pique should be put down
La Liga 2018/19
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Even if they do it may take a few years for two of them to develop by which time Busquets will need replacing anyway.
Yeah, as well as he's done in the league he isn't a good fit. Their football is very Italian without having a great defence. Like a Mish mash between styles.
Spot on. During roughly first two thirds of the last season it actually seemed to make sense because their 4-4-2 really was tight at the back and conceded very little (even though it had a lot to do with luck and Ter Stegen playing out of his mind). It fell apart though. They are missing Umtiti, he was by far their best CB last season.
One thing I just don't get is how in god's name anyone who watches them week in week out (which I guess at least some of their board members do) can actually be satisfied with this and actively work on extending Valverde...It just seems crazy, he's hardly going to have a swarm of offers. Wait until the end of the season and then evaluate.
Valverde is a poor man’s Mourinho, and I’m talking about 2018 Mourinho.
Fair point, bit i don't think they would have some better. The goat is just the goat.
If you take the best player ever out of your team, particularly when he's probably the best passer, dribbler, creator and goalscorer in the world, obviously it's going to make a massive difference. They rely on Messi to make the difference in every game, in every conceivable way, but particularly creatively. If he ever has a mediocre game, or doesn't play, there's a very good chance that Barca will lose. I expected them to lose against Sevilla. They don't know what to do when they haven't got him.
think Pique, Coutinho and Malcolm won't be here next season and neither will Valverde, even if he wins the double in the end and I'm still pretty sure they'll easily beat Sevilla in return leg. it's just that there's no real progress even after all this time and this year they don't even have that solid defence to brag about like last year. he's lucky that Atletico aren't more consistent and Madrid turned to shit.
Do you believe that’s normal when they have a much better squad than 99% of opponents even when Messi doesn’t play? A front 3 of Dembele, Coutinho and Suarez should be running over teams.
Why should they depend on him then? Why do they force the attack to go through him and look out of ideas when he isn’t there?
It was stupid when the same thing happened with Argentina but somewhat understandable, but with the best squad in the world??? Really?
Messi to the rescue next week. But with a goal, Seville are basically through.
Exactly my thoughts. You would think he plays with some farmers. Suarez is arguably the best striker of his generation. Coutinho is a class player as is Dembele and the rest of the squad. They shouldn't be depending on Messi to beat Sevilla. If anything it shows that having Messi on your team can have it's detriments since everything flows through him so much and he runs everything that the squad maybe haven't practiced or trained to play enough without him against teams they have more than enough quality to dispose of with ease.
They play with Malcom, who has 1 league start all season, and Boateng, who was signed to lighten up the dressing room, upfront, throw in an academy kid into midfield, in a Cup game which they are clearly not taking seriously anymore after winning 4 Copas in a row and the Messi brigade is already out full guns blazing: "I KNEW IT ALL ALONG, BARCA WITHOUT MESSI = CARDIFF CITY".
So true
Even the best teams lose sometimes and Sevilla away is a very tough match for everyone
I still expect Barca to go through, Sevilla regularly shit themselves in tough away games against Barca / Real and it could end as an easy 3-0 when Messi and Suarez play.
Messi - the only player in history that is so good that it makes his team worse.
For some no reasoning is too ridiculous to not albring it up.
I am not saying it is true in Messi's case. Fact is there are some great players who have an unbalancing effect on the team sometimes. Ibra, Alexis, Ozil, Coutinho - just a small sample of players with great skill and negative effect on team performance in some cases.
You would think that they would perform better given the players that they have. I think it's a psychological issue, as well as technical. Obviously Messi is decisive for them in many ways, and when he's not there somehow they lose faith in what they're doing. If a player is that decisive for you as often as he is, when he's not there it is perhaps natural that you miss him on a psychological level, quite aside from the fact that you're also losing the best technical player in the world, and in my opinion the greatest ever, who has also scored 577 goals for them.
They are still a good team on paper, and should still obviously beat Leganes at home without Messi, but they don't cope well without him. They've just had three games without him, they lost two, and they were drawing with Leganes until he came on and almost instantly won the game for them.
In terms of Argentina, anyone that watched their games would inevitably conclude that they were just a dreadful team in the recent World Cup. Just defensively alone they were shambolic. They could have had Messi and Ronaldo, and they still would have come nowhere near winning it. They were at least four players short of a team that could compete at the highest level. If you have no decent central midfield and a very poor defence, and get torn to shreds in the manner that they did, you won't compete at the highest level. They played both finalists in the tournament, and conceded 7 goals. It's a minor miracle that France only beat them 4-3, they just are way, way better. That's why they were called the worst Argentina team ever, despite having the best player ever (or at the very least, the best player in the world):
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44575673
It's not a psychological problem, it's a tactical one. Argentina had more than enough quality to be a much better team than they were, it's not about if they have the quality to win the World Cup or not, it's about performing as a team to the standard of the quality of players they have.
