[Rolaholic]

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[hasanejaz88]

It shouldn't become legion that he cannot hit long, forward passes because it's patently untrue. There's a big difference between being risk averse and simply not having the attribute in the locker. Mainoo was well known for his passing range before promotion to the 1st team, but his job brief and his natural instinct is that ball retention and recycling is king, that whilst it seems Casemiro and Bruno are charged with punting the ball to the moon as and when they feel like.

Mainoo has obviously been schooled in keeping the ball over anything else, and perhaps his roots as a crossover #6 and #8 show here in how he treats taking those risks frequently whilst others go for it a lot more from the same positions on the pitch.

He has hit some peaches of long and/or forward passes for club and country already and with time, he will display how expansive he is because that ability has earned him praise on his way up.

The big difference between his unders self and the one playing professional football is that he was given the team at unders, whilst as a pro, he is a cog with a specific job to do. With time, his briefing will change, so will the confidence and expectation to give him the midfield.

It should be recalled that in every midfield there is an issue of deference. A go to guy who dictates and allows others to do there thing. When Keane was here, he dictated to Scholes or whoever else he was with, and it's not a coincidence that Scholes become more expressive, with more touches or the ball than anyone else when Keane left. With Keane there, he always led the team for touches and passes and set the tempo. Scholes did the same to Carrick, and it's a common theme in most teams; it's rare that a load is equally shared - everyone identifies who is the chief, even if others are really sublime with the ball. Perfect examples at the top of the totem would be Xavi and Modric. Busquets and Iniesta were superb passers in their own right, but Xavi owned that midfield; ditto Modric next to Kroos, and it's now Modric is on the wind down that the midfield becomes Kroos' to do with as he pleases/dictates. You can see the same with England; that midfield is Bellingham's, and he takes it over as and when he feels like it. We're some way off giving the midfield to Mainoo. In fact, he's third in the pecking order for now, so the likelihood of him massively expressing his passing range is going to be reduced for now.

But his passing range is not limited, really. His reluctance to express that is another matter.

As an aside, it is very clear Eriksen is seen as the top dog at the club when it comes to deep passing. When he is on the pitch, literally all defer to and are led by him, despite his aged legs and inability to get around the pitch. Passing hierarchy is a [big] thing. Deference is clear on a football pitch.

I haven't seen Mainoo at youth level so I can't say to what his passing ability was there. I agree to your point that some midfielders can be restricted due to the role they are given and therefore that could explain Mainoo's lower tendency to pass long.

His deference does show in his lower passing volume but his passing stats though do also show his long range accuracy is right now not at the level you want long term. His long pass accuracy is only 56%, which is quite low compared to his peers.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

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Can he do it on a rainy night in Stoke, though?

 

[Adnan]

Scholes was all about passing and moving though. Mainoo is more direct and more of a carrier of the ball and I don't think he has it in him to play the Scholes way at the highest level.. It's why I think we need a holding midfielder that is better at controlling the game and dictating play sitting next to him, as opposed to a dedicated ball winner. Guimaraes would be the best available but I doubt he would come to us. Gutted we missed out on Rice tbh.

I have to disagree with you here and say that Mainoo is absolutely a pass and move midfielder. One of the poster's mentioned him being a roaming playmaker in midfield which I agree with. Scholes at the same age wasn't as good as Mainoo is right now and was more of a forward playing off either Eric Cantona or Andy Cole when he broke into the team as a regular after the departure of Mark Hughes, which opened up a spot in the team for him. Fergie even bought Veron to try and crack the Champions league because he didn't feel he had the creativity in midfield for the highest level. Scholes matured into a better player in his mid 20s, but wasn't anywhere near the quality of midfielder he would become later in his career. And you have to also remember that the team Scholes came into was two times EPL champions and were the best team in the country. So dominating games wasn't difficult for that team and the team right now isn't close to being the best in the land and the EPL is of a higher quality now than it was back then imo.

