La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - 1st Rd Enigma_87/Snow vs Tuppet

[Marty1968]

Please remember that players should only be judged by their performances in their assigned leagues for this draft (not career peak)

vs
Team Enigma/Snow.............................................................vs..............................................Team Tuppet

 

[Marty1968]

Enigma_87/Snow Tactics

Player profiles:

GK and defence: Van der Sar, Marcelo, Michel Salgado, Lucio, Helmer
Midfield - Antonio Conte, Luka Modric
Midfield - Bernd Schneider, Kaka
Attack - Gianluca Vialli, David Villa

System is a bit of a lopsided diamond 4-4-2 formation interchanging to 5-3-2 or 4-3-3 depending off or on the ball. Our team is set up with Marcelo on the left flank who is very similar to his predecessor R.Carlos and arguably in peak form close to him in terms of quality(in attacking sense for sure). He's playing his natural Real Madrid position here, providing width and being a genuine attacking asset when we're in possession but also keeping tabs on the opposition right side. On the other side of the pitch we have another legendary Real full back - Michel Salgado, winner of 2 CL titles being absolute starter during the galactico era. His never say die attitude, great fighting spirit and touch tackling will be of great use for us with also an occasional crosses from the right and combining with Schneider up front. In the heart of the defence we have Luciowho is one of the best defenders in the 21 century succeeding pretty much everywhere he played - tall, strong and excellent tackler but also a leader he'll neutralize aerial dangers and also those on the ground. Thomas Helmer is his partner in defence - tough strong world class defender who spent most of his club career with Borussia Dortmund and Bayern Munich, and won the EURO in 1996, forming a perfect left-right CB pairing (LvG would be proud). Both will be responsible of stopping Tuppet's attackers and also neutralizing them in the air, considering probably Tuppet's use of the flanks.

In midfield we have Juve's captain Antonio Conte who is a true leader on the pitch and played as if he was a coach on the field, constantly dictating teammates around. Excellent tough tackler with also a goal in him he'll provide our team with defensive cover and occassionally can spring forward. If Marcelo goes forward he'll provide him with the needed cover on the left and watch for his zone if there is man to man disadvantage on the left to equal things up. Alongside him we have 2 midfield dynamos in Luca Modric and Bernd Schneider. Both are excellent in both phases - offence and defence. They also would combine pretty well (they don't call Bernd Schneider the white Brazillian for noting - has excellent technique) and look for their team mates, provide additional width on the left(Modric) and right (Schneider) and also having a great work rate and team work would give us the ball back.

Our midfield will press the opponent when off the ball to get it back, as all our midfielders can participate in the defensive line. We won't play too deep or too high defensive line, rather medium one, but having a team full of versatile players with high work rate I expect our team to push Tuppet's side most of the time and generally take control of possession. We haven't set up with a typical destroyer at DM because I don't think we need one in this draft and it's important to have someone like Conte who will occupy that zone, who can also combine well with Modric and Schneider(who both put great shift in defence) and generally be able to control possession, rather than only break up play. Modric is the one who will have the biggest responsibilities in midfield as he'll have pretty much the same role as in Real. He's extraordinary midfielder who really is in a class of his own and with his excellent dribbling ability and technique and close control he can burst forward both through the middle or left wing(when in possession) and combine with Marcelo as he does at Real. Bernd Schneider is also a special type of midfielder who will be RCM for this one and will pretty much occupy the zone on the right central midfield to the right flank.

Up the park we have Kaka who is the best player on the pitch and truly unstoppable in his prime who will be our key player in a free AM role to do what he does best - supply Vialli and Villa but also finish himself. Our strike partnership is Villa - one of the best goalscorers in Spain of all time (leading national team goal scorer as well) and Vialli a truly special player in his peak. Both our CF's will combine well and form a real magic triangle with Kaka behind them with the option to roam around and interchange. Highly mobile forwards with excellent technique, killer instinct and great finishers they will also press Nadal and Ferrara as the former is known for his lapses of concentration during his career.

Our main strengths and why we will win:

Well rounded and balanced team - we have a back four that is well rounded in the center with a nice complimentary partnership of two strong and excellent in the air defenders, 2 full backs who can also contribute forward (Marcelo more in attack, Salgado in defence) who will be protected by Conte and one ofModric/Schneider on either flank. Schneider/Salgado is a great fit as when we have the ball Schneidercan provide natural width and when off it (probably Tuppet will concentrate on the flanks) both have great work rate and would provide protection if we're outnumbered there(if not Schneider will be tucked in helping in central midfield). Modric/Conte/Schneider trio is a well rounded midfield with a high work rate, excellent passing range(both short and long) and in the same time provides a lot of creativity from the center. Our attacking trio Vialli/Kaka/Villa is arguably the best in the draft in the first round.

Kaka - best player on the pitch IMO. Speed demon in his prime, who can decide every game and that has proven it in the past to give his best at the biggest stage.

Kaka/Vialli/Villa - IMO that attack is just too good for Tuppet's backline.

Creativity - needless to say when you have Modric, Kaka, Schneider, Villa and Vialli this team has plenty of creativity which would make it tough for Tuppet to localize and neutralize our creative options with his probably two DM's that he would field in Eilts and De Rossi. We just have too many options to focus only on getting the ball to Kaka.

Solid backline - IMO Helmer/Lucio is the better CB pairing and matched well to neutralize Tuppet's attacking threats - both on the ground(given their positional sense, quick response and tackling abilities) and in the air.

