Kurt Zouma / 180 hours community service + banned from keeping cats for 5 years

[sglowrider]

88% of people that abuse children also abuse animals.

The old broken window theory.

 

[ChaddyP]

To be fair, animal abuse is also an everyday thing. I think it's a viscious circle to bemoan one cause due to your preferred one not getting the attention. That way you'd have been bemoaning sexual violence not getting enough attention when discussing racism. And others bemoaning terrorism not getting enough attention when discussing sexual violence. Sure, one can do it to beat their agenda drum, it's their right. But it seems to be a sign of a lack of unison really and in a way becomes an attempt to belittle another cause in favour of your own.

I can't disagree with what you have said. I just can understand where Antonio is coming from. I can also understand where others that absolutely love animals and are passionate about animal abuse feel like what Antonio said is not appropriate for what's happened.

 

[sglowrider]

I can't disagree with what you have said. I just can understand where Antonio is coming from. I can also understand where others that absolutely love animals and are passionate about animal abuse feel like what Antonio said is not appropriate for what's happened.

They are apples and oranges with the only commonality being violence or physical/emotional abuse.

 

[ChaddyP]

There are millions of black people in the UK though? This part seems odd to me. Classism is a far greater issue than racism in the UK, poor people are treated like dirt regardless of colour here. However, classism also isn't relevant so I'm not going to dive into it here, just as racism isn't relevant to this Zouma situation. I do agree with you that Kane would have had a greater backlash, I actually think the more prominent the figure, the greater the backlash as the worry is setting a bad example to a wide audience of young people that look up to these players.

I'm pretty sure there are less than 2 million people that identify as black within England most of which are probably in London. That's a small amount compared to the countries population that , well at least from my eyes seems predominantly white. Which is why I said most of the citizens wouldn't get racism like a black man would. How could They?

I myself find certain lived experiences of black people in the USA unrelatable as life in a predominantly black country is different to growing up in the usa. I find it hard to relate to what they are saying and I certainly don't see why it would be much different for majority of the UK to not be able to really understand racism through the lens of someone like say Antonio.

That's just a thought anyway. You're welcome to critique it.

 

[ChaddyP]

They are apples and oranges with the only commonality being violence or physical/emotional abuse.

Im definitely not here trying to compare animal abuse and racism. So please don't with me.

 

[MichaelRed]

I'm pretty sure there are less than 2 million people that identify as black within England most of which are probably in London. That's a small amount compared to the countries population that , well at least from my eyes seems predominantly white. Which is why I said most of the citizens wouldn't get racism like a black man would. How could They?

I myself find certain lived experiences of black people in the USA unrelatable as life in a predominantly black country is different to growing up in the usa. I find it hard to relate to what they are saying and I certainly don't see why it would be much different for majority of the UK to not be able to really understand racism through the lens of someone like say Antonio.

That's just a thought anyway. You're welcome to critique it.

The UK has lots of people of different colours though, so even if your figures are correct about 2 million black people, that doesn't mean that only 2 million people in the UK understand racism. The idea that only black people 'get' racism is archaic nonsense. Race, class, location, time-period & many other factors all impact on an individuals experience of racism.

 

[ChaddyP]

The UK has lots of people of different colours though, so even if your figures are correct about 2 million black people, that doesn't mean that only 2 million people in the UK understand racism. The idea that only black people 'get' racism is archaic nonsense. Race, class, location, time-period & many other factors all impact on an individuals experience of racism.

I actually didn't say that. I said that most won't see racism through the eyes of Someone like Antonio. I for sure don't but I'm also willing to learn.

 

[MichaelRed]

I actually didn't say that. I said that most won't see racism through the eyes of Someone like Antonio. I for sure don't but I'm also willing to learn.

What makes you think Antonio has any kind of extra level of enlightenment that you don't already have yourself?

 

[ChaddyP]

What makes you think Antonio has any kind of extra level of enlightenment that you don't already have yourself?

I didn't say he has some extra enlightenment, I said he sees things differently than most. For one I didn't think about his point till he mentioned it. I didn't even cross my mind . Which shows that he sees things differently than I would have. I didn't really think of his points where as for him it's directly on his mind.