The word control is used on here often but exerting control requires more than just midfielders in the present game imo. Controlling games requires the whole backline to contribute in possession as well out of possession. The league is very strong with teams developing themselves to exert control in possession, exert control whilst defending from the front and also to exert control when exploiting space in transition aswell as defending transitions in large spaces when the opposition is breaking at speed. So if you take a closer look at how the likes of Klopp or Arteta have developed their teams over the years then it becomes very clear that they create a strong foundation when it comes to controlling and containing transitions are concerned and hence their duel winning capability is of a very high level. If we want to challenge for the league, then we have to raise our duel winning capability in the first phase without compromising on technical ability. We have a number of players at the back and in midfield who have big potential in possession but our channel defending and duel winning capability isn't of a very high level. It’s why clubs like Liverpool and Arsenal are very good because the likes of Henderson, Wijnaldum, Matip and Van Dijk raised the level when it came to winning duels, playing with intensity and tenacity which allowed them to press high and defend transitions at a high level, which in-turn results in sustaining attacks in the opponent's half, where the opponent is pinned in their own half with wave after wave of attacks coming at them. Arsenal last season with Partey, Xhaka, Saliba and Gabriel again displayed a strong duel winning capability and this season they've reinforced that capability with the addition of Declan Rice.

The tweet below is from someone that has collected data over a long period of games and as you can see that the best teams are those teams who can extinguish the threat before it becomes a threat. And when you have strong duellers who are difficult to beat in 1v1 situations in midfield and in the channels, then you as a team will be playing the game in the opponent's half and control will have been exerted both in possession and out of possession.

The data below quite clearly shows where we need to improve and why Arsenal are so good at sustaining attacks in the opponent's half due to their duel winning ability in midfield and at the back with added control coming from players at fullback who are adept at tucking in as CBs or in midfield.

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For me the best football teams are those that can adapt to any situation. Play from the back when required, play direct when required but play with tempo, speed and intensity with and without the ball. That for me has the potential of being effective football, attacking football, with speed and tempo which makes for devastating football

 

[BenitoSTARR]

I have to disagree with you here and say that Mainoo is absolutely a pass and move midfielder. One of the poster's mentioned him being a roaming playmaker in midfield which I agree with. Scholes at the same age wasn't as good as Mainoo is right now and was more of a forward playing off either Eric Cantona or Andy Cole when he broke into the team as a regular after the departure of Mark Hughes, which opened up a spot in the team for him. Fergie even bought Veron to try and crack the Champions league because he didn't feel he had the creativity in midfield for the highest level. Scholes matured into a better player in his mid 20s, but wasn't anywhere near the quality of midfielder he would become later in his career. And you have to also remember that the team Scholes came into was two times EPL champions and were the best team in the country. So dominating games wasn't difficult for that team and the team right now isn't close to being the best in the land and the EPL is of a higher quality now than it was back then imo.

The word control is used on here often but exerting control requires more than just midfielders in the present game imo. Controlling games requires the whole backline to contribute in possession as well out of possession. The league is very strong with teams developing themselves to exert control in possession, exert control whilst defending from the front and also to exert control when exploiting space in transition aswell as defending transitions in large spaces when the opposition is breaking at speed. So if you take a closer look at how the likes of Klopp or Arteta have developed their teams over the years then it becomes very clear that they create a strong foundation when it comes to controlling and containing transitions are concerned and hence their duel winning capability is of a very high level. If we want to challenge for the league, then we have to raise our duel winning capability in the first phase without compromising on technical ability. We have a number of players at the back and in midfield who have big potential in possession but our channel defending and duel winning capability isn't of a very high level. It’s why clubs like Liverpool and Arsenal are very good because the likes of Henderson, Wijnaldum, Matip and Van Dijk raised the level when it came to winning duels, playing with intensity and tenacity which allowed them to press high and defend transitions at a high level, which in-turn results in sustaining attacks in the opponent's half, where the opponent is pinned in their own half with wave after wave of attacks coming at them. Arsenal last season with Partey, Xhaka, Saliba and Gabriel again displayed a strong duel winning capability and this season they've reinforced that capability with the addition of Declan Rice.

The tweet below is from someone that has collected data over a long period of games and as you can see that the best teams are those teams who can extinguish the threat before it becomes a threat. And when you have strong duellers who are difficult to beat in 1v1 situations in midfield and in the channels, then you as a team will be playing the game in the opponent's half and control will have been exerted both in possession and out of possession.