Tuppet's weak point - has to be Nadal in the heart of defence. Part of the dream team, Cruyff's Barca didn't rely much on their backline but to outscore the opponent. Nadal was really not that good in defending. After the drubbing Barca received from Milan in CL he didn't recover too well in the 94 WC being send off in his first game after just 25 mins and then playing part in midfield being pushed out of CB by Abelardo and Hierro. In his first season when Barca won the CL he was pushed out of the team by Nando and was reinstated after the latter was sold the same year. He was introduced again at half time in the 5-0 drubbing they received from Real in El Classico and later in his career again he was sent off in the SF in the CWC against Fiorentina. He was more of a enforcer rather than great defender and relied on physical qualities and stamina that made him quite versatile and used in midfield as well. Little example of his defensive qualities:


Also a few points to back up my claim for Barca defence at the time.
93/94 season - 42 goals conceded.
94/95 season - 45 goals conceded.
95/96 season - 39 goals conceded.
96/97 season - 48 goals conceded.
97/98 season - 56 goals conceded(for relevance only Tenerife, Compostela and Gijon conceded more).

And here Nadal is up against Villa, Vialli and Kaka.

Potential conflict in roles and/or lack of creativity- I'm not sure how exactly will Tuppet set up, but Balakov and Riquelme are quite alike and occupy the same zones as #10 playmakers. Balakov was great in the magical trio at Stuttgart where he played off Bobic and Elber in front of DM Soldo and another box to box midfielder. Pretty much the same can be said for Riquelme and he needs the same set up to flourish. If Tuppet leaves Bala on the bench and fields De Rossi and Eilts in midfield he'd have defensive steel but little creativity bar Riquelme who is not known as one of the most mobile or fast playmakers out there. Pressing him and eliminating the option receive and release the ball quickly can isolate his forwards and cut their source of creativity.

 

[Marty1968]

Tuppet Tactics

Tactical setup & instructions -

• 4-3-3 or 4-2-1-3 with 2 defensive midfielders in De Rossi and Eilts to counter the formidable central threat of our opponents.
  
  
• Two disciplined, defensively solid and energetic midfielders who can both slot in defense allows Riquelme to be his lazy magician self, and also allows my wing backs to bomb forward.
  
  
• When in possession, Riquelme would be playing in a typical Egnache role, drawing defenders to him and using his brilliant passing to get the ball to my on rushing forwards.
  
  
• Laudrup would look to provide extra creativity from left side and is instructed to cut inside and use his magical dribbling to run at defense, while providing overlaps to Roberto Carlos.
  
  
• Caniggia would look to provide a direct attacking threat with his pace. He would latch on to passes played in front and leave his marker with his speed.
  
  
• Relatively deeper defensive line to make sure defenders don’t get caught with Kaka’s pace.
  
  
• Play on counter and use the pace and quality on wings to attack quickly.
  
  
• Stay tight in middle areas, with 2 great CDMs and fantastic CB pairing, while attacking with pace and numbers in wide areas.

The Cafe demands answers -

I would try to anticipate the most commonly asked questions in the thread and answer them here -

Q. Where is the creativity going to come from ? When the opposition midfield would eat Riquelme, how would your team even function ?

A. Few points on this -

1. Taming and nullifying Riquelme on song completely is easier said than done, esp after we have provided him a great platform to function. Later in the match thread I’ll post the video of him owning the likes of Makelele. I know he divides opinions but Riquelme has been a great player in big tournaments and is the best passer on the pitch. Despite of his Penalty miss his performance in Champions league with Villarreal was fantastic. He had the most assists in world cup before an idiotic substitution caused Argentina to lose game and while quality in Liberetadoros is not the same as in Europe, it is a more grueling competition and his performance there is considered legendary. He would especially relish his connection with Caniggia. He is also the player on the pitch most likely to send a defense splitting pass to my forwards.
   
   
2. Lets say he is somehow nullified, I have another extremely creative player in Brian Laudrup who would take over as the creative hub of the team. While Brian is not the visionary playmaker his elder brother was, he is not far from him and is one of the greatest dribbler of all time. He had no problems pinging pin point passes from deep as well, again I would post video evidence of it in the thread itself.
   
   
3. And in my counter strategy I don’t really have to have great audacious passes from the deep to by pass opponents midfield and land on my strikers feet. I have great ball carriers in Roberto Carlos and Javier Zanetti and my wide forwards. Who would use their speed and dribbling to take the ball forward and create chances.
   
   
4. Carlos and Zanetti crossing from deep is another option for Voller who was great in air.

Q. Have you seen opposition attack ? Kaka, Villa, Vialli, how could you possibly hope for a win ?

A. My opponents definitely have a great attack, and while Villa can drift wide and Kaka can dribble wide, it is still a predominantly central attack. Our team has set up to stop them rampaging in the central areas. We have put 2 great defensive midfielders with 2 fantastic defenders behind them to counter this threat. Combine this with 2 full backs of highest quality and my defense should be able to hold its own against even the best of attacks.

On the other hand I have multiple ways to attack especially in wide areas, from Laudrup’s technical dribbling ability and great finishing, Voller’s all round striker work, Caniggia’s pace and directness or Riquelme’s maverick vision my team can create and finish multiple chances.

Q. De Rossi & Eilts doesn’t seem like the most complimentary partnership, what would be their roles and why have you chosen two defensive midfielders instead of starting Balakov who not only has great technical ability but also has incredible work rate ?

A. Its a tactical decision in that I don’t only need work rate behind Riquelme, but also need midfielders who are disciplined defensively and won’t just go bombing forward. Its clear that my best players are my wingbacks which is why they are my 1st and 2nd picks. With no great wide threat from our opponents, we might as well utilize them fully. Having 2 midfielders who can slot in defense allows them freedom to attack in wide areas where my opponent is relatively weaker. The idea is to take the game away from midfield area where opposition is stronger, and to the wide areas where our team is definitely better.

