment. 2 decades later it was a different story. The Toxteth riots, Heysel, a bankrupt city struggling with poverty, crime, & unemployment. It also prompted something of a 'southern' gloating-fest with Harry Enfield creating characters such as 'Loadsamoney', a big-mouth cockney plasterer who bragged about all the work he had & the size of his wad. Kelvin McKenzie, as you'd expect, loved this character so much that he became a regular feature in The Sun. Then we had the Scousers. A bunch of work-shy, benefit seeking, curly-haired Liverpool lads in shell-suits who were up for a fight anytime, anywhere. They became a national favourite, even in Liverpool it has to be said. Unfortunately though, the parody seemed to be lost on a lot of people who actually believed, in their ignorance, that most people in Merseyside were like that. Then we had Hillsborough. Although there was an enormous amount of sympathy for the city initially, thanks to Kelvin McKenzie & The Sun, a lot of people believed that we Liverpool supporters were responsible for the deaths of our fellow Liverpool fans that day, so the anti-Liverpool agenda gathered up more steam. Then a couple of years after that there was the awful murder of little Jamie Bulger, which once again brought the city to it's knees, & cast another strong negative light over Merseyside & it's people. Coming so soon after the Hillsborough tragedy, it prompted one journalist to label Liverpool as 'self-pity city' as people mourned the death of the little lad. I think what happened after that is that the city became very insular & had a f**k you attitude to outsiders & their prejudices.

This dismissive attitude, I'm glad to say, has slowly eroded over the years. Liverpool is now a very popular tourist attraction, & is a great place for a night out. Of course you've still got those who think we've all got a garage full of stolen hubcaps hidden away somewhere. But we're happy to leave them, & their outdated, stereotypical, attitudes behind.
That is a great post.
 

Cassady

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Liverpool is a great city in my experience.

You see this to a lesser extent in the North East and especially in Newcastle. People who visit are shocked by how nice it is. They think we're all walking whippets and wearing flat caps.
I have Geordie mates and visit them every now and then. You're right . The cities and the people are very similar.
 

vadimivich

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I doubt anyone would deny that.

But calling someone a gorilla, specifically, does not necessarily carry any racist undertones. It's a very common term for someone big, strong and usually stupid. An enforcer, a goon, a thug, a muscular jock, etc.

«I'd watch myself, her boyfriend is a feckin' gorilla.»

Would your first thought be that the above is a racist remark?
If her boyfriend was black or had African heritage, yes.

You do realize that something can be both racist and not racist depending on context? In fact, context is EVERYTHING.
 

Chesterlestreet

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If her boyfriend was black or had African heritage, yes.

You do realize that something can be both racist and not racist depending on context? In fact, context is EVERYTHING.
You don't know who her boyfriend is. That's the context.

Your last sentence is - obviously - the exact point I'm trying to make.
 

Sparky_Hughes

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England's 'dismissive' attitude towards Liverpool has nothing to do with Irish immigrants, nor is it that historical. It started in the 80's during the Thatcher years, when, like a lot of northern towns & cities, Maggie, & her government, pretty much left them to rot & focused everything on the south, especially London. Liverpool suffered more than most mainly because the extreme left wing under Derek Hatton had taken control of the city. In the 60's Merseyside was the place to be. A thriving port, a music scene that was the envy of the world, & very little in the way of unemployment. 2 decades later it was a different story. The Toxteth riots, Heysel, a bankrupt city struggling with poverty, crime, & unemployment. It also prompted something of a 'southern' gloating-fest with Harry Enfield creating characters such as 'Loadsamoney', a big-mouth cockney plasterer who bragged about all the work he had & the size of his wad. Kelvin McKenzie, as you'd expect, loved this character so much that he became a regular feature in The Sun. Then we had the Scousers. A bunch of work-shy, benefit seeking, curly-haired Liverpool lads in shell-suits who were up for a fight anytime, anywhere. They became a national favourite, even in Liverpool it has to be said. Unfortunately though, the parody seemed to be lost on a lot of people who actually believed, in their ignorance, that most people in Merseyside were like that. Then we had Hillsborough. Although there was an enormous amount of sympathy for the city initially, thanks to Kelvin McKenzie & The Sun, a lot of people believed that we Liverpool supporters were responsible for the deaths of our fellow Liverpool fans that day, so the anti-Liverpool agenda gathered up more steam. Then a couple of years after that there was the awful murder of little Jamie Bulger, which once again brought the city to it's knees, & cast another strong negative light over Merseyside & it's people. Coming so soon after the Hillsborough tragedy, it prompted one journalist to label Liverpool as 'self-pity city' as people mourned the death of the little lad. I think what happened after that is that the city became very insular & had a f**k you attitude to outsiders & their prejudices.

This dismissive attitude, I'm glad to say, has slowly eroded over the years. Liverpool is now a very popular tourist attraction, & is a great place for a night out. Of course you've still got those who think we've all got a garage full of stolen hubcaps hidden away somewhere. But we're happy to leave them, & their outdated, stereotypical, attitudes behind.
To be honest me and the Mrs had a long weekend break in Liverpool a few months back, and not having been near the place for the best part of a decade was surprised at how vibrant fun and friendly the place was.
 

SteveJ

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I seeeeee...this suggests that Sparky is completely responsible for Liverpool's poor reputation. No surprise to me. :D
 

Parry Gallister

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Been on holiday so only caught this before our match today. Man's a disgrace, as is the paper he writes for, would be great if the rest of the league joined the Liverpool teams in banning them.
 

sugar_kane

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Been on holiday so only caught this before our match today. Man's a disgrace, as is the paper he writes for, would be great if the rest of the league joined the Liverpool teams in banning them.
The Premier League is one of the few entities powerful enough to do so.

As well as the racial undertones of the article it felt like an open attack on normal working class people of which the Premier Leagues fan base is made up of - and it wouldn't be the first time.

They should absolutely ban this garbage and maybe some other entities e.g. Advertisers might show the balls to do so and finally take this awful establishment down.
 

Robertd0803

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I don't even know much about Barkley but even I know that he had a Nigerian grandad.
Same here wasn't there some story about him possibly being able to play for Nigeria through grandparents or something?

Anyway subtle racism is still racism and regardless of that and if it was meant or not the rest of the article is still beyond offensive to Barkley and people of Liverpool. Glad to see Everton banned them and Id hope that other clubs would so the same in support of their fellow club.

(but that should have been done after the Hillsborough findings cleared the fans of any blame anyway but that's another argument).
 

top1whoisman

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The Sun:

On April 14 we published a piece in the Kelvin MacKenzie column about footballer Ross Barkley which made unfavourable comparisons between Mr Barkley and a gorilla.

At the time of publication, the paper was unaware of Ross Barkley’s heritage and there was never any slur intended.

As soon as his background was drawn to our attention, the article was removed from online.

We have been contacted by lawyers on behalf of Ross Barkley, who has made a formal complaint about the piece.

The Sun has apologised for the offence caused by the piece.

We would like to take this opportunity to apologise personally to Ross Barkley.
Too little, too late.
 

Nogbadthebad

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They don't give a feck about barkley, so i would guess this time its hurting them in the wallet.

Either the amount of money he could get in a lawsuit, or advertisers (maybe even the league or the FA) putting real pressure on behind the scenes.