Both teams failed to take full advantage of the quality of players they have, both teams looked one dimensional and clueless offensively as soon as Messi stepped off the pitch and become too reliant on him to create when he's on the pitch.
I do believe that as good as Messi is, to build a team around him in order to get the best out of everyone you need a fantastic offensive manager who can limit his involvement and give a bigger and more specific role to the other forwards.
Still disagree. In some cases this may be true if it is a highly polarizing personality that unbalances a team, like Ibra at certain points during his career. In the others it is a question of the tactical system. You can't blame a top star for all his team mates searching for him. There's a reason why Pep's Barca was never that dependent on Messi.
At times you see what potential slumbers in the current Barca, exemplarily the beautiful team play goal between Suarez, Coutinho and Arthur and you can see that this team has CL winning quality even without Messi. But there's no system behind it that allows it to reproduce this stuff on a regular basis. You can't blame the players for that unless you expect them to fire the coach or held the training sessions on their own.
Hopefully there is gonna be another shock today (well, not so much, considering the seeason Real Madrid are having).
Valverde should be doing better with the squad, there's no doubt about that IMO. There are a wave of Barca fans who plead for him to get fired. He's a decent coach, but he simply can't get the best out of this selection of players.
Also kind of odd to rest Messi for the league game, then also drop him entirely for the Copa game. They've just had a fortnight off. :S
Also kind of odd to rest Messi for the league game, then also drop him entirely for the Copa game. They've just had a fortnight off. :S
Amazing how you bend arguments in a certain way and mix them with valid claims until the actually quite absurd idea of blaming Messi for an underwhelming team performance in a game he didn't even play in sounds like a reasonable thing to say.
It is indeed quite impressive how you prepare claims like that for dozens of post until you finally get to the point you actually wanted to make from the very beginning. Almost like some kind of long-term marketing sales funnel.
What's incredible is that you actually read what I wrote and concluded I was blaming Messi rather than Valverde. Truly remarkable really.
Try to actually answer to what I write next time rather than the old propaganda shite of attacking me as a poster, cheers. What's wrong with what I wrote there? What do you disagree with?
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Well, if it's a tactical problem then tell me how Barcelona can have Ter Stegen, Roberto, Pique, Vermaelen, Alba, Busquets, Arthur, Alena, Dembele, Suarez and Coutinho on the pitch against Leganes, and still they had to bring Messi off the bench to win the game for them. I mean, you would expect that team to beat Leganes at home regardless of tactics, would you not?
BTW it's just my opinion that it's psychological, but I think when teams lose someone who is their catalyst, and no-one has been a bigger catalyst than Messi, it just has a debilitating psychological effect. I'm sure it has been the same for Real Madrid without Ronaldo. Another example would be Man United without Cantona in that era. That just then amplifies the effect of losing their best player as well.
No, that's not how football works. If the tactics aren't good then they aren't getting the best out of those players. They should be beating them easily, they aren't because they have no offensive plan.
You give the example of Madrid without Ronaldo or United without Cantona when there are thousands of examples of it not happening and plenty other variables at play. Portugal lost Ronaldo and won the Euros final, Barcelona spent years having a great record when Messi didn't play, Madrid had a very good record when Ronaldo didn't play, etc.
They look like crap now because they force attacks through Messi when he's on the pitch and have no plan B when he isn't. Messi should be a cog in the machine rather than be the whole machine.
Only with the implicit part. Is it hard to build a attacking team around Messi? Yes. Is Messi a special case in that regard? No. Every team needs a top manager nowadays, otherwise they are overwhelmed by sides which are strong collectively. Messi is more of a cheat code for average managers. Well, actually he's a cheat code for all managers but whatever.
By the way, what are your thoughts on Real Madrid's state now that Ronaldo is gone? They are an even bigger train wreck now that the target point of all their attacks is gone. Surely you think that you need a fantastic offensive manager to build a team around him, too?
Wait, don't answer. I'm not really interested in beginning this discussion again. I only think somebody should point out that you again nonchalantly tried to direct the blame towards Messi after a game in which he didn't even play in. Somehow you twist and turn arguments until playing incredibly well is actually bad thing for the team. As I said, amazing resilience.
Only a completely bonkers fanboy as yourself would take any hint of criticism about what I wrote. It's incredible how defensive and offended you got over absolutely nothing.