The data below quite clearly shows where we need to improve and why Arsenal are so good at sustaining attacks in the opponent's half due to their duel winning ability in midfield and at the back with added control coming from players at fullback who are adept at tucking in as CBs or in midfield.

Tweet

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For me the best football teams are those that can adapt to any situation. Play from the back when required, play direct when required but play with tempo, speed and intensity with and without the ball. That for me has the potential of being effective football, attacking football, with speed and tempo which makes for devastating football

Great fecking post.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

I have to disagree with you here and say that Mainoo is absolutely a pass and move midfielder. One of the poster's mentioned him being a roaming playmaker in midfield which I agree with. Scholes at the same age wasn't as good as Mainoo is right now and was more of a forward playing off either Eric Cantona or Andy Cole when he broke into the team as a regular after the departure of Mark Hughes, which opened up a spot in the team for him. Fergie even bought Veron to try and crack the Champions league because he didn't feel he had the creativity in midfield for the highest level. Scholes matured into a better player in his mid 20s, but wasn't anywhere near the quality of midfielder he would become later in his career. And you have to also remember that the team Scholes came into was two times EPL champions and were the best team in the country. So dominating games wasn't difficult for that team and the team right now isn't close to being the best in the land and the EPL is of a higher quality now than it was back then imo.

The word control is used on here often but exerting control requires more than just midfielders in the present game imo. Controlling games requires the whole backline to contribute in possession as well out of possession. The league is very strong with teams developing themselves to exert control in possession, exert control whilst defending from the front and also to exert control when exploiting space in transition aswell as defending transitions in large spaces when the opposition is breaking at speed. So if you take a closer look at how the likes of Klopp or Arteta have developed their teams over the years then it becomes very clear that they create a strong foundation when it comes to controlling and containing transitions are concerned and hence their duel winning capability is of a very high level. If we want to challenge for the league, then we have to raise our duel winning capability in the first phase without compromising on technical ability. We have a number of players at the back and in midfield who have big potential in possession but our channel defending and duel winning capability isn't of a very high level. It’s why clubs like Liverpool and Arsenal are very good because the likes of Henderson, Wijnaldum, Matip and Van Dijk raised the level when it came to winning duels, playing with intensity and tenacity which allowed them to press high and defend transitions at a high level, which in-turn results in sustaining attacks in the opponent's half, where the opponent is pinned in their own half with wave after wave of attacks coming at them. Arsenal last season with Partey, Xhaka, Saliba and Gabriel again displayed a strong duel winning capability and this season they've reinforced that capability with the addition of Declan Rice.

The tweet below is from someone that has collected data over a long period of games and as you can see that the best teams are those teams who can extinguish the threat before it becomes a threat. And when you have strong duellers who are difficult to beat in 1v1 situations in midfield and in the channels, then you as a team will be playing the game in the opponent's half and control will have been exerted both in possession and out of possession.

The data below quite clearly shows where we need to improve and why Arsenal are so good at sustaining attacks in the opponent's half due to their duel winning ability in midfield and at the back with added control coming from players at fullback who are adept at tucking in as CBs or in midfield.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

For me the best football teams are those that can adapt to any situation. Play from the back when required, play direct when required but play with tempo, speed and intensity with and without the ball. That for me has the potential of being effective football, attacking football, with speed and tempo which makes for devastating football

You won’t out duel teams with the profile of player EtH seems to lean towards.

Really pisses me off that soft Arsenal have come to terms with the physical side of the game whilst we were going into a season with Eriksen & Mount as midfield options.

I hope Ineos address this & quickly.

 

[Adnan]

You won’t out duel teams with the profile of player EtH seems to lean towards.

Really pisses me off that soft Arsenal have come to terms with the physical side of the game whilst we were going into a season with Eriksen & Mount as midfield options.

I hope Ineos address this & quickly.

