Lack of acknowledgement of progress is grating

[Smores]

Even in this thread it's fairly evident that people can't seperate "wanting" something from enjoyment. I don't care what people say United has a glory supporting fan base, it's a small percentage but it exists naturally as being a top club.

We all want united top thats a given but if not achieving that sours everything then you're only bothered about the outcome and not the process.

I also don't get this argument that the money means our progress is meaningless. In this environment money has to be spent to move forward and compete doesn't it? The only way Jose can succeed in that definition is by beating an historically amazing City team. That clearly isn't right.

 

[OohAahMartial]

I don't want recognition for being 2nd - we're Manchester United. Manchester United. If we aren't 1st its nothing to shout about

The minute we start getting praise for being 2nd is the moment we start becoming Liverpool/Arsenal/Spurs...

We're better than that - Im not saying we haven't improved, as we clearly have improved greatly, but the recognition should wait till we make that final jump up to 1st. Maybe as a fanbase our mentality needs to be change, and we need that winning mentality that even us as fans all had under SAF.

Unbelievably entitled. Full of the spoilt arrogance that not only do other fan's hate but even United fans dislike.

 

[balaks]

Unbelievably entitled. Full of the spoilt arrogance that not only do other fan's hate but even United fans dislike.

Sure is.

 

[Bestietom]

We are a few players away from winning the Premiership, but stick with Mourinho and we will do it.

 

[Fridge chutney]

My thoughts are simply this - City are well on course to win the PL with a points total never before reached in history across ANY of Europe's top 5 leagues. More than either of Barcelona or Real Madrid at their respective peaks have managed. More than Juventus when they used to completely dominate Serie A. More than Bayern have ever managed in their 'one-team league', more than PSG have managed in recent seasons, more than Mourinho's big-spending Chelsea of over a decade ago.

To compare yourselves to them at this moment in time is absurd, they are well ahead of the chasing pack and that is not down to Mourinho. You could have brought SAF back at the start of this season and it would make no difference, they are simply performing on an unseen level at the moment.

United themselves are as good as any other team in the PL right now outside of City, that is something I can say confidently and that was simply not the case 18 months ago before Mourinho came in. If the board are happy with that and the progress that's being made fine, if they want to see quicker progress and United close the gap on City in the short-term then they need to spend more, it's as simple as that. Money is everything in football, Mourinho has basically come out and said this has been known since he himself took over Chelsea and 'bought' the PL title in 04-05.

City had a much better squad than United when both Pep & Jose were appointed AND they've spent more money, he is one of the best manager's of the modern era but he is not a miracle worker. Even SAF came up against some formidable challengers in his time at United that he couldn't compete with - Mourinho's early Chelsea side & Arsenal's Invincibles for example. It might hurt to read, but unfortunately this City side right now are a team of that ilk who are historically good.

Competing with a side that good is difficult enough, trying to do it in the short-term when you've taken charge of a club after several seasons of transitional turmoil whilst spending LESS than said side is completely unrealistic. United fans should be thankful they have someone like Mourinho in charge, he is a born-winner with an extraordinary will to win, how many other managers in his comfortable position - and let's be honest, it is comfortable as you're 2nd in the league, easily through to the CL knock-out rounds, and he has 2 trophies in the bank from last year - would speak out against the club's board in an attempt to support the club's interests? He is saying it like it is and arguably putting himself in an uncomfortable position because he wants United to be better just as all the fans do.

Another excellent post Danny cafc.

 

[Random Task]

Agree its progression, but as quoted earlier, surely having spent the sums we have, progression should be the minimum we expect?

In the main I dont disagree with the OP by the way, im just putting a different slant on things as i think the criticism on the forum, whilst often overboard and excessive, is justified in many ways.

But how much is enough?

If we're going to use "money spent" as the primary indicator of where we should be in terms of progression, then the following quote would suggest we are precisely on target.

League table
1st: City spent the most money
2nd: Utd spent the second most
3rd: Chelsea spent the third most

 

[pocco]

Let's face it, the quality of the football we play is what is exacerbating this issue with our supporters. If we were entertaining then I think all this would be easier to stomach, and people would sit comfortably knowing we are heading in the right direction. Hopefully Jose can bring that in time.

Not being as good as City shouldn't prevent us playing good football against everybody else.

