La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - QF Gio vs VivaJanuzaj/MJJ

Who will win with player peaks in the specified leagues (not career peaks)?


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Marty1968

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Please remember that players should only be judged by their performances in their assigned leagues for this draft (not career peak)

vs

Team Gio..............................................................................vs.......................................Team VivaJanuzaj/MJJ

 

Marty1968

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Team Gio Tactics

Our 4-3-3 marries defensive strength with a creative and swashbuckling attack. The central defensive axis isrock solid harnessing the raw aggression and grizzle of Carles Puyol with the all-roundedness of one of the Bundesliga's greatest ever defenders in Rune Bratseth. Behind them is Jose Luis Chilavert whose shot-stopping ability, smoothness on the ball, and sweeper-keeping complement the pair in front of him. The axis is flanked by Stefan Turbo Reuter on the right, a rapid and tidy defender but also a relentless overlapper, a quality shared by Spanish and Barcelona left wing-back Sergi who dominated many a flank throughout the 1990s.

The powerful and creative midfield is anchored by serial winner Didier Deschamps in the same effective way he provided the platform for Juventus and France's dominance through the second half of the 1990s. On his right with box-to-box duties is Michael Ballack who was outstanding at getting on the end of things but equally was a formidable and intelligent presence in the heart of midfield. Serie A Juan Sebastian Veron was a hell of a player, regularly overshadowing many of the other great playmakers of the late 1990s, and his light always burned brightest when partnered with solid workaholics (for Deschamps see Simeone or Dino Baggio) who were happy to let him get on showcasing his passing range and vision.

Veron renews a successful club partnership with the best player on the park in Pavel Nedved. He should test Sagnol to the limit but will equally have the freedom and inclination to roam and hunt for shooting opportunities and gaps in the back line. On the right is a Real Madrid legend in Michel, a classic right midfielder whose 4th place in the Ballon D'Or is only bettered as a wide midfielder in this pool by Nedved. Together that wing partnership will stretch the defence, present a variety of attacking threats and work back in behind the ball when required. The hub of the attack is Zlatan Ibrahimovic, the standout line-leader in the pool, who will relish the space, nearby work rate and service he'll get here.

WHY WE WILL WIN:
  • Control of the midfield. Everything you look for in a functioning midfield trio is present - graft and positional discipline in Deschamps, playmaking and laser vision in Veron, and a box-to-box merchant of the highest order in Ballack. Equally all three can put a shift in, all three can pass, and all three were intelligent and proven at the highest level. By contrast, there are critical gaps in the opposition midfield that should be exposed here and should leave the opposition attack starved of service.
  • Wide threats that will get the ball and create problems. Pavel Nedved was an almost unstoppable force of nature at times. He is up against Sagnol, one of the better full-backs in the pool, but who isn't quite on Nedved's level. On the other flank Michel is what this draft is all about, both for his exceptional La Liga longevity, but equally his peak, best-in-Europe-in-his-position performance level. He too will test and stretch Abidal.
Otherwise I'd suggest we're fairly evenly matched. Bratseth was exceptional at covering in behind and should help to negate much of Eto'o's threat. If Muller plays on the left then he will attack the centre and meet with the imposing presence of Puyol. If Savicevic is on the right he will tuck inside time and time again into Deschamps' territory. Regardless we will always ensure that one or both full-backs tuck in to deal with a very central front three. With that defensive set-up and control of the midfield, we should be well placed.
 

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Team VivaJanuzaj/MJJ Tactics

Tactics:
Our team will sit deep and let Gio's midfield control most of the possession without giving them room to penetrate our defence, using the passing range of Sneijder & Guardiola to execute deadly counter attacks against Gio's weakest side - his defence. Our front three's pace is unquestionable, all three players are marvellous on and off the ball and they will create their own chances while Gio's defence is least ready. All three of them are incredibly dangerous on the counter attack and Gio's defence won't handle them.

Eto'o using his speed on the counter and he's always the fastest one


Savicevic showing how good he is on the ball at CL final sending Milan to a counter attack:


And Thomas Muller using his tremendous work rate to steal the ball and execute the counter perfectly.


Defence:
Abidal is playing as the tucked LB, with Sagnol being offered more freedom to bomb forward and put Nedved's work rate to the test. Abidal is the perfect player to play the tucked LB role as he is excellent on the ball but more importantly, he is a beast of a defender, playing both LB and CB this hybrid role will make sure our defence is rock solid. Between these two we have a rock solid partnership of Thiago Silva & Walter Samuel, the latter a CL winner and the former one of the best CBs and leaders in Brazil's history. Silva-Samuel, both come from the rough and extremely physical Seria A and they are up for creating the wall in front of German top keeper Stefan Klos.