The players EtH and the scouting team wanted were of that profile hence we made attempts to sign them. Players like Onana, Todibo and Fofana were sought, before we settled for Amrabat on the last day of the transfer window. This was reported by tier 1 sources in England and in France

It's not that Erik ten Hag leans towards physically inferior players. But rather the team he inherited required a GK, CBs, midfielders with Pogba leaving on a free and we had no mid to long-term central striker. Even Arsenal had to suffer finishing 8th, 8th, 5th before eventually coming strong once Partey, Xhaka, Saliba and Gabriel came together to form a strong foundation for Arteta to finally show his coaching prowess. Without a strong foundation a coach is limited as to what he can do.

So from what was reported, we wanted to sign the players below but certain players refused to leave and there's only so much one can do apart from be patient.

Kim Min Jae (Todibo)
Mason Mount
Rasmus Hojlund
Amadou Onana (Fofana, Amrabat)
Andre Onana

And we also introduced Kobbie Mainoo into the team which I was telling people was going to happen due to what I saw ten Hag do in preseason.

So from the players above, the only signing that ten Hag made as a direct first choice was Andre Onana. And again that only happened because the GKs put forward by Mayorga and Wells were either too expensive (Maignan) or too young in Bart Verbruggen's case. So what ten Hag is doing is that he's accepting the players put forward by the scouts, but if you can't get the deal done for financial reasons then he wants someone rather than no one at all.

 

[Fortitude]

The players EtH and the scouting team wanted were of that profile hence we made attempts to sign them. Players like Onana, Todibo and Fofana were sought, before we settled for Amrabat on the last day of the transfer window. This was reported by tier 1 sources in England and in France

It's not that Erik ten Hag leans towards physically inferior players. But rather the team he inherited required a GK, CBs, midfielders with Pogba leaving on a free and we had no mid to long-term central striker. Even Arsenal had to suffer finishing 8th, 8th, 5th before eventually coming strong once Partey, Xhaka, Saliba and Gabriel came together to form a strong foundation for Arteta to finally show his coaching prowess. Without a strong foundation a coach is limited as to what he can do.

So from what was reported, we wanted to sign the players below but certain players refused to leave and there's only so much one can do apart from be patient.

Kim Min Jae (Todibo)
Mason Mount
Rasmus Hojlund
Amadou Onana (Fofana, Amrabat)
Andre Onana

And we also introduced Kobbie Mainoo into the team which I was telling people was going to happen due to what I saw ten Hag do in preseason.

So from the players above, the only signing that ten Hag made as a direct first choice was Andre Onana. And again that only happened because the GKs put forward by Mayorga and Wells were either too expensive (Maignan) or too young in Bart Verbruggen's case. So what ten Hag is doing is that he's accepting the players put forward by the scouts, but if you can't get the deal done for financial reasons then he wants someone rather than no one at all.

It's funny you make the strongest case for him whilst not posting in his thread.

I take it you're 100% and unwavering with him?

 

[Ali Dia]

You won’t out duel teams with the profile of player EtH seems to lean towards.

Really pisses me off that soft Arsenal have come to terms with the physical side of the game whilst we were going into a season with Eriksen & Mount as midfield options.

I hope Ineos address this & quickly.

Yup! The player of the past this current team is missing is Roy Keane. I think SJR slightly missed a trick by saying Scholes. I agree Mainoo is absolutely a playmaking midfielder. We need real steel in beside him but obviously with enough class to change a game.

 

[M15 Red.]

Everyone seems to think he's a Real talent, with world class potential.

But I see a bin bag full of shite.

What am I missing?

 

[Utd heap]

Everyone seems to think he's a Real talent, with world class potential.

But I see a bin bag full of shite.

What am I missing?

Few beers tonight mate?

 

[Fortitude]

Everyone seems to think he's a Real talent, with world class potential.

But I see a bin bag full of shite.

What am I missing?

Eyes.

 

[Borussia Teeth]

Let’s hope for the former.

Hopefully neither

 

[Captmfla]

Mainoo is the polar opposite of McTominay. Mainoo can dribble, pass and hold on to the ball. Together, he will compliment McTom in midfield! What a strong pairing.

 

[Adnan]

It's funny you make the strongest case for him whilst not posting in his thread.

