La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - 1st Rd Enigma_87/Snow vs Tuppet

[Tuppet]

Again, not saying he's a bad player, I'm citing his own words and how others viewed him at the time. You had Bild saying he's a flop, what's hard to understand? Obviously he was nowhere near his top form at the time.


When he's far from a top defender, doesn't that make him a liability?

We can argue semantics, but at least Marcelo always puts an effort when he's beaten, Nadal being skinned and jogging back up was pretty normal sight in his time.

I give up really, its basic sementic I guess, where is Bild saying he's a flop in that sentence ? I really really dont see it.

 

[Enigma_87]

Alright lets not devolve into a bitch fighting here, I think I made my point on Marcelo, Caniggia, Nadal, Laudrup and Van der sar pretty clear. Lets see how voters rate them.

I agree with this, as otherwise we go round in circles.

 

[Tuppet]

Well you asked me for the biggest stage, so Roma was bigger club than Atalanta(not to nitpick but seen it couple of times, the other is a state) and he didn't make it there and was relegated to the bench. There's a fair shout that he was a big fish in a small pond.

And as we're discussing league performance, it's fair to pinpoint his stint at Atalanta no?

Yeah what has Roma got to do with his stint in Atlanta ?

 

[Enigma_87]

I think you misunderstand his comment. It was more a sarcastic remark about how the media treated him, not how he himself judged his own performances.

I think Tuppet misunderstood me, as I was giving this as an example compared to the VdS remarks and went downhill from there.

 

[Enigma_87]

Yeah what has Roma got to do with his stint in Atlanta ?

Was Roma not in Seria A? Shouldn't we compare players record in the league? Isn't this the whole point of the draft?

 

[Moby]

because I remember him shining at the biggest stages in World cups and Copa America.

Well, that's irrelevant here unless you are just being pedantic.
I picked Caniggia in a newbies draft which was based on nothing but Serie A form and even then I didn't think I had a top player on my hands, one who would based on his league exploits make a difference, and that hasn't changed much since. Flashy, with little substance is how I viewed him at the time.

 

[Tuppet]

Was Roma not in Seria A? Shouldn't we compare players record in the league? Isn't this the whole point of the draft?

what ? the point of draft is league peak, the peak was in Atlanta, so the question is same what has Roma got to do with his peak in Atlanta ?

 

[Tuppet]

Well, that's irrelevant here unless you are just being pedantic.
I picked Caniggia in a newbies draft which was based on nothing but Serie A form and even then I didn't think I had a top player on my hands, one who would based on his league exploits make a difference, and that hasn't changed much since. Flashy, with little substance is how I viewed him at the time.

Again context, I am not claiming he is a game changer by his own, a Ronaldo type player, but here he is in the perfect platform to use his abilities. He has Zanetti coming from behind and Riquelme's passes to latch on to and facing pretty much the poorest defender on the pitch. He is perfectly poised to make a difference, a pretty big difference.

 

[Enigma_87]

what ? the point of draft is league peak, the peak was in Atlanta, so the question is same what has Roma got to do with his peak in Atlanta ?

Andy Carroll was excellent at Newcastle at some point, Lallana as well for Soton, how are they viewed now? It's a bit short sighted to disregard being a flop at Roma.

Good/great players are judged on a bit of more than 85 games that he played for Atalanta(and to be fair hardly set the world alight there).

 

[Tuppet]

Andy Carroll was excellent at Newcastle at some point, Lallana as well for Soton, how are they viewed now? It's a bit short sighted to disregard being a flop at Roma.

Good/great players are judged on a bit of more than 85 games that he played for Atalanta(and to be fair hardly set the world alight there).

This is weird we are discussing Carroll and Lallana now, well Carroll played like half a season in top flight with Newcastle. Why would it be short sighted to disregard him at Roma, when we are using league peak form, which is in Atlanta for about 3 seasons ? Also he actually did not flop on the pitch in Roma, he snorted coke and was banned. The only reason to disregard his Roma stint is because it provides no real data as to his abilities, he was not on the pitch for most of that stint.