Midfield:
Our midfield is going to sit deep and concede Gio's superiority in the central area. Our plan is to frustrate the route from the central area and to move on quick counters through the flanks. Pep Guardiola who is one of the best pivots in the history of the game, is getting a muscle reinforcement by Bundesliga's own Sami Khedira. Both will stay rather deep and try to limit space for Ballack/Veron to work in. Above them, we've got CL winning Wesly Sneijder, Sneijder's role is very similar to his Inter role in 2010 in which he led Inter to CL glory as the final's MOTM, and to 4rd place ballon D'Or.

Attack:
Our attack is one of the best in the draft. 3 unbelievable players joined together in a very fluid attack based on goal threat wherever you look at. We already had Thomas Muller, whose leadership and technique at this age are only comparable to the amount of titles he won providing almost 1 goal/assist every game in his entire Bayern Munich career, and his versatility means he can play anywhere in the front four. We massively upgraded our team by replacing Robinho with Dejan Savicevic. The Milan maestro from Montenegro is a joy to watch, Milan's big leader in the attack after the years of Gullit and Van Basten, Gullit led Milan to CL glory in 1994. And to top the lot, we've got upfront one of the deadliest striker I've seen play in Samuel Eto'o, who is playing his classic #9 role he excelled in Barcelona, scoring in almost 1 goal per game ratio which resulted at him being voted 2nd straight FIFPro World XI and third in Fifa World Player of the Year, making him second most successful African player after George Weah.

Route to Win and Main Anecdotes:
  • Conceding the Midfield Battle to Hit on the Break - Gio's midfield trio in the central area is superb, Veron-Ballack-Deschamps are top notch separately and together, so we've taken a decision to concede the midfield battle and use what we have. Instead of chasing our midfielders to war against these players, we're going to instruct them to sit more deep, and fight them in much tighter areas. Without a #10 in his team, we don't need a water carrier to deal with that attack, especially when we have a tucked LB who won't be adventurous in his movements forward, we've got too many players defending for them to find space in.
  • Sneijder's role - Sneijder is playing exactly the role he's played in the 2010 heroic CL bunker against Barcelona and in the Final against Bayern where he won Fans' Man of the Match. The CAM role, with two defensive driven midfielders behind him and let him just use his passing and technique to unleash the counters.
CL Finals vs Bayern:

  • Attackers vs Defenders - Both teams have strong attacks, but ours tops it any day with Michel being out of depth in comparisons to the rest of them. On top of that, we have the much much better defenders. Gio's left side of Bartseth-Sergi will find it very very difficult against the pace of Savicevic, not to mention Eto'o who can beat Puyol and Bartesth with pace easily. Reuter vs Muller is as interesting and close as Nedved vs Sagnol on the other side, but the rest of the defenders are really incomparable. Michel won't be able to do much against Abidal, and with the lack of space and the midfield sitting tight and narrow, Ibrahimovic will have much rougher time against Samuel-Silva, who both faced him before.
  • History is on our side - We've got a few of these: 1. Ibrahimovic(Juve) faced W.Samuel(Inter) on three occasions, scoring only one goal and giving out 0 assists. 2. Sagnol faced the threat of Nedved 4 times in his Bayern Munich career, unable to shut him out completely Sagnol impressively managed to hold Nedved back on 1 assist and 1 goal in these 4 games. And on the other side - 3. Savicevic faced off against Sergi only one time in his career and that was the 1994 CL final, where Milan, led by Savicevic won 4-0, and our lad scoring this beauty:

  • 4. Savicevic also faced off Gio's central defender Bartseth only once, and guess what? that game Savicevic scored Milan's only goals with Bartseth failing to mark him for the goal:
 

Marty1968

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@Rado_N can you make a poll for us as always?

Who will win with player peaks in the specified leagues (not career peaks)?
Team Gio
Team VivaJanuzaj/MJJ

Cheers Rado!
 

Gio

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Both teams have strong attacks, but ours tops it any day with Michel being out of depth in comparisons to the rest of them.
Whoah, settle down there. Highest places in the Ballon D'Or:

Team Gio:
Nedved - 1st
Michel - 4th
Ibra - 7th in Serie A

Team Viva/ MJJ:
Eto'o - 5th
Muller - 5th
Savicevic - 9th in Serie A (and almost entirely for his CL performances as opposed to the league)

So Michel is out of his depth when he has a higher Ballon D'Or placing than any one of your attack? And that 4th place was earned in a non-tournament-year and was awarded entirely on club performances.
 