I take it you're 100% and unwavering with him?

At this stage my support for ten Hag is absolutely unwavering. And I've given my reasons as to why that is the case. I feel the next transfer window has the potential to really propel us towards the top teams and I feel a lot of the criticism towards some of our players in forward positions is due to not having a strong foundation behind them. Players who have the potential to defend on the front foot and dominate duels as well as having the technical ability on the ball to progress play from the deeper midfield and CB positions can have a galvanising effect on how we play, and give ten Hag the tools to get the system working from back to front.

And I try to stay out of certain threads if I can help it, because it's the same posters with the same opinions who give me a head ache.

So coming into this thread after Mainoo's MOTM performance and reading posts from people like yourself and some others, makes it a enjoyable experience for me.

 

[JakeC]

I think I've copped it, the simple reason he's potentially generational...

His ability to shift the ball from one foot to the other, it's like something I've never seen before in a midfielder. He has the mental aptitude, the physical competence, and the technical ability to keep opposition players completely unsure. He must have nutmegged 5 people in the last month or so.

 

[Posh Red]

Everyone seems to think he's a Real talent, with world class potential.

But I see a bin bag full of shite.

What am I missing?

I think you’ve accidentally been watching a bin bag full of shite, rather than Kobbie Mainoo. Maybe rethink the Feng Shui in your living room.

 

[Offside]

Haven’t seen a young player being so overhyped in a long time. Almost like yous want him to fail. Hopefully he has the right mentality to fulfil the huge potential and doesn’t start thinking he’s the real deal already.

 

[Fortitude]

At this stage my support for ten Hag is absolutely unwavering. And I've given my reasons as to why that is the case. I feel the next transfer window has the potential to really propel us towards the top teams and I feel a lot of the criticism towards some of our players in forward positions is due to not having a strong foundation behind them. Players who have the potential to defend on the front foot and dominate duels as well as having the technical ability on the ball to progress play from the deeper midfield and CB positions can have a galvanising effect on how we play, and give ten Hag the tools to get the system working from back to front.

And I try to stay out of certain threads if I can help it, because it's the same posters with the same opinions who give me a head ache.

So coming into this thread after Mainoo's MOTM performance and reading posts from people like yourself and some others, makes it a enjoyable experience for me.

You raise a good point about the user experience; some actual joy about something United and a collective positivity that I think is the good sort (opposed to the toxic kind), has been refreshing. The manner of the Liverpool win into Kobbie performing like a veteran has been fun and constructive - attention switching to what might be possible in the future and what we should be building around him is also nice.

I was initially [extremely] high on ETH coming here and revolutionising us. He's done a lot this season which has seen me call for his head and also given massive cause for concern, but I believe the man has 9 lives and circumstance favours him greatly; I don't believe we have the resources to sack him in the middle of all the financial hits and FFP restrictions, so have felt it's fated that he sees through whatever it is he envisions, and looking through it through that lens, have softened my stance. So long as he does rights by the kids, commits to going for games and has folk around him providing the talent, my slate is wiped clean. I want to see growth and this return to the fold is pivotal in terms of that. Anyway, not to pollute this thread with crossover angst, I'll stop there.

Keep up the good work. Your posts remain insightful and cathartic during tense and emotive periods and the site needs a lot more of that. *Two thumbs up!

 

[Fortitude]

Haven’t seen a young player being so overhyped in a long time. Almost like yous want him to fail. Hopefully he has the right mentality to fulfil the huge potential and doesn’t start thinking he’s the real deal already.

This is the path all prodigies walk along. Kobbie is in no way unique in this regard and whether the pressure crushes him or thrives in it is basically a footballing trope and we all know how it goes, to the positive and negative.

The cat was officially out of the bag with his Liverpool performance and subsequent call up after the fact. At that juncture, the whole country started talking about him and his talent is undeniable enough that there is now a clamour for him to be a NT starter at the Euros. I don't know where you think overhype comes into it; his debut season trajectory is the stuff of movies and the amount of 18-year olds who match his trajectory in this country since PL inception can be counted on one hand.

