oh crap, sorry about that @Marty1968 forget about the substitution then.
La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - 1st Rd Enigma_87/Snow vs Tuppet
- Thread starter Marty1968
- Start date
And I already posted what the general knowledge of Laudrup and Caniggia was in the time and leagues that they represented. I don't think given their level at the time, Marcelo and Salgado are that much troubled as you claim.
Your whole argument from page one was Marcelo and VdS and it hasn't moved one bit.
damn after I spend like half an hour making gifs 
Riquelme won't be happy. Very little belief from the manager. He runs down to be substituted only to know he the sub is illegible.
Its not only Caniggia and Laudrup, for the nth time its also Roberto Carlos and Zanetti. And I am fairly certain that they would trouble your fullbacks.
I deserve it.
Riquelme won't be happy. Very little belief from the manager. He runs down to be substituted only to know he the sub is illegible.
And let's pretend nobody else on the pitch eh? If you have numbers on the flanks you'll be dominated in the middle it's simple. From where is more likely to score?
Well at least we agree on something, the game will certainly bypass your second best attacking option in Riquelme.
From both places really. I never hide the fact that you are strong in the middle, the only thing is I have overloaded the middle with 2 defensive midfielders. I am better equipped to tackle your threats than you are to mine, your fullbacks if they were solid enough would have made this work.
I'm not so sure. You have another player in the middle that brings no work rate and won't track back and you lose that middle battle as Riquelme as you have instructed him as well will do zero defensive work whatsoever.
It's safe to say Laudrup and Caniggia will offer zero service in defence as well. So you have 4 midfielders and 2 attackers vs 2 defensive midfielders and 2 CB's when we're going forward. Essentially you have the same double numbers but in much more dangerous area with also shaky Nadal at the back.
And those midfielders and attackers are at their absolute best in the league they represent.
On the other side you have Laudrup and Caniggia who were nothing special at that time in the league they represent. If you had world class wingers you might have a point.
But thats kind of the point, there are just too many bodies in the middle, and my mid + defense is squeezing space there. You are basically trying to attack in a crowded area,while affording the freedom of wing to me. Also I would really love if you have those numbers committed forward, a quick counter is all we need in this situation.
So it's good when you have more bodies on the flank but bad when we have in the middle?
Which is the more dangerous zone middle in front of the box or near the byline? There's a reason why there are more bodies in the middle, they are protecting the more dangerous zone. Would you score from the byline?
In reality I don't think anyone would buy that Laudrup/Caniggia combo doing what is expected from them. Truth is, as much as you are trying to discredit our full backs, they've met much much more dangerous wingers and did their job. I don't see your team exploiting the wings with that winger combo. And let's not pretend every single attack you'll have 2 on 1 on the flank, you are playing counter attacking football here, will how will Carlos and Zanetti always magically transport themselves 50 yards further up the pitch? Who will pass from deep, De Rossi, Eilts?
Roberto Carlos
I see so many flaws in what is expected of your team and what will actually happen.
first of all you are the counter attacking team, you won't have the opportunity to double tag our full backs. We'll have the ball most of the time.
Next even if your DM win it back they don't have the vision or passing range to hit it to your wingers or Riquelme.
De Rossi and Eilts aren't the best to work in tight spaces and if pressed they will most likely lose the ball.
Next your wingers are really not up to par to what is expected of them. As others suggested Marcelo is agile enough to keep up with Canigga and eliminate that danger. On the other side we have Salgado who is aggressive and solid defender to nullify Laudrup.
Carlos and Zanetti in counter attacking set up will usually be deep if you want them to keep the line. We have fast players to track back.
I think your team is about 3 players too short of doing what you ask them to do - 2 quality wingers and 1 midfielder with passing range and vision, but also defensively sound ala Albertini next to Eilts and De Rossi.
first of all you are the counter attacking team, you won't have the opportunity to double tag our full backs. We'll have the ball most of the time.