As for roles, De Rossi would be the all action aggressive ball winning midfielder, while Eilts would be more about positioning and discipline.

Q. Who is this Eilts fella and why should we believe that he would be able to hold on against such impressive attack ?

A. 1. Well to begin with you should read my write up on the Eilts here.

2. Eilts has held his own against some world class attacks, be it Maradona’s Napoli or Bayern or fantastic teams in Euro 96

3. Finally I know what everybody wants to listen, so yeah lets all ask Balu

Q. Why pick Caniggia, when you can pick someone like Tevez or Trezgol?

A. Again I’ll urge you to read my write up on Caniggia here , their plenty of evidence to suggest he is at least as good a forward as any of the mentioned in question. But he also fits tactically very seamlessly and his speed and directness provide a different dimension to my attack. He would make sure that the left back would not be able to move forward and provide width. Actually scratch that, I don’t see Marcelo staying defensively solid on him and not attacking. This would definitely lead to a few attacks on my right side with Zanetti providing support behind him.

Q. Any other threats ?

A. I think set pieces is another interesting aspect of my attack. In Roberto Carlos and Riquelme I have 2 world class free kick takers (probably the 2 best on the pitch) and against a rather shaky goalkeeper (Van Der Sar in Juventus) that could be another route to a goal. Ok this is interesting, I have a brilliant goalkeeper in Zubi, one of the best Spanish goal keeper along with Casillas. He was a Spanish player of the year as well. His connection and proven partnership with Nadal should also help in my defense. While Van der sar is a United legend, there is plenty of evidence that he was not at his best at Juve. Here are the 2 neutral articles first one claiming that he was one of Juventus worst signing -http://www.goal.com/en/news/7180/ga...t-20-/edwin-van-der-sar-juventus-1999/5#photo and the second one putting him in Juventus worst XI - http://www.blackwhitereadallover.com/2009/12/27/2837215/the-juventus-offsides-worst-xi-of-the-decade. I know goalkeeper are not hold to much in drafts but this should definitely count for something.

Here is a little excerpt from the book Soccer Men

Q. Modric can go left and Schneider can go right, opposition team actually does have width, so why would you claim you would win in the wide areas ?

A. There is no doubt that Enigma/Snow have created a great diamond (at least thats what I think they would play). But Diamond does suffer from lack of width, no question about it. Modric at his la liga best has always played through central areas. Even if their central midfielders can operate in wide areas, its different kind of width then wingers or wide forwards provide. They would not stay in wide areas to receive ball and stretch my defense, they would most likely going to receive the ball in middle and drift toward wide ares. They are not the fastest players and would face 2 fantastic wing backs, who theoretically should have no problem in handling them, winning the ball and start a counter. They have faced the best wingers in the world and prevailed mostly. On the other hand my wide players are rapid, great dribblers and stay wide to receive passes from my central players and then drift inwards, counting on support from rampaging wing backs. I think on both quality and quantity I should dominate on wings.


Finally League break down -

Serie A -
Zanetti (Arg)
Ferrara (Ita)
De Rossi (Ita)
Caniggia (Arg)

La Liga -
Riquelme (Arg)
Nadal (Spa)
R. Carlos (Bra)
Zubizarreta (Spa)

Bundesliga -
Voller (Ger)
Laudrup (Den)
Eilts (Ger)
Balakov (Sub) (Bul)

Best of luck Enigma and Snow.

 

[Marty1968]

@Rado_N can you make a poll for us as always?

Who will win with player peaks in the specified leagues (not career peaks)?
Team Enigma_87/Snow
Team Tuppet

Cheers Rado!

 

[Enigma_87]

Good luck
@Tuppet let's have a nice game here.

 

[Rado_N]

Poll added.

 

[Enigma_87]

Right off the bat I see some concern with our wide areas.

Bernd Schneider is perfectly capable of providing width on the right, he has great technical skills and has played all over the midfield, being mainly a creator rather than goal scorer. He can dribble past opponents like he shown in that WC final and also provide crucial assists.
Here are some great videos of his game:

as for Modric here is a good example taken from the profile description:

The qualities that come together to make the above pass happen each deserve mention–Modric’s first touch keeps the ball under control so that he can use his body to hold off the man just behind him. He then dribbles into exactly the right area of space to give him room to make the pass so that the onrushing defender can’t break the pass up before it gets to the Madrid striker. Once Modric has the ball in the right position, he then has to weight the ball correctly and place it in an area where the striker can pick it up and run with it–and this is about a 35 yard pass that he is hitting on the run with a defender bearing down on him.

And Modric does this sort of thing routinely. But he also is able to pick up the ball in more advanced positions and run directly at the defense. The clip below shows this aspect of his game:

With low center of gravity and excellent close control he does this routinely.

There is also no concern in pace in our squad IMO. We have very energetic players with good bursts of pace and in Lucio and Helmer reaction at the backline with Kaka probably the fastest with the ball on the pitch.

When Tuppet's team is in possession we will press his players as our frontline is mobile enough with great stamina too make it hard for him to get the ball to Riquelme and cutting off the support for his attacking trio.

I do feel that Eilts and De Rossi while being a great set up for Riquelme to shine lack the creativity from deep and Riquelme who is not one of the most mobile players requires feeding him with balls.

We don't intend to man mark Riquelme out of the game, hence not going with a pure destroyer of a DM, with a central core of Modric/Schneider/Conte we have the needed steel in midfield, ability to also press him before he made his first touch and also cover a lot of ground.