Enigma_87

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Alright let's kick it off.

In my view and from first sight - equally matched sides. I like a lot about Gio and both MJJ/Viva's sides. I like how Gio tucked in Veron in the middle of midfield with Ballack having more advanced instructions. Overall excellent midfield with Nedved complimenting and Ibra up top who was excellent upgrade.

Now for Viva/MJJ - great looking front 3. Solid midfield with Guardiola and Khedira holding, the latter in box to box role.

I'd say the defence is equally matched up. Gio has slight advantage in midfield, while I like MJJ front three better, largely due to Savichevic compared to Michel.

Tough choice to go with, if I'm to choose on the spot MJJ/Viva would edge it for having IMO a bit better attack. But will see how discussions go before voting.
 

Gio

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Sneijder's role - Sneijder is playing exactly the role he's played in the 2010 heroic CL bunker against Barcelona and in the Final against Bayern where he won Fans' Man of the Match. The CAM role, with two defensive driven midfielders behind him and let him just use his passing and technique to unleash the counters.
Except Guardiola was never 'defensive driven' and it's debateable whether Khedira has ever been that defensively solid either. Cambiasso and Motta they ain't. And that platform Sneijder enjoyed just isn't present here.
 

Gio

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largely due to Savichevic compared to Michel.
Fair comments all in all but I have to challenge this. Savicevic struggled in Serie A and saved his best performances for Europe. Unfortunately those performances are irrelevant for the purposes of this draft. I love the guy, he was a sexy, silky footballer who I loved watching at Red Star. But like most of the graduates from that side, he didn't really translate that into Serie A and if it wasn't for his sometimes sublime performances in Europe, he wouldn't have been a priority pick in this draft. He wasn't a total flop and came good in the end, but in reality expecting a top-end performance from him here is not in keeping with what he did week in, week out in Serie A.
 

Enigma_87

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Fair comments all in all but I have to challenge this. Savicevic struggled in Serie A and saved his best performances for Europe. Unfortunately those performances are irrelevant for the purposes of this draft. I love the guy, he was a sexy, silky footballer who I loved watching at Red Star. But like most of the graduates from that side, he didn't really translate that into Serie A and if it wasn't for his sometimes sublime performances in Europe, he wouldn't have been a priority pick in this draft. He wasn't a total flop and came good in the end, but in reality expecting a top-end performance from him here is not in keeping with what he did week in, week out in Serie A.
Well to be fair I think CL and european football have to be taken into consideration as well, largely due to having direct impact on the league form as well. You'd see players rested for CL and generally conserving energy in the league, especially against lesser sides, which is different from example to WC and Euro form which takes part in the Summer.

As for Savicevic he's one of my favorites from that Red Star side, Piksi the other one and of course Panchev, Jugovic, Prosinecki and the likes.

Savicevic found it hard to adjust at the beginning in Milan and didn't have many opportunities, however after 94 he had 2 season when IMO he was close to his top form and especially in CL as you mentioned reached his full potential.

As for the league he'll probably be remembered for this assist:


and this one:

and excellent against Fio 2 games.
 

Ecstatic

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Team VivaJanuzaj/MJJ Tactics
  • History is on our side - We've got a few of these: 1. Ibrahimovic(Juve) faced W.Samuel(Inter) on three occasions, scoring only one goal and giving out 0 assists. 2. Sagnol faced the threat of Nedved 4 times in his Bayern Munich career, unable to shut him out completely Sagnol impressively managed to hold Nedved back on 1 assist and 1 goal in these 4 games.
Ibramihovic & Nedved: bad memories for Sagnol

Juventus 1-0 Bayern - Nedved scored thanks to Zlatan - October 2004
http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsle...968/match=1077181/postmatch/report/index.html





Bayern 0-1 Juventus- Del Piero scored thanks to Zlatan - November 2004
http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2004/matches/round=1968/match=1077197/index.html




Bayern 2-1 Juventus- Zlatan scored - October 2005
http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2005/matches/round=2201/match=1100282/index.html




Juventus 2-1 Trezeguet scored thanks to Zlatan/Nedved - November 2005
http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2005/matches/round=2201/match=1100298/index.html



 

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Close game between 2 different "philosophies" :)
 

harms

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Don't like Muller on the left and Pep - Khedira as a soaking pressure defensive pairing. Never rated Khedira that highly, plus he was always more about the constant movement and less about intelligent and positionally astute play.

Savicevic form in Serie A is also questionable, at least as I remember it - his best Milan performances came in CL (most noticeably in their demolition of Barca in the final, of course). The argument about Ibra vs Samuel isn't relevant also, it's obvious that Ibra's league peak was in Milan and not in Juve.