 

[100]

I do think the gap between Fergie and now has led to misconceptions of how the top teams and players actually perform. I think we’d have to reach a CL final before the complaints go away.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Sorry but we had 41 points after 22 games last season.

Give this man a prize for repeating what I said in my first post in the thread. Now re-read the post I was quoting.

 

[Ramshock]

Form hasn't been great recently but the doom and gloom surrounding the club that fans and Caf members seem to have been the driving force of, is irritating.

For some perspective, we've spent the last 4 seasons looking like a team that would struggle to make to finish in the top 4, we used to score few goals, create hardly any chances and routinely lose matches we should win. And not just in a 'bad form' sense, but a near 4 years of rubbish sense.

Now we're scoring more goals, have more points, occupy a higher position in the table, have made it through to the knock-out rounds of a competition we've struggled to even qualify for in the past and all I see misery, discontent and 'woe is us' bullshit. Okay we're not the finished article yet and there's work to do as evidenced by City pulling away so early this year, but why are so many people ridiculously fatalistic and refuse to acknowledge that steps forward the club has actually made this season?

And this isn't me burying my head in the sand and mindlessly cheer-leading. But maybe the whole 'we've never been worse and being 2nd in table isn't a sign of progress because we haven't got a DoF or spent £500m in the past few days so life is terrible' thing has gone a bit too far?

If we arent winning the league every season people will complain. Its a mixture of a feeling of entitlement and the need for instant gratification. When you call them on it they say they are entitled to moan but how dare you call them out for it.

For me the worst part is when new signings are dismissed as rubbish before they fet going.

 

[Fridge chutney]

I have noticed a sly media campaign too, didn't think the fans would get sucked in so easily...

The media isn't even subtle. Just checked front page of daily mail sports (shudder) and the headline article is:

"Manchester United stars in gloomy mood as they arrive for training amid fears that Mourinho will quit at the end of the season".

 

[Bestietom]

Give this man a prize for repeating what I said in my first post in the thread. Now re-read the post I was quoting.

sorry Pogue, but it was anduin who had us at 34 points after 22 games last season, not you.

 

[Redmurph16]

Good post and I agree.

There is a sense of entitlement on here that is quite embarrassing. Jose is doing a good job, yes ok sometimes the football could be better but it's a damn sight better than the LVG days.

I would completely echo that.
We are one (genuinely) world class player away from being able to challenge City - I firmly believe that, although if some of the current crop would develop leadership qualities that would be even better!

 

[Redmurph16]

I think the reason the club and everyone around it including players, fans and Mourinho himself is bloody Man City. Of course it is not fun with them being unbeaten and will maybe win the league with the highest point total ever.

Mourinho being upset about it and our drop of form make it even more annoying. Also Mourinho is not someone that builds up or lift a team long term. He is a short term result based manager and when you still get smashed by your big rival it will hurt.

Reason why LVG is more liked over Moyes is not for doing better, but the fact that Liverpool and City did far worse when LVG was here. Them fecking up made us feel less bad about ourselfes and we could all half enjoy Leicester getting a title.

They can have their records - they can't have the treble!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

sorry Pogue, but it was anduin who had us at 34 points after 22 games last season, not you.

Indeed. But not after the first 22 games of last season. It was 34 points after the same “corresponding fixtures”. Not sure who he swapped for the newly promoted teams but giving him the benefit of the doubt there.

 

[Bestietom]

Indeed. But not after the first 22 games of last season. It was 34 points after the same “corresponding fixtures”. Not sure who he swapped for the newly promoted teams but giving him the benefit of the doubt there.

Anyway, Pogue we are 6 points better off than we were last season at same stage, but we need to win more games in the next 16 left, to make sure we secure that second place. Yes, before you ask, I don't think that City will be caught this season.

But I do think that if we stick with Mourinho he will bring the title back here very shortly. we are about 4 players short I would say. What do you think.

 

[M Bison]

Its such an easy comment to say that people are entitled when there is complaints from fans who arent happy with the returns from the team. In certain circumstances i'm sure there is entitlement in areas of the fan base but much of the time it's disappointment and frustration when things have gone wrong, which they did over Christmas.

But how much is enough?

If we're going to use "money spent" as the primary indicator of where we should be in terms of progression, then the following quote would suggest we are precisely on target.