Tuppet's side will try to look for creativity outside the middle area, but they still have to score which I think will be hard for Voller as their only prolific attacker.

On other hand we have an attacking trio of Vialli, Villa and Kaka who in their respective peaks have scored and assisted a lot as we don't rely only on Kaka to be our main creator.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Beautiful diamond @Enigma_87 @Snow , and although I rate @Tuppet 's defence to be really world class, the diamond seems perfect to limit the amount of space Riquelme gets and call him out on his lack of work ethic. The way I see it this match will have Tuppet trying to get possession and playing very wide trying to use Zanetti and R.Carlos, while Enigma/Snow will have the killer counter attacks that will be a clash of titans against that defence and it could really go either way.
I'm thinking this to be a draw, with maybe Enigma/Snow having more chance to break the deadlock.

 

[Tuppet]

Best of luck @Enigma_87 @Snow

 

[Tuppet]

Nadal weak link

Here are some excerpt from an article from highly respect Sid Lowe, I dint even post it thought its not really required -

Alex Ferguson may have chased Laurent Blanc half way round Europe, but long before the Frenchman arrived at Old Trafford, there was another centre-back even more highly coveted by Manchester United.

That man was Miguel Ángel Nadal - the "Beast of Barcelona" as the British tabloids dubbed him - and on the eve of Real Mallorca's Champions League debut he's revealed to Guardian Unlimited just how close he came to signing for United.

"I was on the verge of signing [in 1996]," he admitted. "I had one foot and a half in Manchester. Everything with United was fine and I was ready to move, but there were problems with Barça and at the last minute they refused to let me leave."

"I would have liked to play in England," he added. "The grounds there have a special character which is different to Spain, and I've got very good memories of Wembley, even though we lost there in Euro 96.

"I had other offers later, but going at 20-odd is one thing, it's different when you're older and you've got a family."

Tonight, Nadal will have the opportunity to judge how he might have measured up.

As befits a man with five league championships, a European Cup and over 50 caps, Nadal won't be losing sleep over the Arsenal forward line. "I respect Henry," he grins, nonchalantly chewing gum, "but scared? Not at all."

Apart from that Nadal doesn't give much away. He is very relaxed and friendly, but there is a touch of the Alan Shearers about him - I never thought I'd hear "take each game as it comes" in Spanish but there it was.

Despite Mallorca's small club status, the man from Manacor on the east of the island insists that the Champions League wasn't out of the question when he signed from Barcelona in 1999. "I didn't join Mallorca just to go home. I knew that the Champions League was a difficult goal, but I thought it was reachable. Things are going very well."

"And there's a lot of excitement about the Champions League. I hope we don't let anyone down," he laughs.

 

[Tuppet]

Oh and the part which got left out in the OP, probably because it was in spoiler -

Excerpt from book Soccer men on Van der sar in Juve -

Van der Sar probably regretted it, too. His years at Juventus were his worst. For the only time in his career, he lost confidence and committed what the Italians called papere—keeper's errors. The Italian media dubbed him Van der Gol, for "goal." Juventus asked him to have his eyes tested. In 2001 they packed him off to little Fulham in London. In Dublin on September 1, 2001, I was present at the nadir of Van der Sar's career. Holland lost 1-0 to Ireland and missed qualifying for the next year's World Cup. After the final whistle, Van der Sar strode off in what, by his standards, was a state of high emotion. He passed a small table that stood beside the field. It looked doomed. Van der Sar lifted a long leg to administer the coup de grace. But then, instead of shattering the table, he lifted his leg an inch higher and merely flicked a plastic cup off the tabletop. That was Van der Sar: the ice rabbit with perfect footwork. His best then seemed behind him. Fulham had assured him it was bound for glory, but the money dried up, and the former world's best goalkeeper ended up spending four years at a West London neighborhood club. Man-chester United and Arsenal seemed content soldiering on with substandard keepers. Whereas in the Netherlands a goalkeeper was expected to be an outfield player in England little seemed expected of him at all.

 

[Enigma_87]

Also just to add in advance. I'm not sure how well rated is Nadal around here and sorry for sounding harsh in the write up, but I really think he's by far the worst CB on the pitch. Nadal was called the beast of Barcelona mainly for his surging through the field and generally relying on his strength and stamina rather than positional sence and defensive overall quality.

He was rash in some games, has a fair history of being sent off and also having lapses of concentration during his time at Barcelona. Koeman was by far the best defender Barca had in their dream team. After he left they shipped a lot of goals particularly the season I mentioned when they were 4th at the bottom in the goals conceded.

Nadal is generally not that much rated for his defensive game to be honest. He's an excellent addition in terms of versatility but IMO there were far better CB's that are in the draft.

and I also think we really dodged a bullet there trying to sign him in 1996. Barcelona were considering selling him and in the end changed their mind.

 

[Tuppet]

Mate I guess people would decide if Nadal is a bad defender or not
Anyway if we have to think about a bad defender, how about Marcelo ?

Marcelo has now entered his tenth season with Real Madrid and still has the odd defensive positioning or awareness issue. He is who he is - an above-average attacking wing-back who can create goals in times of need but can cost you points due to defensive lapses.

Marcelo is prodigious at what he does offensively but can be disturbingly bad when it comes to defending - both in extremes. The 27-year-old Brazilian has improved remarkably on the offensive side in this time - to the point where in the past couple of campaigns, his attacking prowess and ability to unlock defensive walls has outweighed his defensive deficiencies and earned him a starting role. But somehow, now as a veteran and captain of Real Madrid (second in line to Sergio Ramos), Marcelo has still not nailed down the defensive side and his weaknesses might be shown up come the business end of the season.