Gio's team looks more coherent and filled with better individualities. And his midfield unit is absolutely awesome - with Aldo's gone, it's undoubtedly the best midfield in the draft.
 

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I will post later some GIFs regarding the Sneijder-Etoo connection to be fair !
 

Enigma_87

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Don't like Muller on the left and Pep - Khedira as a soaking pressure defensive pairing. Never rated Khedira that highly, plus he was always more about the constant movement and less about intelligent and positionally astute play.

Savicevic form in Serie A is also questionable, at least as I remember it - his best Milan performances came in CL (most noticeably in their demolition of Barca in the final, of course). The argument about Ibra vs Samuel isn't relevant also, it's obvious that Ibra's league peak was in Milan and not in Juve.

Gio's team looks more coherent and filled with better individualities. And his midfield unit is absolutely awesome - with Aldo's gone, it's undoubtedly the best midfield in the draft.
Last year at Inter?
 

Gio

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Well to be fair I think CL and european football have to be taken into consideration as well, largely due to having direct impact on the league form as well. You'd see players rested for CL and generally conserving energy in the league, especially against lesser sides, which is different from example to WC and Euro form which takes part in the Summer.
Don't agree. It's a decent gauge for a player's overall ability, but completely irrelevant for this draft. The whole premise of the draft is crystal clear - league performances only!

To be honest I wasn't going to go large on why this isn't match-winning Savicevic. But all the bollocks about Michel not being up to par relative to him has forced my hand. I agree he picked it up between 1994-96, but between 1992-94 and 1996-98 he wasn't good. Again even giving him some leeway for injuries towards the end, it still seems likely that we'll not get a match-winning performance from him.

AC Milan’s then coach, Fabio Capello, did not exactly welcome Savicevic with open arms, viewing him as one of Berlusconi’s extravagant signings. Coupled with the three foreigner rule (only three non-Italian’s were permitted per match squad), Savicevic found playing time sparse. It is unsurprising given he was competing with the likes of Dutch trio, Ruud Gullit, Frank Rijkaard and Marco Van Basten, as well as Frenchman, Jean Pierre Papin and Croatian Zvomir Boban. As a result, Savicevic only graced the pitch ten times during his debut season and didn’t score until the end of January, his first of only four goals all campaign. Milan won the Scudetto for a second consecutive season and made it to the Champions League final, losing 1-0 to French club Marseille. Symptomatic of his first season in Milan, the Montenegrin didn’t even find his way into the squad and looked set to leave the club after a tough start to life in Italy.

Things changed for the better during the following season for a number of reasons. Firstly, despite Capello’s wish to offload the expansive midfielder, Berlusconi was adamant that the creative flair of Savicevic should not only stay at the club, but also be given more playing time. Competition for one of the three foreign player berths was also made easier. Van Basten was in the process of having a year’s sabbatical to recover from his ankle injury (alas a futile attempt as this injury proved career ending) while Gullit and Rijkaard left to Sampdoria and Ajax respectively. Thus Savicevic, Boban, and Papin became the only foreigners in the squad for the first part of the season.

Preseason started well with Savicevic a regular. But it was not long before Capello started to show his lack of confidence in the Montenegrin, repeatedly substituting him for Italian international Roberto Donadoni. It was only a matter of time before he lost his starting place to the Italian. After not appearing for five league games, the highly strung midfielder made his feelings known via the Italian media and eventually confronted his coach to try and rectify the increasingly frustrating situation.

A heated showdown with some course language followed, but this seemed to have the desired effect and the man from Titograd finally got some playing time. Although, in true Capello style, the veteran coach ensured the midfielder knew who was boss by leaving him out of the squad for both the Derby Della Madonnina (Milan Derby) and the Juventus clash. Starts were sporadic and tensions rose again after Savicevic was dropped to the bench for the Champions League match against Anderlecht, and he was out of the squad completely for the Intercontinental game against Brazilian side Sao Paulo. The former Red Star man demonstrated his fiery temperament again, refusing to take his place among the substitutes against Anderlecht and then questioning Capello’s tactics through the Italian newspapers.

The questioning of Milan’s tactics compared to the previous two season’s was perhaps justified. The last two campaigns had produced title winning sides playing a more expansive style of play. Defensive duties were important, but there was more of an attacking emphasis and Milan had scored 65 and 75 goals in an 18 team division, with goal differences of +33 and +53 respectively. Under the new defensive style, the creative play of Savicevic was shackled and the “work, work, work” ethic of constant and incessant pressing was not to Dejan’s liking. It was only his friendship with Berlusconi that persuaded the Montenegrin to stay in Milan. This friendship did bear fruit however, and in the second half of the season, Savicevic secured a regular starting place.