Its impossible to say how much is enough, all i'm doing is agreeing that we have progressed over last season but that was to be expected, and in many cases (not all) the fans criticism of the results is justified.

 

[redshaw]

47 points after 22 games would put us 3 points clear or 1 point behind in the previous ~7 seven seasons.

Progress has been good and I feel the players responded well to the recent slump at Everton. If we had 50+ points right now that would've been a new standard for recent years. Sadly City have just smashed the league beyond that.

I think had Jose had more backing we could've been closer, as what they've done in the past few summers is collect a lot of good players to rotate. We needed more to hit a new bench mark.

Biggest test is can we keep our position.

 

[Witchking]

I have been very critical of Jose this season when he put out the teams and when i saw the performances against the big teams.

However I understand that there is a lot of work to be done with the team and a lot of players need to be either let go or need to improve drastically.

There has been progress since Jose has taken over, however we have also taken a few steps back with our performances which have been very disappointing. Hopefully we finish 2nd this season and next season we get the players quickly due to it being the WC season and start the season a high.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Anyway, Pogue we are 6 points better off than we were last season at same stage, but we need to win more games in the next 16 left, to make sure we secure that second place. Yes, before you ask, I don't think that City will be caught this season.

But I do think that if we stick with Mourinho he will bring the title back here very shortly. we are about 4 players short I would say. What do you think.

Dunno. City are treading new ground here. If they keep at their current level or, god forbid, improve then feck knows what we do to get/stay ahead of them. It’s gonna be insanely expensive, that’s for damn sure. And we’ll have to break MUFC all-time PL points total records, by the looks of things.

 

[Random Task]

Let's face it, the quality of the football we play is what is exacerbating this issue with our supporters. If we were entertaining then I think all this would be easier to stomach, and people would sit comfortably knowing we are heading in the right direction. Hopefully Jose can bring that in time.

Not being as good as City shouldn't prevent us playing good football against everybody else.

Those fans who long for exciting football should first consider the position the club were in prior to Jose's arrival; out of the top4, out of the CL and out of mind. No long feared, barely respected. We needed to change that fast. Recruiting a natural born winner in Jose Mourinho was the next logical step for club battling through a particularly difficult transitional period. His brand of football, although rather dull and ininspiring, will more often than not produce results.

I would hazard a guess that "exciting football" was right at the bottom of the list of priorities for the board when choosing LVG's successor. Re-establishing ourselves as a top 4 club once again would be a far more pressing priority. I would imagine it still is to a large extent. Jose Mourinho is simply a means to an end, once he has cemented the club as a force to be reckoned with once again he will move on. Leaving the gate open for a more progressive, forward thinking manager such as Bosz, Poch, Simeone (my personal favourite) or Zizou among others.

We just need to be patient.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I have noticed a sly media campaign too, didn't think the fans would get sucked in so easily...

Yep, when compared to the blind faith given to Moyes it’s ridiculous.

 

[VeevaVee]

The progress under Jose is obvious and those not acknowledging it are a bit weird. The football in general has been better and the rest is shown in the table. The football isn't good enough though. People want to be entertained more often than not and rightly so. If we end up back with entertaining stuff in a few years then it's a success. If not, people will complain at football that's frustrating to watch, even if we usually end up as the winner.

Let's face it, the quality of the football we play is what is exacerbating this issue with our supporters. If we were entertaining then I think all this would be easier to stomach, and people would sit comfortably knowing we are heading in the right direction. Hopefully Jose can bring that in time.

Not being as good as City shouldn't prevent us playing good football against everybody else.

For sure, and I think Jose has had a bigger task than some care to admit after being setback so much in this regard. I think we could've done more to get back on track since his arrival but fingers crossed, it happens soon.

 

[RedDevil@84]

The media isn't even subtle. Just checked front page of daily mail sports (shudder) and the headline article is:

"Manchester United stars in gloomy mood as they arrive for training amid fears that Mourinho will quit at the end of the season".

Daily mail loves their news reports. They put up a pic of Miki sitting on bench with a bunch of pics of other players training and kinda ask readers "you know what we mean". To make it worse they put in a few pics of other players pointing at something and giggling, right below the Miki on bench pic asking us to connect the dots.

 

[Fridge chutney]

Daily mail loves their news reports. They put up a pic of Miki sitting on bench with a bunch of pics of other players training and kinda ask readers "you know what we mean". To make it worse they put in a few pics of other players pointing at something and giggling, right below the Miki on bench pic asking us to connect the dots.