Did you actually read a single word of what I wrote? Madrid look like shit offensively because their forwards are crap. They aren't playing a 350 million attack of Coutinho, Dembele and Luis Suarez upfront for fecks sake.
Ronaldo in Madrid with the right tactics being used by Zidane made everyone around him look better due to his adaptibility and the diversity in which Madrid could attack, the likes of Isco, Asensio, Lucas, etc. had very specific roles that played to their strengths. That's not happening in Barcelona. Not because it's impossible to do it while building hte team around Messi instead, it's harder for sure but I'm sure if someone like Guardiola was the manager he'd fix it.
How many posts do we get here about the best squad in the world being shit and Messi having to carry Barcelona? It's the same nonsense we've been hearing about Argentina for years too, then you're the one to complain about marketing and propaganda...
Anyway, I was obviously criticizing Valverde. Not Messi.
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Valverde needs sacking, Barca will also one day realise that, not good enough.
Ramos has now scored something like 5 Panenka penalties in a row and the goalkeepers still refuse to stay in the middle
Defensive lapses aside, if we could only finish we'd be a really good side
Llorente
It is not just the finishing. When you look at the xGs at http://www.understat.com you see that you produce a lot chances but nearly no good chances.Defensive lapses aside, if we could only finish we'd be a really good side
Vinicius is a beast
We managed to give them the penalty to end all penalties. Nacho fouls Llorente from behind, who throws his arms out and hits the ball. I still can't quite believe that really happened
Oh well. Ramos was broke out the cape tonight
. Also Vinicius is so, so, so thrilling anytime he's on the ball, he just looks dangerous. More importantly, the defenders are already scared of him
Benzema, if he only he could score a bit more consistently... he's having a very good season
Oh well. Ramos was broke out the cape tonight
. Also Vinicius is so, so, so thrilling anytime he's on the ball, he just looks dangerous. More importantly, the defenders are already scared of himBenzema, if he only he could score a bit more consistently...
he's having a very good seasonI agree. Vinicius is very funny and has a very good attitude.We managed to give them the penalty to end all penalties. Nacho fouls Llorente from behind, who throws his arms out and hits the ball. I still can't quite believe that really happened
Oh well. Ramos was broke out the cape tonight
Benzema, if he only he could score a bit more consistently...
I'm looking forward to seeing the connection with Rodrygo
We are playing better lately.Pintus?
Hi not sure if this is the right place to post this but I’ll be in Madrid for the Real V Athletico match on the 10th Feb & just wondered if anyone had any good tips on how to get tickets etc? Or failing that good bars to watch it in,
Thanks!
Thanks!
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If Suarez took penalties, freekicks and corners he’d have more goals and more assists in La Liga than both Messi and Ronaldo since his debut.
He’s clumsy on the ball at times though
Has scored 4 (four) goals in 23 apps in Europe since the summer of 2016. Considering the relative value you assign to the CL and your opinion that it would be a disaster for Barcelona if it doesn't win it this year, surely he should have been already replaced with someone who can do better?
Who can do better? There’s no one close to being available who is anywhere near his level.
Even without scoring he comes up with great performances more often than not.
4 in 23 is still poor but plenty of those are not big matches at all (16 groupstage matches if I’m not mistaken) and that’s a carefully picked amount of games to make him look as bad as possible. Suarez has a superb record for Barcelona in big games, both domestically and in Europe.
I was the one arguing he’d still be starting for Barcelona this season while the opinions here were that he was finished and Barcelona had to replace him. Go to last year’s La Liga thread and search for ‘Suarez’.
Wait until he goes two games in a row without scoring or misses a big chance and he’ll be getting called shit again.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/la-liga-2017-18.430371/page-200#post-22527282
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/la-liga-2017-18.430371/page-71#post-21685936
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Who can do better that 4 in 23? As a guaranteed starting central striker in Barcelona? Seriously? Better question would probably be who could do worse, and it would take some doing...
The only reason I picked 2016 is because 2015/16 was comfortably his best season, after which he started tailing off fairly obviously. Criticising him for anything before that would be moronic, because he actually was superb. At this time it's painfully obvious that he is nowhere near the player he was 2.5 years ago, whether he's still top 5, 10, 20 whatnot I don't really care TBH.
Now for the starting argument, I'm not saying that he shouldn't start, or that he is bad. When he is clicking, I feel he is still the best clear #9. Thing is, he is clicking less and less often, and his "base" performance level has dropped off steeply. The way you rave about him, one would think he's still on the level that made him probably the only player in Barcelona since 2006 or so for whom a legitimate claim could be made that he has outperformed Messi over the scope of a single season (2015/16) whereas it is completely obvious that he is nowhere near.