Milan won a third straight Scudetto but the creative flair had been curtailed by the conservatism of Capello’s new tactics. Savicevic suffered as he failed to score in the domestic season. But he was not the only one, with striker Papin saying “If Capello's system looks boring from the stands, it's even worse to play in.” The impact of those tactics was such that, the following season, the Italian Football Association implemented the three points for a win system in hope of eradicating such ‘tedious’ Calcio.

While Savicevic struggled domestically, he excelled on the European scene. Despite watching most Champions League games from the sidelines prior to the winter break, his recall to the side for the semi-final against French Champions Monaco inspired the Rossoneri to a 3-0 victory. This set up a final against the “Dream Team” of Johan Cryuff’s Barcelona.

Nobody gave Milan a chance and Capello’s strategy had been dismantled with the injuries and suspensions. First choice centre back’s Franco Baresi and Alessandro Costacurta were both suspended, midfielder Gianluigi Lentini was still recovering from a horrific car crash and striker Jean Pierre Papin also missed the final through injury, replaced by veteran striker Daniele Massaro. Capello changed not only his formation but his mindset and decided to take the game to Barcelona. This suited Savicevic perfectly. Gone was the rigid 4-4-2, replaced by a more flexible 4-1-4-1 system, with Marcel Desially sitting in front of an inexperienced defence containing Paolo Maldini and Christian Panucci.

Savicevic was inspiring and his performance is renowned as one of the best in a European Cup Final. Broken free from his defensive shackles, he ran the game showing why Berlusconi was right to keep him at the club. He created the Diavolo’s first goal, playing a perfect through ball for Massaro in the 27th minute. He was also involved Milan’s second, after a 16 pass move was finished off by Massaro once again.

But Savicevic’s true moment of genius was yet to come. Just after half time, Savicevic raced down the right to close down Miguel Angel Nadal. Dispossessing the Spanish international defender, he then noticed Andoni Zubizarreta off his line and, from just outside the box, clipped an audacious and perfectly weighted lob over Zubizaretta into the net. It was one of the great European Cup goals and undoubtedly the Montenegrin’s magnum opus. To cap it all off, he was involved in the fourth and final goal, as his shot hit the post, allowing Desailly to finish the rebound. Savicevic had played the game of his life and inspired Milan to a famous 4-0 victory.

Unfortunately for the playmaker, the season after Capello reverted back to type and Milan struggled, finishing fourth in Serie A and losing in the Intercontinental cup final. Despite his injury travails, Savicevic still scored nine goals in 19 appearances, including four in one game against Bari at the Stadio San Nicola, the ground where he won the European Cup with Red Star Belgrade.

The 1995-96 campaign was to be Savicevic’s most productive in a Milan shirt. Capello bowed to pressure and played a more expansive style of football and this saw the Yugoslav international make 23 Serie A appearances, scoring six goals in the process. He endeared himself to the Milan faithful further after scoring against city rivals Inter in the Derby Della Madonnina, while a memorable performance against Parma highlighted all his skills and technical ability. He left Parma defenders Fernando Couto and Luigi Apolloni in his wake before laying the ball to Roberto Baggio to score and later added a goal of his own. The Rossoneri claimed their fifteenth Scudetto, finishing eight points above Juventus.

Over the next two seasons, the Montenegrin’s playing time gradually diminished and he would eventually leave the club for an ill-fated return to Red Star Belgrade. He finished his career at Rapid Vienna, happy in his free role and devoid of any defensive responsibilities.
 

Enigma_87

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Don't agree. It's a decent gauge for a player's overall ability, but completely irrelevant for this draft. The whole premise of the draft is crystal clear - league performances only!

To be honest I wasn't going to go large on why this isn't match-winning Savicevic. But all the bollocks about Michel not being up to par relative to him has forced my hand. I agree he picked it up between 1994-96, but between 1992-94 and 1996-98 he wasn't good. Again even giving him some leeway for injuries towards the end, it still seems likely that we'll not get a match-winning performance from him.
Savicevic was up against quite some competition with Gullit and van Basten initially in the team, who were absolute starters and along with some quality players around who also had to get some games and struggling in the new league it took time to get a proper crack in the team. Later on as you said injuries pretty much finished him.
 

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Don't like Muller on the left and Pep - Khedira as a soaking pressure defensive pairing. Never rated Khedira that highly, plus he was always more about the constant movement and less about intelligent and positionally astute play.