Edit :


He clearly feels that response to racism doesn't compare to the response to animal abuse and clearly that bothers him. Bothers him more than it bothers others in here and that's all he seems to be trying to say.

 

[MichaelRed]

I didn't say he has some extra enlightenment, I said he sees things differently than most. For one I didn't think about his point till he mentioned it. I didn't even cross my mind . Which shows that he sees things differently than I would have. I didn't really think of his points where as for him it's directly on his mind.

Ok but you said you could learn from him. I just wonder what makes you think this? He's from a posh area in London, grew up wealthier than 95% of the nation, was in the system of football from age 12, is a multi-millionaire & has all the opportunity in the world. The worst kind of racism, in my opinion, is systematic racism that shuts down opportunites for minorities & pushes them into a lifestyle that they're then condemned for. Antonio will have experienced absolutely zero of this & probably has less of a grasp of racsim than you'll already have. Just because racism was on his mind doesn't mean he wasn't incredibly misguided in trying to bring race into the conversation about his teammate's cruelty to an animal. If McDonald's had been on his mind & he whipped out a "yeah, Zouma abused his cat and all but what about the rising price of the Big Mac?", that would have had just as little relevance as the comment he actually made.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

I’m not a fan of equivocation in moments like these because it causes the discourse to venture further from the actual issues.

It’s now become the discrimination olympics when infact kicking a cat is a fecking vile thing to do & racism is too. This isn’t an either or argument, as far as the game is concerned they should do better on both fronts.

I get what Antonio was saying, I just knew the second he did it wouldn’t actually raise awareness but subvert from the issues at hand. This thread is a prime example, we’ve got people whitesplaining to Michael Antonio about racism.

 

[ChaddyP]

Ok but you said you could learn from him. I just wonder what makes you think this? He's from a posh area in London, grew up wealthier than 95% of the nation, was in the system of football from age 12, is a multi-millionaire & has all the opportunity in the world. The worst kind of racism, in my opinion, is systematic racism that shuts down opportunites for minorities & pushes them into a lifestyle that they're then condemned for. Antonio will have experienced absolutely zero of this & probably has less of a grasp of racsim than you'll already have. Just because racism was on his mind doesn't mean he wasn't incredibly misguided in trying to bring race into the conversation about his teammate's cruelty to an animal. If McDonald's had been on his mind & he whipped out a "yeah, Zouma abused his cat and all but what about the rising price of the Big Mac?", that would have had just as little relevance as the comment he actually made.

Him growing up in a posh area in London doesn't really have much to do with what I've said. He is still a black man living in a predominantly non black country. While I live in a predominantly black country. My experiences are completely different to his matter how rich or poor he is. It's always gonna be different . I've come to learn this a very long time ago. I can learn alot from people like him.


And It still stands in my view that there are alot of people that don't see race the way someone like he would and instead of calling him a dick head maybe , just maybe there's something in what he's said. We may eventually not agree with it. But I don't exactly see what he said as completely bonkers.


Re your big Mac argument... I think if you had asked someone that was more passionate about say climate change or human rights abuse they probably might have said...yeh kicking the cat is awful but where's your energy when peoplr are being murdered in the streets in *insert name here *

And I honestly couldn't have much to say to that either

 

[hobbers]

Antonio whatabouted to racism because Zouma is his team mate and he wants the the media to think twice about criticising him or calling for more punishment. That's it.

And of course in these times it actually worked to a degree.

 

[MichaelRed]

Him growing up in a posh area in London doesn't really have much to do with what I've said. He is still a black man living in a predominantly non black country. While I live in a predominantly black country. My experiences are completely different to his matter how rich or poor he is. It's always gonna be different . I've come to learn this a very long time ago. I can learn alot from people like him.


And It still stands in my view that there are alot of people that don't see race the way someone like he would and instead of calling him a dick head maybe , just maybe there's something in what he's said. We may eventually not agree with it. But I don't exactly see what he said as completely bonkers.