Next even if your DM win it back they don't have the vision or passing range to hit it to your wingers or Riquelme.
De Rossi and Eilts aren't the best to work in tight spaces and if pressed they will most likely lose the ball.
Next your wingers are really not up to par to what is expected of them. As others suggested Marcelo is agile enough to keep up with Canigga and eliminate that danger. On the other side we have Salgado who is aggressive and solid defender to nullify Laudrup.
Carlos and Zanetti in counter attacking set up will usually be deep if you want them to keep the line. We have fast players to track back.
I think your team is about 3 players too short of doing what you ask them to do - 2 quality wingers and 1 midfielder with passing range and vision, but also defensively sound ala Albertini next to Eilts and De Rossi.
Also let's not forget Carlos usually played with 3 CB or 2CB and very close to that pair DM(Hierro). He had an additional CB to help him out. While Marcelo is in a 4 man line and doesn't have that protection.
So that's another question how well will he work with Laudrup, who would offer zero cover as well(unlike Macca or Seedorf).
So that's another question how well will he work with Laudrup, who would offer zero cover as well(unlike Macca or Seedorf).
once in a lifetime lighting struck. But never at the same place as you knowtbf it's a wrong question to ask a manager with R. Carlos in his team
Normally teams that lose the midfield battle lose the game. Case in point is recently Barcelona and how they successful they are.
Do you really see Tuppet winning this game mate, with that set of players with that one trick pony on the left? Genuine asking?
Of course it's once in a lifetime strike but you walked right into itonce in a lifetime lighting struck. But never at the same place as you know
Normally teams that lose the midfield battle lose the game. Case in point is recently Barcelona and how they successful they are.
Do you really see Tuppet winning this game mate, with that set of players with that one trick pony on the left? Genuine asking?
Yes, sure I see him winning it - otherwise I wouldn't have voted for him. I feel that most of your criticism of his players is unjust while Marcelo is going to be found out and you're going to be in trouble then - again, you don't need to underestimate the danger of a winger/wing back finding himself free next to the opponents box. Tuppet's team isn't ideal - Nadal is a little shaky and Cannigia could've been upgraded, but I feel that his tactical plan - negating your influence in the middle by overcrowding it and creating a numerical (and quality) advantage on the flanks is spot on. Also, De Rossi is certainly good enough on the ball to pass in to Laudrup/Riquelme/Voller under pressure
And who is a "one trick pony"? Laudrup? Carlos? Neither of them are in my book.
One trick pony I said about the Marcelo and VdS argument.Of course it's once in a lifetime strike but you walked right into it
Yes, sure I see him winning it - otherwise I wouldn't have voted for him. I feel that most of your criticism of his players is unjust while Marcelo is going to be found out and you're going to be in trouble then - again, you don't need to underestimate the danger of a winger/wing back finding himself free next to the opponents box. Tuppet's team isn't ideal - Nadal is a little shaky and Cannigia could've been upgraded, but I feel that his tactical plan - negating your influence in the middle by overcrowding it and creating a numerical (and quality) advantage on the flanks is spot on. Also, De Rossi is certainly good enough on the ball to pass in to Laudrup/Riquelme/Voller under pressure
And who is a "one trick pony"? Laudrup? Carlos? Neither of them are in my book.
And I don't see why how Villa/Vialli and Kaka are underestimated in this game.
So Caniggia isn't ideal for his only plan to go down to the left, yet will be enough to win the game. I find that really odd, while our attacking threat is neglected.
In reality even Tuppet admitted he's the underdog in this one, tried to sub Riquelme as he himself admitted with that move that he's not the right player for his setup and probably all would agree that Caniggia and Laudrup are far from the ideal wingers for this set up, yet our strengths are neglected.
That's true, but a direct comparison simply won't work for several reasons. For one thing Carlos was a more astute defender than he's often given credit for. He wasn't great at it, but he was decent enough. I don't see Marcelo excelling at what Carlos often did: Backtracking at great speed to actually snuff out an attack brewing on his side. Carlos played a high risk game and was sometimes punished for it (or rather, the team were punished for it), but he wasn't a positively unsound defender as such.