 

[Enigma_87]

Again context, I am not claiming he is a game changer by his own, a Ronaldo type player, but here he is in the perfect platform to use his abilities. He has Zanetti coming from behind and Riquelme's passes to latch on to and facing pretty much the poorest defender on the pitch. He is perfectly poised to make a difference, a pretty big difference.

Again pinpointing Marcelo. Again, when that's the only game plan here don't you think top and intelligent players will kinda get used to it? Even Fulham players did very well against Moyes plan to cross the feck out of the ball.

 

[Enigma_87]

This is weird we are discussing Carroll and Lallana now, well Carroll played like half a season in top flight with Newcastle. Why would it be short sighted to disregard him at Roma, when we are using league peak form, which is in Atlanta for about 3 seasons ? Also he actually did not flop on the pitch in Roma, he snorted coke and was banned.

Because you will have Kevin Phillips as one of the best strikers in Prem based on the same criteria.

He also flopped on the pitch. It didn't worked out for him and was benched before resorting to coke.

And he was not all that special to be honest at first place, I'm not sure why you rate him so highly. Flashy but not that effective with couple of excellent appearances.

 

[Tuppet]

Aight I need to cool off man, this has taken over my full time job You don't really have to worry Enigma, my team is underdogs here. I forsee Kaka being a vote magnet in this game, its hard to keep with your names. Anyway good debating so far man, will log in later to see if I have any hope and spam the shit out this thread.

 

[Tuppet]

Because you will have Kevin Phillips as one of the best strikers in Prem based on the same criteria.

He also flopped on the pitch. It didn't worked out for him and was benched before resorting to coke.

And he was not all that special to be honest at first place, I'm not sure why you rate him so highly. Flashy but not that effective with couple of excellent appearances.

You are basically re hashing what Aldo said. I dont really see your point about him being judged on Roma performance, when its written in the rules that its based on peak performance. But hey draft games, you gotta do what you gotta do

 

[Enigma_87]

Aight I need to cool off man, this has taken over my full time job You don't really have to worry Enigma, my team is underdogs here. I forsee Kaka being a vote magnet in this game, its hard to keep with your names. Anyway good debating so far man, will log in later to see if I have any hope and spam the shit out this thread.

Haha no worries mate. I hope you don't get anything personally, that's not my point I'm off to watch the game. GL to us.

 

[Enigma_87]

You are basically re hashing what Aldo said. I dont really see your point about him being judged on Roma performance, when its written in the rules that its based on peak performance. But hey draft games, you gotta do what you gotta do

haha, to be fair I haven't seen Aldo's post was too busy answering yours. and alerts going like crazy.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Flashy, with little substance is how I viewed him at the time.

He actually wasn't that flashy either - unless you mean it in a The Flash sort of way.

I hear what you're saying, though. He's a problematic player. I've always been of the opinion that given the right set-up, he could be extremely dangerous because of his particular skill set. But in a draft with these restrictions, he's bound to be questioned. His best, most consistent performances came for Argentina - especially in a Copa context.

He's also problematic - to elaborate - in the sense that he isn't a typical player either as a winger/wing forward or a striker/second striker. He's a bit of a custom made cog for a particular sort of machinery - if you want him at his best.

 

[Moby]

Again context, I am not claiming he is a game changer by his own, a Ronaldo type player, but here he is in the perfect platform to use his abilities. He has Zanetti coming from behind and Riquelme's passes to latch on to and facing pretty much the poorest defender on the pitch. He is perfectly poised to make a difference, a pretty big difference.

Marcelo is a better defender than Salgado in my opinion. And in this case, he can match Caniggia's pace and probably has more stamina to last longer in the game. I haven't read the whole discussion regarding the Argentine and the Brazilian, but based on how I view the two, I'd back Marcelo to keep him quiet in this game, athleticism is not where you can expose Marcelo by a margin big enough allowing you to establish an upper hand in the game and Marcelo at Madrid has more consistent performance across the league against strong opponents than Caniggia's CV at Serie A shows. I'll be blunt here mate, I honestly fail to see the Argentine getting much in this game, he's always a threat due to his pace and directness but at the same time, once you can cover the grounds he's likely to exploit, he's unlikely to beat his man often and would end up losing the ball a fair few times.