Here he would be against Caniggia + Zanetti combo, if there is a mismatch its this one.

Familiar problems

When Marcelo gets beaten on the flank, Madrid rely on using one of the central defenders or midfielders to cover for him, which stretches the defense and opens channels for the opposing team.

But it’s not just when he gets beaten one-on-one which causes his team-mates to exert extra effort, it’s simple things like tracking back that Marcelo suffers with.

In this case, Marcelo fails to anticipate Gerard Moreno’s run on the give-and-go, and when he finally does realise what’s happening, he casually jogs back as a spectator while Pepe runs across to make a tackle.

In another example of poor defensive awareness this season - a tense match at San Mames - Marcelo neither commits to the winger with the ball nor tracks to mark the player making the run in behind the defense. Marcelo is caught in the middle of his two options - essentially the worst place to be.

On an ensuing possession, he fails to realise that Markel Susaeta has made an immediate run after releasing the ball. Once again, Marcelo is one step behind, and by the time he works it out Susaeta has broken free on the flank and is able to make an uncontested cross into the penalty area.

Furthermore, on another possession, Marcelo attempts to clog the middle when central defender Raphael Varane is already covering that space, leaving his man completely open on the flank.

Two minutes later, Marcelo lunges in rather than simply keeping his man in front of him. Attackers relish when opposing defenders dive in, knowing they need just a touch to get by and swing in a cross.

In the second half, Marcelo continues his defensive lapses. One instance sees him overcommit himself to chase the ball, leaving a man behind him completely free in a dangerous position. This is where defensive awareness has to come into play: the realisation that it’s most important to track the man making the run rather than running out to the man in possession of the ball which only leaves the defence exposed.

It is no coincidence then, that Real Madrid’s lone conceded goal this season has come from Marcelo’s defensive negligence. It came on this play, where Bilbao had won the ball in midfield and Marcelo was making a run forward. Rather than immediately tracking back full steam, Marcelo took a gamble and tried to stop the counter-attack which only afforded more freedom to the man behind him.

 

[Enigma_87]

Oh and the part which got left out in the OP, probably because it was in spoiler -

Excerpt from book Soccer men on Van der sar in Juve -

VdS time at Juve while controversial and not being at his absolute best he was really solid enough. He conceded just 47 goals in 2 seasons. His first season in particular he conceded just 20 goals - a feat that was hardly replicated.

On the top of his game VdS is one of the best goalkeepers in the last 2 decades. We won't go for the peak VdS of course as in line with the draft, but having in mind his WC98 form and also his first season form he was excellent and enough to have a solid keeper at the back with excellent reflexes.


example of them in a good game against Roma.

FYI VdS conceded just 17 goals from open play in his first season 3 were from penos. Again I don't want to mislead anybody - we're not going for absolute career best of VdS here, we are going for his physical young best when he didn't have all the experience in the world but still was solid enough to post some great stats and clean sheets in Juve.

VdS received a lot of pressure from the press also being the first non italian keeper in Juve and also with the whole side misfiring and rather underwhelming in attack he was scrapegoated in some of those games leading to that not so fair assessment on him.

 

[Tuppet]

VdS time at Juve while controversial and not being at his absolute best he was really solid enough. He conceded just 47 goals in 2 seasons. His first season in particular he conceded just 20 goals - a feat that was hardly replicated.

On the top of his game VdS is one of the best goalkeepers in the last 2 decades. We won't go for the peak VdS of course as in line with the draft, but having in mind his WC98 form and also his first season form he was excellent and enough to have a solid keeper at the back with excellent reflexes.

example of them in a good game against Roma.

FYI VdS conceded just 17 goals from open play in his first season 3 were from penos. Again I don't want to mislead anybody - we're not going for absolute career best of VdS here, we are going for his physical young best when he didn't have all the experience in the world but still was solid enough to post some great stats and clean sheets in Juve.

VdS received a lot of pressure from the press also being the first non italian keeper in Juve and also with the whole side misfiring and rather underwhelming in attack he was scrapegoated in some of those games leading to that not so fair assessment on him.

Well again I am just quoting multiple neutral sources, considering him for worst XI of Juventus, worst buy of Juventus and basically having an absolutely terrible time of his career. These are individual neutral takes on him from a variety of sources, from blogs to news sites to books.

 

[Enigma_87]

Mate I guess people would decide if Nadal is a bad defender or not

I guess so. I'm looking forward at seeing some feedback for him and how he's rated around here

Anyway if we have to think about a bad defender, how about Marcelo ?

Marcelo has now entered his tenth season with Real Madrid and still has the odd defensive positioning or awareness issue. He is who he is - an above-average attacking wing-back who can create goals in times of need but can cost you points due to defensive lapses.

Marcelo is prodigious at what he does offensively but can be disturbingly bad when it comes to defending - both in extremes. The 27-year-old Brazilian has improved remarkably on the offensive side in this time - to the point where in the past couple of campaigns, his attacking prowess and ability to unlock defensive walls has outweighed his defensive deficiencies and earned him a starting role. But somehow, now as a veteran and captain of Real Madrid (second in line to Sergio Ramos), Marcelo has still not nailed down the defensive side and his weaknesses might be shown up come the business end of the season.

Here he would be against Caniggia + Zanetti combo, if there is a mismatch its this one.

Marcelo was up against one of probably the best Barca sides in history, I think he holds his own against the very best of oppositions. We have Modric/Conte and Helmer(for Cannigia in particular) to cover for him.

I think Marcelo is solid enough defensively otherwise you won't be a main man as a LB for Real for that amount of time.