Re your big Mac argument... I think if you had asked someone that was more passionate about say climate change or human rights abuse they probably might have said...yeh kicking the cat is awful but where's your energy when peoplr are being murdered in the streets in *insert name here *

And I honestly couldn't have much to say to that either

Where there's no doubt racism amongst black people over how light or dark their shade? Racism has been an issue for thousands of years, even statues in egypt have their noses smashed off so people wouldn't know such amazing creations were the works of black people, it's an issue as old as time itself & needs to keep being worked on tackling. However, I think that in this case instead of saying "hey maybe Antonio has a unique view we can learn from" he really should just be called out for making a ridiculous statement that detracts from both the issue he was being questioned about and detracts from the issue of racism. If people keep attributing everything to racism, it makes it a lot more difficult to actually tackle racism.

 

[Slysi17]

Honestly, whether its racisim or animal abuse, both are vile and people/authorities should come down hard on both of these things.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

If people keep attributing everything to racism, it makes it a lot more difficult to actually tackle racism.

He didn’t do this though.

He made a very poor attempt at equivocating the issues. I guess his nonsense breeds nonsense responses.

Both are terrible, yet that’s rarely been the argument today.

 

[The Boy]

Adding the fact that Zuma is black to the discussion adds nothing of value. Would the reaction be he same if Harry Kane kicked a cat? Definitely worse, as he is in a even greater position of power as the captain of England.

I personally agree with the bolded, but I also think PoC have an absolute right to question the way race plays a role in any public reaction and disagree that effectively checking for racism in any situation adds nothing of value.

Given the history of systemic racism in our society, I can understand PoC suspecting and correctly identifying racism in most circumtances. So to then see a large group of posters, who are not PoC and have never and will never experience racism, belittle that and try to bully that reaction out of the discussion is, I think, disgusting.

@MackRobinson initially entered this thread to say that the warning another poster got for suggesting that the reaction was racist was unfair. That's not claiming it was racist, it's not offering an excuse for animal abuse or any other rubbish that has been thrown around in this thread, it's a very fair point.

 

[The Boy]

What is exactly your problem? This is funny for you? Having a laugh?
You are example about perception of animal abuse in public. Go and make a joke in Greenwood's thread about domestic violence and see how quick you will be banned. Or Elanga's thread about racial abuse.
But here; all jokes are allowed

I don't get what your problem is? All I want to know is have you ever had a fight with a swan? .... too much to ask? too difficult to answer? I don't get it

 

[Rhyme Animal]

FFS…

1. Antonio wasn’t excusing Zouma - he made a point of saying he doesn’t condone it.

2. Antonio wasn’t saying that Zouma is getting it harsh because he’s black.

3. Antonio was questioning the reaction of the media in relation to how they react to racism (another form of abuse).

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

The same society that hits horses in races many people attend to bet on also. You will never see this sort of outrage there.

What zouma did was terrible but the reaction he is receiving is as a result of him being black.

I don't understand how what @KennyBurner said is so controversial that it should be marked as inappropriate.

There is no question that Western society, especially affluent white people seem to a) value the lives of domesticated animals more than a random human being b) tend to have more critical responses toward mistakes by black people. My family is West African, grew up poor, and never understood the concept of owning pets, so for them, the outrage is weirder than the misdeed. I know older black people in America who hate dogs because they were weaponized by the police in poor black communities. This is a more nuanced subject than just finger pointing.

Not that it matters but I think what Zouma did is shitty and I personally like pets but the posters engaging in whataboutism with regards to race shouldn't be grounds for banning. Thoughts like these are simply the reality of being a person of color in Western society.

Well done to you both, thanks to @The Boy I actually went back and read through what has been said in here. It truly is discouraging as a PoC what seems to draw moderation on this forum.

As an animal lover & PoC I’m so conflicted here because people are conflating points. I hate how race is always dismissed as an issue on here, see the Elanga thread but I don’t think kicking this cat has particularly been about race either but then again it’s so ingrained in society how could it not be.

Zouma’s brother has been suspended by his club on suspicion of his involvement. The issue I’m picking up from others is that they feel this issue is being drawn out in a disingenuous way, perhaps it’s because he’s black, perhaps it is not but suggesting the suggestion is ‘inappropriate’ & immediately shutting down that line of thinking isn’t progressive imo.