That entire joke newspaper is a WUM.

 

[Raw]

I decided to have a look at Fergie's point totals after 22 games since 2000:

Spoiler

12/13 - 55 (finished 1st)
11/12 - 51 (finished 2nd via GD)
10/11 - 48 (finished 1st)
09/10 - 47 (finished 2nd, 1 point behind 1st)
08/09 - 50 (finished 1st)
07/08 - 51 (finished 1st)
06/07 - 54 (finished 1st)
05/06 - 45 (finished 2nd, 8 points behind 1st)
04/05 - 44 (finished 3rd, 18 points behind 1st)
03/04 - 50 (finished 3rd, 15 points behind 1st)
02/03 - 41 (finished 1st)
01/02 - 42 (finished 3rd, 10 points behind 1st)
00/01 - 50 (finished 1st)

On average, this comes to 48.3 (or 48) points. In the seasons we won the title, the average is 49.9 (or 50).

I also looked at point totals after 22 games for each title winner since 2000:

Spoiler

16/17 - 55 (Chelsea)
15/16 - 44 (Leicester)
14/15 - 52 (Chelsea)
13/14 - 50 (Man City)
12/13 - 55 (Man Utd)
11/12 - 54 (Man City)
10/11 - 48 (Man Utd)
09/10 - 51 (Chelsea)
08/09 - 50 (Man Utd)
07/08 - 51 (Man Utd)
06/07 - 54 (Man Utd)
05/06 - 61 (Chelsea)
04/05 - 55 (Chelsea)
03/04 - 52 (Arsenal)
02/03 - 41 (Man Utd)
01/02 - 41 (Arsenal)
00/01 - 50 (Man Utd)

On average, this comes to 50.8 (or 51).

Simply put Man City are just having an absolutely mindblowing season, bettering even 05/06 Chelsea's total of 61 points at this stage. The problem is our tendency to have a string of horrible results like our games v Leicester, Burnley and Southampton recently (along with getting knocked out by Bristol). A proper title challenging team would win at least 2/3 of those, putting us on 51/53 points. This would be a very good point total for being a big favourite to win the title in any other season, but unfortunately Man City are just so much better right now. We've had these strings of bad results in other post-Fergie seasons too, and it's something we'd very rarely see under Fergie. Putting a stop to these would give us a fantastic chance of winning the title very soon.

Even still, our points total so far is only 3 away from an average Fergie title winning season and 1 point away from an average Fergie season. Also it's "only" 8 points away from Fergie's best ever haul of points after 22 games (55 in 12/13). We've definitely made a lot of progress. Of course you'd have to factor in the fact that Fergie was usually fantastic at getting points during the 2nd half of the season, something we should really aim to do this season.

 

[SER19]

Why did a comment mourinho made about an ex player get 1000 posts here, and the latest explicit addressing of his future, saying things people have said they want to hear him say out loud complete with a dig at press at other clowns, not warrant a thread or even a thread title?

Proof enough of what drives the narrative on redcafe at the moment

 

[M Bison]

Why did a comment mourinho made about an ex player get 1000 posts here, and the latest explicit addressing of his future, saying things people have said they want to hear him say out loud complete with a dig at press at other clowns, not warrant a thread or even a thread title?

Proof enough of what drives the narrative on redcafe at the moment

Dont follow this, could you explain? Sorry, me being slow i guess.

 

[Marcky411]

Let's face it, the quality of the football we play is what is exacerbating this issue with our supporters. If we were entertaining then I think all this would be easier to stomach, and people would sit comfortably knowing we are heading in the right direction. Hopefully Jose can bring that in time.

Not being as good as City shouldn't prevent us playing good football against everybody else.

I fully agree with you, a lot of fans keep pointing out we are better, this is better that is better and we must be happy with the progress made and support the manager etc.
That for me isn't the issue I support the club and the manager but I also want to be entertained, see some good attacking football and to challenge at the top of the league. We all know City can't be caught but if I see the long faces on the pitch, the manager looking like a spoilt kid not getting his way and sulking in his seat, that some how doesn't give me the feeling of enthusiasm and excitement. If I see lower teams (with a lot worse players) playing attacking football with pace and desire giving it all on the pitch and then Man Utd not being able to string 3 passes together without losing possession, no recognisable game plan, pace of the game pedestrian and half the time just hoofing the ball forward (overturning possession 9 times out of 10) then yes I too get negative. Seeing the amount of money already spent on this team, then yes I do expect more than what is being served up on the pitch.