People were calling out R.Carlos pretty much the same names during his time at Real and IMO they are very similar in both aspects. I think Marcelo offers a bit more variety in attack(which R.Carlos said himself) while R.Carlos is probably a bit more solid defensively, but really I don't see them much apart.


^^ nice compilation of him.

Marcelo is getting the same treatment as Carlos but for me both are great LB's best in their days(maybe Alaba has a shout now, but I see him more of a midfielder lately) that can man the entire flank.

 

[Enigma_87]

Well again I am just quoting multiple neutral sources, considering him for worst XI of Juventus, worst buy of Juventus and basically having an absolutely terrible time of his career. These are individual neutral takes on him from a variety of sources, from blogs to news sites to books.

Again, the media gave him hard time due to being the first foreign goalkeeper for Juve and the side under performing as a whole. The season before VdS with the same defence they conceded 39 goals. The next season with him 20, which is nearly double less. If he was such a bad keeper at that time how come that feat was never replicated by Buffon after him?

He never lost his place in those 2 seasons as well, posting the best stats for goals conceded in the league(Buffon as other excellent keepers were playing at the same time).

 

[Tuppet]

I guess so. I'm looking forward at seeing some feedback for him and how he's rated around here



Marcelo was up against one of probably the best Barca sides in history, I think he holds his own against the very best of oppositions. We have Modric/Conte and Helmer(for Cannigia in particular) to cover for him.

I think Marcelo is solid enough defensively otherwise you won't be a main man as a LB for Real for that amount of time.

People were calling out R.Carlos pretty much the same names during his time at Real and IMO they are very similar in both aspects. I think Marcelo offers a bit more variety in attack(which R.Carlos said himself) while R.Carlos is probably a bit more solid defensively, but really I don't see them much apart.


^^ nice compilation of him.

Marcelo is getting the same treatment as Carlos but for me both are great LB's best in their days(maybe Alaba has a shout now, but I see him more of a midfielder lately) that can man the entire flank.

I am pretty sure Barcelona is not a good example at all. Don't think he held how own in those games. For the second highlighted pointed, I already mentioned its mostly because of his attacking input. As for the compilation, I have seen it and there is hardly any defending in that compilation.

 

[harms]

Interesting - I prefer both Vialli and Villa slightly closer to the left and Schneider and Modric slightly closer to the right. But I guess that it's not a serious issue

Tuppet's flanks are awesome - but one question, wasn't Laudrup more of a second striker than a winger in Germany? I have a feeling that he was but I don't remember it well enough to be sure

"Energizer" Conte will create all sorts of problems for immobile genius Riquelme

 

[Tuppet]

Again, the media gave him hard time due to being the first foreign goalkeeper for Juve and the side under performing as a whole. The season before VdS with the same defence they conceded 39 goals. The next season with him 20, which is nearly double less. If he was such a bad keeper at that time how come that feat was never replicated by Buffon after him?

He never lost his place in those 2 seasons as well, posting the best stats for goals conceded in the league(Buffon as other excellent keepers were playing at the same time).

He forced Juventus to buy a keeper for 32.6 million pounds. While getting sold to Fullham, when United and Arsenal both need keepers.

 

[Enigma_87]

Speaking of league peak, Brian Laudrup has spent 3 season in Germany - how he is described here. He had cruciate ligament injury in Bayern which resulted of missing half of the season during his time in Bayern and subsequently sold.

Also Laudrup was best later in his career during his time at Rangers which has been noted in a lot of interviews. Here's a piece from Smith - who brought him at Rangers, when I think he was at his peak.

It was 1994 and Brian Laudrup smiles at the memory of it. A pivotal moment in his life, he says. On that journey to the Cameron House hotel, where Smith would make his pitch in full, he remembers two words above all others.

"I've been following you for years," the Rangers manager told him. "And in my team you'll have a free role."

"Free role" - the words Laudrup had longed to hear at Bayern Munich, AC Milan and Fiorentina, but never did. "I know how to use you," said Smith. Even before the car was parked in the grounds of the hotel, Laudrup was convinced that what Smith was telling him was true.

He forced Juventus to buy a keeper for 32.6 million pounds. While getting sold to Fullham, when United and Arsenal both need keepers.

strange way of putting it as forced. Parma were in financial trouble which let most of their stars to be sold - Buffon included.

 

[harms]

Marcelo's character assassination Really good effort, and he certainly looks like a weak link here

 

[Tuppet]

Speaking of league peak, Brian Laudrup has spent 3 season in Germany - how he is described here. He had cruciate ligament injury in Bayern which resulted of missing half of the season during his time in Bayern and subsequently sold.

Also Laudrup was best later in his career during his time at Rangers which has been noted in a lot of interviews. Here's a piece from Smith - who brought him at Rangers, when I think he was at his peak.

In those 3 seasons Kicker rated him International class for 2 seasons and was 6th and 10th best attacker in the league. He also came 6th in Ballon D'or ratings.

 

[Gio]

Also just to add in advance. I'm not sure how well rated is Nadal around here and sorry for sounding harsh in the write up, but I really think he's by far the worst CB on the pitch. Nadal was called the beast of Barcelona mainly for his surging through the field and generally relying on his strength and stamina rather than positional sence and defensive overall quality.

He was rash in some games, has a fair history of being sent off and also having lapses of concentration during his time at Barcelona. Koeman was by far the best defender Barca had in their dream team. After he left they shipped a lot of goals particularly the season I mentioned when they were 4th at the bottom in the goals conceded.

Nadal is generally not that much rated for his defensive game to be honest. He's an excellent addition in terms of versatility but IMO there were far better CB's that are in the draft.

and I also think we really dodged a bullet there trying to sign him in 1996. Barcelona were considering selling him and in the end changed their mind.