 

[Cnaiür urs Skiötha]

Haven’t seen a young player being so overhyped in a long time. Almost like yous want him to fail. Hopefully he has the right mentality to fulfil the huge potential and doesn’t start thinking he’s the real deal already.

That’s always the risk. We are so desperate because of the last decade and the media have been joining our choir of ridiculous praise.
Don’t get me wrong I really like what I’ve seen so far as he ticks some boxes we urgently need. Also credit to ten Hag for taking the risk and sticking with the boy.
However, thinking he should be our main midfielder in the short term or putting him on a level with Bellingham and Rice and talk about a Euro winning midfield is just pure nonsense.
He still is a kid!

 

[Raven]

That’s always the risk. We are so desperate because of the last decade and the media have been joining our choir of ridiculous praise.
Don’t get me wrong I really like what I’ve seen so far as he ticks some boxes we urgently need. Also credit to ten Hag for taking the risk and sticking with the boy.
However, thinking he should be our main midfielder in the short term or putting him on a level with Bellingham and Rice and talk about a Euro winning midfield is just pure nonsense.
He still is a kid!

There are players that come along every now and then that just strut into the mens game. Kobbie looks like one of those so far. Obviously he may well need more time to actually be in a competition winning midfield than this summer but he's taking the league by storm in a similar way to Rooney at 18, not that they're similar players but that's the level of talent I think he is. Perhaps I'm wrong about all of that but it's very fecking exciting having this type of talent breaking through, especially with a style we've always lacked.

 

[Josh 76]

Haven’t seen a young player being so overhyped in a long time. Almost like yous want him to fail. Hopefully he has the right mentality to fulfil the huge potential and doesn’t start thinking he’s the real deal already.

Sometimes you wish he wasn't English.

 

[izak]

Get his press resistant and ball control on everyone of our player we are gold again

 

[Offside]

Sometimes you wish he wasn't English.

100%

 

[bond19821982]

Haven’t seen a young player being so overhyped in a long time. Almost like yous want him to fail. Hopefully he has the right mentality to fulfil the huge potential and doesn’t start thinking he’s the real deal already.

The moment English press is involved, you literally don't have a choice. Especially if he is a Man United player.

You can only just hope he stays grounded .

 

[SuperiorXI]

Everyone seems to think he's a Real talent, with world class potential.

But I see a bin bag full of shite.

What am I missing?

Brains

 

[Rolaholic]

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[Red00012]

Missed training today due to illness

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Missed training today due to illness

Don’t think it would be the worst thing to leave him out the starting XI anyway.

He's 18, just started playing senior football and it’s been a whirlwind week for him. There’s a risk of putting too much on him too quickly. I’d have even left him in the England u21 squad personally.

 

[Red00012]

Don’t think it would be the worst thing to leave him out the starting XI anyway.

He's 18, just started playing senior football and it’s been a whirlwind week for him. There’s a risk of putting too much on him too quickly. I’d have even left him in the England u21 squad personally.

He could have been brought off earlier mid week also

 

[klayton88]

Missed training today due to illness

I saw him getting leathered last night in Belfast.

 

[Still ill]

I saw him getting leathered last night in Belfast.

Too soon, Klayton. Too soon.

 

[Mike Smalling]

I saw him getting leathered last night in Belfast.

Can’t wait to read the Players Tribune article!

 

[tenpoless]

Hopefully his ilness is just him a bit knackered. Been a long month for an 18 years old. And probably has a Calculus homework that he hasnt finished.

 

[lex talionis]

A superb talent, almost unimaginable how he has performed so brilliantly in a difficult position to master in a squad that is, to be honest, in shambles.

 

[Foolsgold21]

With 3 games this week, he can’t start all of them anyway following his England exploits.

I would save him for Chelsea and Liverpool assuming Casemiro is fit again

 

[dutchred]

With 3 games this week, he can’t start all of them anyway following his England exploits.

I would save him for Chelsea and Liverpool assuming Casemiro is fit again

Agree, I would give Mount a runout today. We need to see before the end of this seaon if he is an '8' or '10'

 

[Bwuk]

Agreed it’s possibly not the worst thing in the world if he misses today.

 

[SAF is the GOAT]

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