 

[Moby]

He's also problematic - to elaborate - in the sense that he isn't a typical player either as a winger/wing forward or a striker/second striker. He's a bit of a custom made cog for a particular sort of machinery - if you want him at his best.

Precisely.

 

[Snow]

He was behind Schmeichel in Ballon d'Or vote:
5. Peter Schmeichel Denmark Manchester United 41 2 1 6 3 3 15
6. Brian Laudrup Denmark Fiorentina 32 1 1 4 3 5 14

And he was the second best player for Denmark in that tournament and without his flair they wouldn't have won anything - the team of workhorses needed two geniuses - in the goal and up front.

I've already commented on that vote. He was the more popular player so he got the more votes, that's how votes go. Even back home in Denmark he got more votes than Schmeichel who was the man of the tournament. It's just not fancy to give someone from the Danish league an award. You're also massively oversimplifying how the Danes won it. Larsen scored 3 from the #10 but Laudrup didn't manage to get on the score sheet in the competition. Jensen and Vilfort were very good but the defense was the biggest reason the team won it.

 

[harms]

He was the more popular player so he got the more votes, that's how votes go

You said that Laudrup got more votes than Schmeichel - he didn't, so that's not how votes go.
I know that Larsen scored 3 and Laudrup didn't but Laudrup and Schmeichel were the only ones from that Danish team that made TotT - and rightly so. He was fantastic

 

[Snow]

You said that Laudrup got more votes than Schmeichel - he didn't, so that's not how votes go.
I know that Larsen scored 3 and Laudrup didn't but Laudrup and Schmeichel were the only ones from that Danish team that made TotT - and rightly so. He was fantastic

Basically the biggest names got into that team. Only two from the winners made. Two defenders from France who's defense wasn't that special.

I said the Fifa thing. This one.

 

[Tuppet]

Marcelo is a better defender than Salgado in my opinion. And in this case, he can match Caniggia's pace and probably has more stamina to last longer in the game. I haven't read the whole discussion regarding the Argentine and the Brazilian, but based on how I view the two, I'd back Marcelo to keep him quiet in this game, athleticism is not where you can expose Marcelo by a margin big enough allowing you to establish an upper hand in the game and Marcelo at Madrid has more consistent performance across the league against strong opponents than Caniggia's CV at Serie A shows. I'll be blunt here mate, I honestly fail to see the Argentine getting much in this game, he's always a threat due to his pace and directness but at the same time, once you can cover the grounds he's likely to exploit, he's unlikely to beat his man often and would end up losing the ball a fair few times.

I guess its your prerogative to believe that Marcelo can handle him properly but I don't see it, because its not just about the ability to run and athleticism alone, its also about positioning and tracking back and basic defensive know how, I think I put enough evidence that he is just not that good at defending. But another thing is, you are not considering the impact of Zanetti behind Caniggia. I for the life of me can not see Marcelo handling both Zanetti and Caniggia, but as the dude would say thats like my opinion. I can see my team getting a lot of joy in both wings. Zanetti and Roberto Carlos are my best players and should not be discounted for their attacking threat. It would force Schnider and Modric out to defend against both of them, which would give room to Riquelme to weave his magic through the middle.

Zanetti -

 

[Tuppet]

He actually wasn't that flashy either - unless you mean it in a The Flash sort of way.

I hear what you're saying, though. He's a problematic player. I've always been of the opinion that given the right set-up, he could be extremely dangerous because of his particular skill set. But in a draft with these restrictions, he's bound to be questioned. His best, most consistent performances came for Argentina - especially in a Copa context.

He's also problematic - to elaborate - in the sense that he isn't a typical player either as a winger/wing forward or a striker/second striker. He's a bit of a custom made cog for a particular sort of machinery - if you want him at his best.