Nah I'm not buying that. Sure he was a little rash, in the same mould of Couto and Montero for instance, but he was still a top defender. Off the ball I'd take him over Koeman and Helmer every time.

 

[harms]

Speaking of league peak, Brian Laudrup has spent 3 season in Germany - how he is described here. He had cruciate ligament injury in Bayern which resulted of missing half of the season during his time in Bayern and subsequently sold.

Also Laudrup was best later in his career during his time at Rangers which has been noted in a lot of interviews. Here's a piece from Smith - who brought him at Rangers, when I think he was at his peak.




strange way of putting it as forced. Parma were in financial trouble which let most of their stars to be sold - Buffon included.

He was named Danish player of the year twice and one of his career peaks (Euro 1992 and 6th place in Ballon D'Or vote), came in 1992, between Bayern Munich spell and his move to Fiorentina

 

[Tuppet]

strange way of putting it as forced. Parma were in financial trouble which let most of their stars to be sold - Buffon included.

You don't buy 32.6 million pound keeper if you have a decent one.

 

[Tuppet]

The story on the other flank is not much rosy either. Brian Laudrup was a dribbling god, check out his performance against legendary defense of Milan -
1:05 for Maldini

Now here he has support of one Roberto Carlos against Salgado, who while is no Marcelo in defending, he is no Maldini either, and Laudrup even troubled Maldini.

 

[Enigma_87]

I am pretty sure Barcelona is not a good example at all. Don't think he held how own in those games. For the second highlighted pointed, I already mentioned its mostly because of his attacking input. As for the compilation, I have seen it and there is hardly any defending in that compilation.

Erm, his peak came in Barcelona If Barcelona is not a good example what is to decide his quality? 56 goals conceded with Nadal as CB - only relegated(or close to relagation) teams conceded more.

Nah I'm not buying that. Sure he was a little rash, in the same mould of Couto and Montero for instance, but he was still a top defender. Off the ball I'd take him over Koeman and Helmer every time.

Koeman is a different matter. Helmer for me is a lot more solid than Nadal at CB - in positional sense and defensive ability.

He was named Danish player of the year twice and one of his career peaks (Euro 1992 and 6th place in Ballon D'Or vote), came in 1992, between Bayern Munich spell and his move to Fiorentina

Mainly due to his Euro 1992 form. He was injured at Bayern missing half of the season.

 

[KM]

Snowegma's midfield is just incredible really. I think I made a mistake by not picking Kaka instead of Ibra in the first pick. I really don't see anyone of the quality of peak Kaka in the other team.

 

[Tuppet]

Erm, his peak came in Barcelona If Barcelona is not a good example what is to decide his quality? 56 goals conceded with Nadal as CB - only relegated(or close to relagation) teams conceded more.




Koeman is a different matter. Helmer for me is a lot more solid than Nadal at CB - in positional sense and defensive ability.

What ? I am talking about you refering to Marcelo as holding his own against Barcelona in this post, its not about Nadal at all - I highlighted and everything

I guess so. I'm looking forward at seeing some feedback for him and how he's rated around here



Marcelo was up against one of probably the best Barca sides in history, I think he holds his own against the very best of oppositions. We have Modric/Conte and Helmer(for Cannigia in particular) to cover for him.

I think Marcelo is solid enough defensively otherwise you won't be a main man as a LB for Real for that amount of time.

People were calling out R.Carlos pretty much the same names during his time at Real and IMO they are very similar in both aspects. I think Marcelo offers a bit more variety in attack(which R.Carlos said himself) while R.Carlos is probably a bit more solid defensively, but really I don't see them much apart.


^^ nice compilation of him.

Marcelo is getting the same treatment as Carlos but for me both are great LB's best in their days(maybe Alaba has a shout now, but I see him more of a midfielder lately) that can man the entire flank.

 

[Enigma_87]

Marcelo's character assassination Really good effort, and he certainly looks like a weak link here

Exactly what has been always said about R.Carlos by the general public - that he can't defend, only good going forward etc..

 

[Tuppet]

Snowegma's midfield is just incredible really. I think I made a mistake by not picking Kaka instead of Ibra in the first pick. I really don't see anyone of the quality of peak Kaka in the other team.

Well sure, I don't deny it, the point is we have covered the threat as well as anyone could. While our threats are not countered as well. As for Kaka quality you just have to look at Zanetti and Carlos.

 

[KM]

Well sure, I don't deny it, the point is we have covered the threat as well as anyone could. While our threats are not countered as well. As for Kaka quality you just have to look at Zanetti and Carlos.

That's a good point, you've a very, very clear advantage in the fullbacks department. The best in the draft I'd say.

 

[Enigma_87]

What ? I am talking about you refering to Marcelo as holding his own against Barcelona in this post, its not about Nadal at all - I highlighted and everything

Whoops sorry, didn't think you referred for Marcelo there

I think if we get back and forward with Marcelo and Carlos we will have the same results really. Wouldn't be too hard to find numerous examples of Carlos being slated that he can't defend. They are a lot alike IMO, and given the draft pool, both excellent choices to provide width on the left.

Well sure, I don't deny it, the point is we have covered the threat as well as anyone could. While our threats are not countered as well. As for Kaka quality you just have to look at Zanetti and Carlos.

Kaka will win you the game tho, with full backs they are providing width and creativity but you still need someone to finish in in the attacking third.

harms also brought a valid point for Laudrup he was used a bit as a second striker in his time in Germany. And while you have man out wide the only pure goalscorer in your team up front is Voller amidst 2 CB's who are well equipped in the air.