Savicevic form in Serie A is also questionable, at least as I remember it - his best Milan performances came in CL (most noticeably in their demolition of Barca in the final, of course). The argument about Ibra vs Samuel isn't relevant also, it's obvious that Ibra's league peak was in Milan and not in Juve.

Gio's team looks more coherent and filled with better individualities. And his midfield unit is absolutely awesome - with Aldo's gone, it's undoubtedly the best midfield in the draft.
Agree.

Let's talk about the fight Ibra/Samuel.

November 2004 - Inter 2-2 Juve - Iba scored but it was a penalty
October 2005 - Juve 2-0 Inter -Nedved scored (free-kick) and Trezeguet (following a free-kick of Zlatan)
February 2006 - Inter 1-2 Juve- Ibra & Samuel scored
November 2010 - Iba scored but it was a penalty
August 2011 - Milan 2-1 Inter - Ibra & Sneijder scored
May 2012 - Inter 4-2 - Ibra scored 2 goals (including 1 penalty)


Let's look at Ibra (Serie A peak) against Inter of Samuel (Serie A peak) in 2010



Tonight, some GIFs about the Etoo-Sneijder connection.
 

VivaJanuzaj

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Muller is as vesattlille as it comes and there shouldn't be a problem for anyone that he's coming from the left because his versatility is a plus and not a bloody minus like some people treat it. With Gio's full backs attacking and the threat from our passers from deep and that front three's pace, there's no way he'll win it. Even with the midfield control, which we will gladly concede as it's efficient for our playing style.
Abidal tucked in as LCB is a defensive plus we have and Gio don't, and he will pay for the higher line of defence.
 

harms

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Muller is as vesattlille as it comes and there shouldn't be a problem for anyone that he's coming from the left because his versatility is a plus and not a bloody minus like some people treat it
I don't think that anybody treats his versatility as a problem, but, for me, Muller is better as a second striker or coming from the right and the left winger spot is probably his least impressive position up front (I'd even play him as a striker before putting him on the left). That's just my view of him, you can argue with me, of course
 

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I'm a little unsure of how are we supposed to evaluate Muller on the left given how little he's played there.


Are we supposed to look at him as the peak one who played as an SS or RW here, even though he's playing on the opposite side, where he's actually played very rarely in comparison?
 

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I don't think that anybody treats his versatility as a problem, but, for me, Muller is better as a second striker or coming from the right and the left winger spot is probably his least impressive position up front (I'd even play him as a striker before putting him on the left). That's just my view of him, you can argue with me, of course
Sorta agree. I myself don't recall watching him playing down the left much.
 

harms

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And to mark out Savicevic is ridicules really, the best player on the pitch after Nedved
On the league form I'd have Ibra, Muller, Eto'O and Veron over him. Not sure how he is the second best player on the pitch.
 

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When Savicevic is playing the worst defender in the match who is requested to push forward, against two defenders who Savicevic scored against the only times he played against them, I'd rate him very highly. While he's best creative player is facing Sagnol.
If CL performances at that club level mean nothing about the player, not judge but mean something, than I don't know what we're doing here.
With our defence so packed with great defenders and sitting so deep I just don't know how they'll break it, especially without a proper #10 to pull the strings in the final third. But it's 3-0 Gio very soon so there's that.
As for Muller on the left, because we play mostly counter attacks I don't think his initial position matters too much. It's not like we're trying to battle the midfield and he's requested to push wide and create space, he's supposed to receive a ball and link up with Eto'o-Savicevic-Sneijder and just move between channels to create quick and lethal chances, I'd say that front three of Eto'o-Muller-Savicevic is perfect for that.

Anyway, I'm sorry but it turns out it's not the best day for me, and I don't really have the energy or time today to get into a petty argument trying to highlight weaknesses that don't exist.
 

Gio

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I don't think we need a no10 when we have:
  • Two superb no8s - one of whom whose vision, passing and creativity matches up to just about any 10 - and the other who was brilliant at bursting through the midfield and defensive lines. Even moreso when it's Guardiola/Khedira who are offering the questionable off-the-ball resistance.
  • A no9 who excels as a no10, can do both jobs equally effectively and has the space and freedom in our set-up to create.
 

VivaJanuzaj

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Would be great if you could provide some examples of him starting on the left.
When Bayern played more direct football he played all over the place, because his movement between defenders is so brilliant it doesn't matter to him where he starts. He's one of the most intelligent footballers in recent years.
But if you insist:

Brilliant movement on the left to find Robben coming from deep.


This one he doesn't score, and luckily for him Ribery is there to finish, but get a load of that movement!