Love the pun anyway on Caniggia I kinda agree that he needs a set up tailored toward his strengths, with A marauding wingback behind him and his simple remit to pounce on every mistake Marcelo makes and with a visionary playmaker in Riquelme pinging passes to him I think he is in the right set up to make a difference here.

 

[Tuppet]

Another interesting thing to talk about is my threat from free kicks, with flying wingers getting plenty of free kick opportunities when Salgado and Marcelo have no option but to bring the player down. I have an absolute world class free kick taker in Roberto Carlos who is facing a rather shaky goalkeeper, that is a profitable route as well. I think this is one area where the quality of Keeper must be taken in account.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

But another thing is, you are not considering the impact of Zanetti behind Caniggia. I for the life of me can not see Marcelo handling both Zanetti and Caniggia, but as the dude would say thats like my opinion. I can see my team getting a lot of joy in both wings. Zanetti and Roberto Carlos are my best players and should not be discounted for their attacking threat.

Yes, as suggested previously I think this is a valid point – a key point to discuss, in fact. There's a marked contrast between the two teams – much more marked than we've seen in most of the other matches: An approach that is clearly narrower, both nominally and in reality, versus an approach that uses width explicitly.

What we're looking at is a genuine fullback + winger combo on both sides – versus two offensive fullbacks (to what degree they're downright shaky defensively isn't the most important point here, really – the fact that both are fielded as offensive is undeniable).

Given what emphasis you put on those two FB + winger combos it's evident that your opponent must commit his central midfielders to defensive duties to a significant degree – this really isn't debatable: If they don't, they'll allow you to have the run of the flanks – and that's suicidal in the long run, clearly so.

Conte's main function is to limit Riquelme's influence, so he can't be doing much donkey work/tracking out wide.

The real question, however, for me – is to what extent you'll be able to exploit your ability to load the flanks in this fashion. Ideally, you'd have someone in the hole who is mobile – who can drag Conte about the place a bit, and who can storm into the box to join Kluivert. You don't have that, though – Riquelme won't be doing much storming.

 

[Snow]

Our CB has more versatile goals in him than your wingers.

 

[Tuppet]

Yes, as suggested previously I think this is a valid point – a key point to discuss, in fact. There's a marked contrast between the two teams – much more marked than we've seen in most of the other matches: An approach that is clearly narrower, both nominally and in reality, versus an approach that uses width explicitly.

What we're looking at is a genuine fullback + winger combo on both sides – versus two offensive fullbacks (to what degree they're downright shaky defensively isn't the most important point here, really – the fact that both are fielded as offensive is undeniable).

Given what emphasis you put on those two FB + winger combos it's evident that your opponent must commit his central midfielders to defensive duties to a significant degree – this really isn't debatable: If they don't, they'll allow you to have the run of the flanks – and that's suicidal in the long run, clearly so.

Conte's main function is to limit Riquelme's influence, so he can't be doing much donkey work/tracking out wide.

The real question, however, for me – is to what extent you'll be able to exploit your ability to load the flanks in this fashion. Ideally, you'd have someone in the hole who is mobile – who can drag Conte about the place a bit, and who can storm into the box to join Kluivert. You don't have that, though – Riquelme won't be doing much storming.

I suppose thats a valid criticism, with my emphasis on counter and wide play it seem game is going to bypass from Riquelme a bit. So at half time I would make a sub which is going to make cutch very angry, but I am going to Sub in Balakov for Riquelme. Whatever slight loss of passing and vision we would have, would get in return for work rate and ability to counter with pace.

Balakov is another one of those who have a world class season to name -

Krassimir BALAKOV

1995International Class [Central Offensive Midfielder]
1996International Class [Central Offensive Midfielder]
1997World Class O [Offensive Midfielder]

@Marty1968 please make the substitution when you get time, cheers.

 

[Snow]

This guy is Spain's all-time top scorer in case anyone forgot (mute before watching), also 4 time La Liga's top scorer

 

[Snow]

Subbing in Balakov? Then we'll sub in ... no wait. We have Kaka.