 

[Tuppet]

Whoops sorry, didn't think you referred for Marcelo there

I think if we get back and forward with Marcelo and Carlos we will have the same results really. Wouldn't be too hard to find numerous examples of Carlos being slated that he can't defend. They are a lot alike IMO, and given the draft pool, both excellent choices to provide width on the left.

First I completely disagree that Carlos and Marcelo are anywhere near same in quality. Secondly who is Carlos facing ? Salgado ? While Marcelo is up against a speed demon and one of the best Argentina forward in Caniggia.

 

[Enigma_87]

First I completely disagree that Carlos and Marcelo are anywhere near same in quality. Secondly who is Carlos facing ? Salgado ? While Marcelo is up against a speed demon and one of the best Argentina forward in Caniggia.

Schneider is going at R.Carlos when we have the ball, so it's not only Salgado. That's why our set up is balanced on the wings. We have Modric dropping to help Marcelo if needed and Schneider providing more natural width with the defensive solid Salgado. Schneider will face R.Carlos at times like he did in that WC final.

As for Carlos/Marcelo debate I'm not saying they are on the same level. I'm however that they are very comparable in their game and zone that they operate. Both were slated for their defensive contribution during their careers and lauded for going forward. Carlos is obviously better, but not that much of a mismatch. Marcelo is certainly quality and best LB at the time.

 

[Snow]

Well again I am just quoting multiple neutral sources, considering him for worst XI of Juventus, worst buy of Juventus and basically having an absolutely terrible time of his career. These are individual neutral takes on him from a variety of sources, from blogs to news sites to books.

You quoted insinuations. VDS didn't regret his time there and he instigated his move away form Juventus, they didn't "ship him off".

I've already pointed out that his reputation at Juventus are mostly based on a few games. Remember De Gea at United? Judging by the media he was the worst keeper in the league. In all honesty he fluffed some crosses but was generally a very good keeper in that time for us. Eye tests are also common practice. That's again the media talking but by means, let them be your main source because no one is as credible as the media right?

I'd rather focus on Brian Laudrup out left than wasting my time on goalkeepers that keep clean sheets. I don't think I've ever seen him out there for any club in that kind of formation. You probably picked him because of Denmark's '92 campaign but whatever the reason is you're playing him in a very different setup to either that as well. He only spent two seasons with Bayern and he was injured for the most of the 2nd season. Shortly after he joined Bayern he quit the NT and came back right at the end of the '92 season.

The story on the other flank is not much rosy either. Brian Laudrup was a dribbling god, check out his performance against legendary defense of Milan -
1:05 for Maldini

Now here he has support of one Roberto Carlos against Salgado, who while is no Marcelo in defending, he is no Maldini either, and Laudrup even troubled Maldini.

I'm not interested at his performances that are closer to his career peak when you've picked him for the Bundesliga. You're influencing votes by doing this.

 

[Tuppet]

Kaka will win you the game tho, with full backs they are providing width and creativity but you still need someone to finish in in the attacking third.

harms also brought a valid point for Laudrup he was used a bit as a second striker in his time in Germany. And while you have man out wide the only pure goalscorer in your team up front is Voller amidst 2 CB's who are well equipped in the air.

I am sorry but you really have to see how many games Carlos, Laudrup, Zanetti and Caniggia have won for their teams. Its not about numbers I could potentially have employed 2 more strikers and claim that I have more goal scorers so I win. If Marcelo gets beaten over and over, one of those opportunities is going to lead to a goal, Salgado is also going to have trouble against Carlos and Laudrup.

As for harms question, Laudrup really floated all over the front line, he is employed as a wide forward who has a license to cut inside, this role is not different at all from what he had in Bayern. There are multiple clips of him doing exactly that in this video -

 

[Enigma_87]

Snowegma's midfield is just incredible really. I think I made a mistake by not picking Kaka instead of Ibra in the first pick. I really don't see anyone of the quality of peak Kaka in the other team.

Thanks mate. I'm really happy with having Kaka, as we'd picked him first choice regardless of when was our turn. For me he was just efficient and a man for the big stage, with added a bit of a sparkle that great Brazillians have. Carlos and Zanetti are undoubted quality so props for Tuppet for picking them, but Kaka is really one to build the team around and star at the biggest stage.

 

[Tuppet]

You quoted insinuations. VDS didn't regret his time there and he instigated his move away form Juventus, they didn't "ship him off".

I've already pointed out that his reputation at Juventus are mostly based on a few games. Remember De Gea at United? Judging by the media he was the worst keeper in the league. In all honesty he fluffed some crosses but was generally a very good keeper in that time for us. Eye tests are also common practice. That's again the media talking but by means, let them be your main source because no one is as credible as the media right?

I'd rather focus on Brian Laudrup out left than wasting my time on goalkeepers that keep clean sheets. I don't think I've ever seen him out there for any club in that kind of formation. You probably picked him because of Denmark's '92 campaign but whatever the reason is you're playing him in a very different setup to either that as well. He only spent two seasons with Bayern and he was injured for the most of the 2nd season. Shortly after he joined Bayern he quit the NT and came back right at the end of the '92 season.


I'm not interested at his performances that are closer to his career peak when you've picked him for the Bundesliga. You're influencing votes by doing this.

I quoted individual sources, who have nothing to do with this draft games. You are hardly going to find an official proclamation of him being the worst keeper in Juve history.

Its from the next season of Bundesliga, seriously there was no left back of Maldini's quality in Bundesliga so I chose this video to show how he can handle even the best of defenders. Finally I have already posted of his credentials in Bundesliga.