This one is classic - Bayern clear a corner and Muller from his own edge of the box runs half the pitch, and passes to Robben who scores



I can come up with more which is not that hard considering he has 6 goals and 8 assists in 19 matches. 14 in 19 should be enough to prove his case.
 

The Stain

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Funny how you guys said having Mascherano at DM was questionable yet here you have Müller at LW. A player that has played less in that position in the league than Masch at DM for Barca..
 

Moby

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I guess in those games Ribery started on the left, though. I would have agreed in a normal draft where the ability is what matters, but since this is specific league based, it makes things really tricky and it becomes important to analyse gametime and performance in the said specific role which is why I trying to dig a little deeper. I can see your point though, on a proper counter where Gio has left half the pitch for your players to run into, it probably won't matter much. Though if he's got his players back in time, then it can make more of a difference.
 

VivaJanuzaj

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Funny how you guys said having Mascherano at DM was questionable yet here you have Müller at LW. A player that has played less in that position in the league than Masch at DM for Barca..
Funny how I always kept saying I don't see any problem with Mascherano's role so basically you're just assuming I said it. Gee, thanks.
 

VivaJanuzaj

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I guess in those games Ribery started on the left, though. I would have agreed in a normal draft where the ability is what matters, but since this is specific league based, it makes things really tricky and it becomes important to analyse gametime and performance in the said specific role which is why I trying to dig a little deeper. I can see your point though, on a proper counter where Gio has left half the pitch for your players to run into, it probably won't matter much. Though if he's got his players back in time, then it can make more of a difference.
Muller will be the one facing the toughest defender in Gio's team anyway, but with Savicevic and Eto'o there the linkup will just be deadly. Sergi is given freedom to run forward for some reason and Savicevic will drift inside as he played a lot of time between the RW & the #10 role, and will find the runs of Eto'o and Muller, and vice versa. Savicevic and Eto'o will remain two on two against Puyol and Bartseth, some times Deschamps will make it at time, sometimes he'll get caught on when he'll close down Sneijder and try to prevent him from sending the team forward. Either way, you need better defenders and a more conservative approach from at least one full back if you want to beat these players on the counter.
 

VivaJanuzaj

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My apologies then. At least MJJ did.
It's cool mate, but you've also assumed I was going to vote against you when I was actually one of the most judgmental posters to both sides, every point I made I said what my problem was with both manger's claims and Mascherano was never one of them. I don't think it matters much with him, the fact that he's not playing exactly the role his playing for Barca means shit as far as you can tell from the role he is playing for Barca he'd fit for this role, thats all that matters. We're a bit over the average football watcher in terms of knowledge really and I think we can give ourselves some credit on roles player can or can't make. Muller is one of the smartest guys in football for years, I don't see an issue here rather than try and find a weak spot in a front three who hasn't got it. Gio is really trying to make it look like his defence can hold that trio without proper cover while his players will easily crack a very deep-sitting defence with top notch defenders. We've seen how hard it can be for teams to break a strong deep defence, like Barca vs Mourinho's Inter in 2010, and guess what? 3 of our players was in that winning team who mastered the defensive approach and hitting on the counter, only now it's a better Eto'o partnered with much better players than Milito and Pandev.
 

Moby

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Muller will be the one facing the toughest defender in Gio's team anyway, but with Savicevic and Eto'o there the linkup will just be deadly. Sergi is given freedom to run forward for some reason and Savicevic will drift inside as he played a lot of time between the RW & the #10 role, and will find the runs of Eto'o and Muller, and vice versa. Savicevic and Eto'o will remain two on two against Puyol and Bartseth, some times Deschamps will make it at time, sometimes he'll get caught on when he'll close down Sneijder and try to prevent him from sending the team forward. Either way, you need better defenders and a more conservative approach from at least one full back if you want to beat these players on the counter.
I can definitely see Dejan getting some joy against Sergi. He was possibly a touch quicker than the Spaniard who was pretty quick himself. I remember Cruyff (RIP :( ) saying how he used Sergi to basically tire the opposition wide players as they had to track him back. If you are using Dejan in a more forward role, wouldn't that mean Sergi would be able to double up with Nedved on Sagnol? An already tough battle for the Frenchman but with an extra man it could prove decisive. I guess it's a risk worth taking having two players always up front, can work both ways.
 

The Stain

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It's cool mate
Yes, and personally i agree. I've said this a few times in different threads. If a player has sufficient games in a position and we can envision the player working in the role then i see no problem with it.

It's just that the majority consensus in the draft has been leaning towards the opposite of this sentiment. Müller isn't a conventional winger and he will look for space to exploit across the final third, i just think you'd benefit more from having him starting on the right.