 

[MichaelRed]

Well done to you both, thanks to @The Boy I actually went back and read through what has been said in here. It truly is discouraging as a PoC what seems to draw moderation on this forum.

As an animal lover & PoC I’m so conflicted here because people are conflating points. I hate how race is always dismissed as an issue on here, see the Elanga thread but I don’t think kicking this cat has particularly been about race either but then again it’s so ingrained in society how could it not be.

Zouma’s brother has been suspended by his club on suspicion of his involvement. The issue I’m picking up from others is that they feel this issue is being drawn out in a disingenuous way, perhaps it’s because he’s black, perhaps it is not but suggesting the suggestion is ‘inappropriate’ & immediately shutting down that line of thinking isn’t progressive imo.

There's no perhaps about it, it's absolutely not because he's black and the suggestion is ridiculous. Also, funny to say "It truly is discouraging as a PoC what seems to draw moderation on this forum." as if the forum wasn't in meltdown over the Suarez & John Terry racist incidents. Seriously, get over the fact that not everything needs to have a racial connection. A white woman was literally fired from her job because footage showed her striking a horse recently. What about Mary Bale? Middle aged white women filmed putting a cat in a wheelie bin & there was a lynch mob for her that destroyed her life. There's nothing to even remotely suggest race has played a part in the reaction except for muppets trying to claim it has or may have. The reaction is because this is Britain & the general public find abuse of pets utterly abhorrent.

 

[Tarrou]

Oh my.


I did read the first sentence. Although I am for a free speech colours of a person have nothing to do with it. You defended the poster by going forward in that direction making it like some racist western cultural agenda people have.
What Zouma did is disgrace and so is West Ham for playing him. ”Playing” with animals by kicking them across the room is disgraceful. If people want to make that racial like some posters and players fine. You can always say there is some other more important issue and people should react more to those than abuse of animals. Why did Antonio take colour as example? Why not war? Climate warming? Gender equality?

because he was asked if Zouma should be banned from football and he was comparing it to something where people were banned

nobody has been banned from the PL for war or climate change

it's actually a pretty logical comparison to make under the premise his colleague deserves to lose his career

 

[Donaldo]

Bringing racism into this discussion has to be emblematic of modern day discourse.

If WHU had just handled this in house properly and made it clear that the player was under severe censure including time out from the game and rehabilitation, none of this nonsense would have followed. Moyes and the club are responsible for this now.

 

[ThierryFabregas]

Has anyone considered, what if the cat was really naughty on the lead up to this incident? Maybe it purposely had a dump in Kurt Zouma's bed or maybe it tore up all of his cigar collection. Why has no one asked these questions? Context people.

 

[FPL addict]

Has anyone considered, what if the cat was really naughty on the lead up to this incident? Maybe it purposely had a dump in Kurt Zouma's bed or maybe it tore up all of his cigar collection. Why has no one asked these questions? Context people.

Well you win another prize for clueless comment of the day. If you had the remotest of understanding of animals you would know that they do not cinciously do "naughty" things. They act due to instinct, environmental conditions, stress etc.

The concept of " punishing" an animal through physical violence has no context. It is 100% wrong. Every time.

 

[Cassidy]

Bringing racism into this discussion has to be emblematic of modern day discourse.

If WHU had just handled this in house properly and made it clear that the player was under severe censure including time out from the game and rehabilitation, none of this nonsense would have followed. Moyes and the club are responsible for this now.

He was fined 250k I think west ham handled it ok to be honest.

 

[Withnail]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Can’t believe Antonio thought it was a good idea to bring race into this. It’s not relevant.

West Ham have showed a clear lack of leadership on this. They should have nipped it in the bud but they’ve let it simmer and this could get bigger than it needed to be.

He hasn't been convicted of anything. The police and football authorities have done nothing so it's a red herring, isn't it?

As a non-white person I look at the gleeful reaction on social media when a boat full of asylum seekers dies, and then I compare it to the reaction on social media when a footballer kicks a cat. It does make you wonder about your place in society and how you're viewed.

Do you honestly think that these are the same people?