Here, enjoy what more than 1 million people have enjoyed watching.

 

[Enigma_87]

I can see the same old debate for Marcelo and VdS so nothing changed really Now fouls?

Let's call it as it is ,our so called weakness is up against Caniggia and Bundesleague Laudrup. The first one flopped at Roma and wasn't anything special at club level. The latter was far off his peak and was appreciated for his international team rather than club performances and spent third of the time injured.

On the other hand we have a shaky CB who is up against Villa/Vialli and Kaka - a trio that scored more than 500 goals in the league and did it at the highest stage.

I don't think it's even close as a debate.

I really don't see how Tuppet will exploit those flanks. He has only one prolific goalscorer in his team whilst we have 3. Apart from Voller his other attackers record in the league is nothing short of average.

 

[Tuppet]

With Balakov occupying the central attacking midfield role, he would be looking to counter with pace, we get another magnificent dribbler who has the ability to ping beautiful balls forward, this goal pretty much show what my approach would be to the game and what I am expecting out of Balakov Caniggia connection.


A dribbling wizard himself -

A brilliant free kick taker with fantastic left peg, check out his performances with Stuttgart -

 

[Snow]

R.Carlos & B.Laudrup vs Salgado.. tough one for Snow/Enigma defence

A weird one. Laudrup doesn't do much defending and isn't used to play on the left. People were ripping on @KM for playing Griezmann on the right but he actually had history of doing so for Sociedad. Laudrup almost strictly a right side man. I mean he grew up with his brother who preferred to go a bit left so it's only natural.

R. Carlos is also bound to leave space with his attacking but luckily for Tuppet that Kaka and Villa hate spaces to exploit.

 

[Enigma_87]

Those case in points are from Sporting and national team again

Also Balakov was not that fast at 29-30 when he moved to Stuttgart. He lost a few steps and relied more on vision and passing.

This sub doesn't change much to be honest you just change one personel with the other. Balakov moved to Stuttgart at 29 years of age. He wasn't as fast as those Sporting days or the WC run.

First Laudrup for Ballon D'or and now this?

 

[Snow]

It's a bit weird calling this guy our third biggest threat in attack.

 

[Tuppet]

Its hardly about pace, its about the ability to make a run toward box when my wide forwards and wing back have started a counter attack. Balakov is perfect for that role, with his runs, tenacity and a fantastic shot. See how this is happening from both wings -

 

[Enigma_87]

Its hardly about pace, its about the ability to make a run toward box when my wide forwards and wing back have started a counter attack. Balakov is perfect for that role, with his runs, tenacity and a fantastic shot. See how this is happening from both wings -

2 posts above he had pace. Now it's hardly about pace?

 

[harms]

Our CB has more versatile goals in him than your wingers.

Oh, I thought that you're a neutral - and here I was, trying to change your mind about your opponent's team

 

[Tuppet]

Pretty much the whole argument in last few post from our opponents seem to be "I've got more strikers, I win" ignoring the fact that they are getting owned on wings. As for Luadrup I don't know what else to do, here are Kicker ratings -

Brian LAUDRUP

1989International Class [Forward]
1990International Class [Forward]
1991 national level or below
1992International Class [Offensive Midfielder]

I've already posted with proof that he was the top 10 attacker in the Bundesliga AND has freaking Roberto Carlos behind him, if thats not enough I hold my hands up and surrender.

 

[harms]

I suppose thats a valid criticism, with my emphasis on counter and wide play it seem game is going to bypass from Riquelme a bit. So at half time I would make a sub which is going to make cutch very angry, but I am going to Sub in Balakov for Riquelme. Whatever slight loss of passing and vision we would have, would get in return for work rate and ability to counter with pace.

Balakov is another one of those who have a world class season to name -

Krassimir BALAKOV

1995International Class [Central Offensive Midfielder]
1996International Class [Central Offensive Midfielder]
1997World Class O [Offensive Midfielder]

@Marty1968 please make the substitution when you get time, cheers.

You can't make this substitution, you have only 2 outfield players from La Liga