I told Aldo in reinforcements something like "if they pick Savicevic and plays him on the left then fair enough". I think you have that option here. It's harder to find stats on him but i'm sure he played more on the left than Müller. For example there's proof that he played as a left winger against Bari in a Serie A match. He happened to score 4 goals in that game. Scored against Fiorentina from the left as well. He's been used on the wings a lot but i always thought he used to play behind the striker.

He wasn't exactly known for his workrate so having him on the left would also benefit the team as a whole since he'd have a more defensive fullback behind him.
 

VivaJanuzaj

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I can definitely see Dejan getting some joy against Sergi. He was possibly a touch quicker than the Spaniard who was pretty quick himself. I remember Cruyff (RIP :( ) saying how he used Sergi to basically tire the opposition wide players as they had to track him back. If you are using Dejan in a more forward role, wouldn't that mean Sergi would be able to double up with Nedved on Sagnol? An already tough battle for the Frenchman but with an extra man it could prove decisive. I guess it's a risk worth taking having two players always up front, can work both ways.
With the defensive sitting so deep, that double up won't necessarily be a bigger problem for me than him. Yes, I can't doubt that it will give him an out from the right, but I say our joy from Sergi bombing forward will be much greater. Every time he'll be stuck at our half a long ball from Guardiola/Sneijder/Sagnol will meet the pace of Savicevic, wether it's directly to him or by a pass from his fellow attackers who are very good on the ball. So be it, he'll have a route to goal from Sergi/Nedved crossing at the left flank. My 3 CBs will deal with his crossing better than his 2 CBs will deal against our conters.
Yes, and personally i agree. I've said this a few times in different threads. If a player has sufficient games in a position and we can envision the player working in the role then i see no problem with it.

It's just that the majority consensus in the draft has been leaning towards the opposite of this sentiment. Müller isn't a conventional winger and he will look for space to exploit across the final third, i just think you'd benefit more from having him starting on the right.

I told Aldo in reinforcements something like "if they pick Savicevic and plays him on the left then fair enough". I think you have that option here. It's harder to find stats on him but i'm sure he played more on the left than Müller. For example there's proof that he played as a left winger against Bari in a Serie A match. He happened to score 4 goals in that game. Scored against Fiorentina from the left as well. He's been used on the wings a lot but i always thought he used to play behind the striker.

He wasn't exactly known for his workrate so having him on the left would also benefit the team as a whole since he'd have a more defensive fullback behind him.
That's where I disagree, maybe on a possession based game with the defensive line up on the pitch you'd want Savicevic's left leg on the left and Muller's right on the right to open up defensive setups, in this case you don't. When teams go fast on the counter, the 3 on 3 situations will see our front three drifting all over the place. Eto'o will move both right and left with his movement and will draw Puyol, Muller will mostly cut inside but as seen on gifs can also push to the left flank and deliver lethal through balls, and Savicevic will move between the middle and the wing. With Abidal there Muller doesn't really need to come back so deep, and we're sitting the rest of our team deep to have the option of unleashing that trio, with Sneijder pulling the strings when needed. When we do have the ball and build slowly, which will happen less in the game, Sneijder's natural movements to the left wing will allow Muller that exact move between SS and the middle and cutting inside from the left. Let's not forget his cutting inside to his stronger foot too, a through ball from Savicevic or a one two with Eto'o and it's Muller 1 on 1 with his stronger foot facing the goal.
 

Moby

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With the defensive sitting so deep, that double up won't necessarily be a bigger problem for me than him. Yes, I can't doubt that it will give him an out from the right, but I say our joy from Sergi bombing forward will be much greater. Every time he'll be stuck at our half a long ball from Guardiola/Sneijder/Sagnol will meet the pace of Savicevic, wether it's directly to him or by a pass from his fellow attackers who are very good on the ball. So be it, he'll have a route to goal from Sergi/Nedved crossing at the left flank. My 3 CBs will deal with his crossing better than his 2 CBs will deal against our conters.
Yes, like I said, it works both ways. The tactic of keeping Dejan forward gives you a huge advantage on the counter, but also for Gio it makes Nedved's task easier, if Sergi overlaps Sagnol will have to cover him leaving Nedved in space. If Sagnol sticks with Nedved, a cross for Ibra in the middle is on the cards.

Normally I don't think a manager will usually take that risk even if that means their counter attacking threat going down. Usually managers would be more pragmatic and instruct Dejan to track Sergi which of course shuts down that flank on both sides but that's what I can see happening in reality. Your tactics opens that area of the pitch a lot more on both sides.