 

[SirScholes]

Has anyone considered, what if the cat was really naughty on the lead up to this incident? Maybe it purposely had a dump in Kurt Zouma's bed or maybe it tore up all of his cigar collection. Why has no one asked these questions? Context people.

What a bellend

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Has anyone considered that maybe the cat wanted to be kicked and may just enjoy being hit? Such a close minded lot we have here.

 

[Adisa]

Calls for him to be sacked are a fecking joke.

 

[Acheron]

Calls for him to be sacked are a fecking joke.

Other professionals have lost their job to similar incidents. It might seem over the top, and won't happen to him, but if he was indeed sacked I wouldn't feel bad for him.

 

[goptun]

He was fined 250k I think west ham handled it ok to be honest.

They did that a couple days after the event, following a half-arsed apology and subsequent swelling of public antipathy.

 

[AndySmith1990]

Calls for him to be sacked are a fecking joke.

People who work in privileged positions should face greater scrutiny than others.

 

[Adisa]

People who work in privileged positions should face greater scrutiny than others.

Yes, and he's been fined a fortune, lost sponsorship deals and custody of his pets.

 

[Bennie Blanco]

Has anyone considered that maybe the cat wanted to be kicked and may just enjoy being hit? Such a close minded lot we have here.

Maybe it wanted to identify as a football, ever thought of that?

 

[UpWithRivers]

Antonio whatabouted to racism because Zouma is his team mate and he wants the the media to think twice about criticizing him or calling for more punishment. That's it.

And of course in these times it actually worked to a degree.

Exactly this. This is simply a a tactic like used by politicians. Dont fall for it. Strawman argument tactics. One has nothing to do with the other. The fact he said it doesnt tell you that he has stronger beliefs against racism. It tells you he is downplaying the cat issue and defending his teammate and trying to trick the media and the public into another debate. Its disgusting tactics and should be condemned.

 

[Stacks]

Awful awful thread. Candidate for worst thread in 2022.
One idiot abused cat. Instead talking about problem of animal abuse in society, WH reaction, FA, Uefa, Zouma, his brother etc....few people made this whole thread about racism. Nice job guys. Can you now get the feck off from this thread and let us, who actually care for this topic, to talk about it?

is it awful just because people don't agree with your point of view? Kirkland (white) is the one who brought racism into it lad. Just because you are uncomfortable with the possibility, everyone should "feck off?" childish

This thread is pretty insane.

*Player kicks cat and slaps it to the floor*

Rightfully condemned

*Bizarre question of rough play*

Called out

*Edgy contrarians enter*

Mostly ignored

*Can’t have opinion on cat kicking if you ate in KFC*

….

*Racism*

…..


Absolutely bizarre and definitely the worst thread going right now.

why is it the worst thread? Some legitimate questions in there especially around our selective care about animal abuse

Absolutely embarrassing thread. Some scumbag abuses his pets and the thread turns into a debate about racism. Are you not capable of sticking to the subject? Do you have to bring racism into every thread?

A white man (Kirkland) first brought race into it but you are not ready for that conversation

 

[Stacks]

Exactly this. This is simply a a tactic like used by politicians. Dont fall for it. Strawman argument tactics. One has nothing to do with the other. The fact he said it doesnt tell you that he has stronger beliefs against racism. It tells you he is downplaying the cat issue and defending his teammate and trying to trick the media and the public into another debate. Its disgusting tactics and should be condemned.

Kirkland first made the comparison to racism and how the FA act faster so Antonio latched onto that and claimed people are calling for far severe punishment compared to racism.

 

[tenpoless]

Has anyone considered, what if the cat was really naughty on the lead up to this incident? Maybe it purposely had a dump in Kurt Zouma's bed or maybe it tore up all of his cigar collection. Why has no one asked these questions? Context people.

It almost like you are trying to drag humans intelligence and common sense to the same level of a cat's.

 

[RedRoach]

Personally don't get the point Antonio is trying to make. If a footballer was caught on video on Instagram or any other social media performing any kind of act of racism he or she would be equally cancelled and the social media reaction would have been most likely more than the reaction to the cat incident and rightly so. Is he trying to say this wouldn't have happened if the controversy was about race?