Marcelo, on the other hand, simply isn't very good considered as a defender, and sporting him in that role is a calculated risk Real are willing to take because they tend to dominate (as people say) their opponents more often than not. You wouldn't want to rely on either player in a match where you were constantly under threat, but I'd easily pick Carlos over Marcelo in such a match.
It's all a bit academic, though. We all know Marcelo isn't a de facto liability for Real most of the time – if he'd been that, he'd been dropped a long time ago. What he brings to the table outweighs his weaknesses – that's how it usually works. The question is whether your team – here – is set up to accommodate such a player, given the nature of the opposition he's up against. Or rather, the question is whether this Marcelo situation – which has become the main point of discussion in this match – is actually a crucial factor or not.
Well in this game we have most of the possession when Tuppet's team is playing on a counter. I'd say that's pretty much how both Marcelo and Carlos played. I think our set up fits better both of them, while on the other hand Tuppet is playing in a counter attacking team, something Carlos didn't play at both in Real and at Brazil. I think our set up is much more apt for a LWB in Marcelo/Carlos mode than his.
Also Carlos was used to man the whole flank and or have protection there. Macca or Seedorf could've added that protection. Laudrup on the other hand?
I see many issues with Tuppet's line up and the personel that he tries to bed in, subbing Riquelme was also pretty noticeable of how he'd read the game and that he needs additional hard working midfielder there, yet the whole discussion turned out to Marcelo.
Marcelo who played 350 games for Real is somehow so bad that he'd get beaten by Caniggia who is average at best. I mean it's laughable argument really which seems to work for Tuppet as he deflected the discussion to that point.
That's not the actual argument, though. What he claims is that Marcelo would find himself too often in a situation he isn't well equipped to deal with. How many games he has for Real has no bearing on that, as you could very well argue that he plays a highly specialized role for that team – he isn't a run-of-the-mill, all-purpose fullback.
But enough about Marcelo. I don't think he will decide this match. What will decide it, is a goal – and for me you'll grab that goal. Your attacking options are considerably better than his – and that will win you the match.
But enough about Marcelo. I don't think he will decide this match. What will decide it, is a goal – and for me you'll grab that goal. Your attacking options are considerably better than his – and that will win you the match.
I can agree with you on VdS, even if I was the one that brought up his questionable time in Juve in the main thread, but I don't agree with you on Marcelo. Chester said it better than I could've said it; Marcelo is a player with a very unique skill-set which requires a smart job from his manager to accommodate him. Here, being doubled on and with your focus on the central areas, he won't be his usual attacking self, running to the opponent's box, providing width and supporting attack - he would be forced to defend against Zanetti and Caniggia - something that he doesn't excel in. Even with questionable Caniggia's performances in the Serie A it's more than enough to dominate the entire flank. On the other flank, even better attacking fullback in Carlos will support Laudrup - not a questionable choice, like you want us to believe, the only problem with him is that he played more as a SS and not as a winger, but with Carlos dominating the whole flank he is free to drift inside. Your fullback, again, won't bother them much attacking-wise.
Centrally, Tuppet created a very interesting situation - he made a "death square" of 2 CBs and 2 holding midfielders who are tasked mainly and only to neglect you space in the middle - something that Kaka and Villa really need to have. With him sitting deep you having more and more bodies centrally won't help you much - even more so, overcrowding is bad for some of your players.
Here's my take on it. In the end I started to defend Tuppet's team more, seeing as I think that they should win and I didn't like your way of arguing, but it's going to stop now - going to sleep. Good luck! Will check the thread tomorrow, a very entertaining game.
It's ok. I think that in our set up we can get the best of him. I don't see his full backs that further up the pitch to create that 2-1 situations, and also I don't think the whole premise would work as not only his CB's but also his full backs would sit deep, otherwise any of our attacking options can move into the space left by those full backs. So the whole premise to work he'll have those fullbacks having defensive duties and his main attacking threats on the flanks will be the aforementioned wingers.
Anyhow I think this topic now has been beaten to death and it's up to the voters to decide who to go with. I think we can agree to disagree on this one. Thank you for your input and good night mate.
Seems like this one is done and dusted. Anyway last post before heading to bed. There is not much to say which is not argued already, but I would mention one more time that I have packed my central areas with 2 fantastic defensive midfielders and 2 world class center backs countering the major threat of my opponents. At the same time, I have 2 wide forwards boasting different style along with 2 rampaging wing backs creating overload on the wings. My best attackers are facing the weakest my opponents weakest defenders and would create many chances for a stone cold finisher in Rudi Voller.
I think my team's solid defensive foundation and tactical attacking plan would be able to win me this game. For voters I would urge to look beyond the fancy names in opposition line up and see that tactically we have it covered pretty well. This game has 3 defensive midfielders, its hardly going to be a goalfest, and with the quality in my wings and my striker I think we would nick the game and sit out.
What ever the out come it was a great game Enigma / Snow.
Also last call to the managers who have not voted yet -
@Cutch @Balu @Skizzo @crappycraperson @Šjor Bepo @Fergus' son @Downcast @KirkDuyt @Edgar Allan Pillow @Marty1968 @Boycott @Joga Bonito
I think my team's solid defensive foundation and tactical attacking plan would be able to win me this game. For voters I would urge to look beyond the fancy names in opposition line up and see that tactically we have it covered pretty well. This game has 3 defensive midfielders, its hardly going to be a goalfest, and with the quality in my wings and my striker I think we would nick the game and sit out.
What ever the out come it was a great game Enigma / Snow.
Also last call to the managers who have not voted yet -
@Cutch @Balu @Skizzo @crappycraperson @Šjor Bepo @Fergus' son @Downcast @KirkDuyt @Edgar Allan Pillow @Marty1968 @Boycott @Joga Bonito
I'm particularly low on Marcelo's defensive qualities recently as he was absolutely shocking against Roma the last time I watched a full Real match in terms of his desire to get back and his positioning when he did make it back. Its undoubtedly a trend throughout his career, and Caniggia is stylistically ideal to capitalise with his crazy speed and good eye for goal.
That said, I have no idea whether that's enough to tip the balance given the exceptional quality of Enigma/Snow's midfield and attack. I'll ponder a bit more.
That said, I have no idea whether that's enough to tip the balance given the exceptional quality of Enigma/Snow's midfield and attack. I'll ponder a bit more.
I do like the way Tuppet has prepared his team, both going forward with Riquelme able to feed the willing runners out wide, but equally from the back with Eilts especially and De Rossi expert at dropping into the back three to unleash the wing-backs. For Enigma/Snow, the front three is very appealing with Villa and Vialli well capable of creating space for Kaka to hit.
Opposition of styles between a team more suited for outflanking the ennemy and another team with a very strong vertebral column.
Good game, lots of discussion. Full credit to @Tuppet for making it a very tight one right as a draw at some point. I think he made the best out of the squad he had and certainly was a great effort.
IMO he was a couple of players short to achieve what he wanted from that formation, anyway good game.
I find it surprising tho how Marcelo and Salgado are rated however given they are 7+ years undisputed starters in one of the best sides and one that is known particularly for shipping players quite randomly, so there should be something they do good in both phases to be called liability.
Anyways some new faces in the draft so happy for all the new things learned.
IMO he was a couple of players short to achieve what he wanted from that formation, anyway good game.
I find it surprising tho how Marcelo and Salgado are rated however given they are 7+ years undisputed starters in one of the best sides and one that is known particularly for shipping players quite randomly, so there should be something they do good in both phases to be called liability.
Anyways some new faces in the draft so happy for all the new things learned.