 

[Random Task]

I fully agree with you, a lot of fans keep pointing out we are better, this is better that is better and we must be happy with the progress made and support the manager etc.
That for me isn't the issue I support the club and the manager but I also want to be entertained, see some good attacking football and to challenge at the top of the league. We all know City can't be caught but if I see the long faces on the pitch, the manager looking like a spoilt kid not getting his way and sulking in his seat, that some how doesn't give me the feeling of enthusiasm and excitement. If I see lower teams (with a lot worse players) playing attacking football with pace and desire giving it all on the pitch and then Man Utd not being able to string 3 passes together without losing possession, no recognisable game plan, pace of the game pedestrian and half the time just hoofing the ball forward (overturning possession 9 times out of 10) then yes I too get negative. Seeing the amount of money already spent on this team, then yes I do expect more than what is being served up on the pitch.

Sorry but this is just nonsensical drivel. If any of it was true then we wouldn't be currently sitting second in the table and have progressed from the CL group stages.

 

[Random Task]

Dont follow this, could you explain? Sorry, me being slow i guess.

He is implying that there is an agenda against Jose Mourinho, anything negative written about him in the media will get far more attention than that of a more positive nature.

 

[ghagua]

We've spent 300m and broke the world transfer record in the last 2 years - of course there's going to be fecking progress. The question is whether it's enough?

It's like a kid who gets hours of private tuition a week complaining why he's not pupil of the year. Yeah pal, your parents paid 60 quid a week for your dumb ass to jump from a D to a C. Well fecking done.

Love it!

 

[SER19]

Dont follow this, could you explain? Sorry, me being slow i guess.

There are several threads open with comments in recent minutes made criticising and moaning saying he should make up his mind or go.

His explicit desire to stay spoken from his own mouth is a footnote of many ongoing discussions. In contrast to 1000 posts in a day over a comment about scholes that was used to batter him.

Seems to me the majority of activity on the site is driven by an anti mourinho brigade and a positive story doesn't get near the same traction

 

[AshRK]

Here in better format.

Funny how we are just 1 point off the 2010-11 campaign where we won the league and also just 3 goals scored less. League has become more tough and we must not lose our patience.

 

[SER19]

Love it!

Which bit, the bit that's false or the analogy that doesn't really fit what the poster is saying?

 

[rocks13]

Funny how we are just 1 point off the 2010-11 campaign where we won the league and also just 3 goals scored less. League has become more tough and we must not lose our patience.

Surely, this is because the league has become less tough and the teams at the bottom are unable to compete with the big spenders at the top. This has led to more and more walkover games meaning points and goal totals for the top teams have gone up.

 

[AshRK]

Why did a comment mourinho made about an ex player get 1000 posts here, and the latest explicit addressing of his future, saying things people have said they want to hear him say out loud complete with a dig at press at other clowns, not warrant a thread or even a thread title?

Proof enough of what drives the narrative on redcafe at the moment

Because now jose''s critics will not like to read that. They still are focusing on a time when he mentioned psg but time and time he has said he wants to stay but we chose to ignore it. Sad how pathetic some of our fan base have become.

 

[adexkola]

If you want to be positive, go ahead, that's your right.

If you're imposing on other people how they should feel about the club's current status, then feck the feck off. Especially if you didn't maintain this same energy around the Moyes/LVG days.

Disclaimer: I'm very positive about our situation, and am aligned with the OP.

 

[SER19]

If you want to be positive, go ahead, that's your right.

If you're imposing on other people how they should feel about the club's current status, then feck the feck off. Especially if you didn't maintain this same energy around the Moyes/LVG days.

Disclaimer: I'm very positive about our situation, and am aligned with the OP.

I don't see much imposing going on and given the vigour of many of the sack the manager brigade very much doubt they would allow themselves to be imposed upon.

For my own part I was vocal in supporting both previous managers to the point the end was clear.

That's a separate issue though- the manager making definitive comments of a positive nature doesn't seem to be as worthy of discussion as more trivial things that can be used to hammer him on. It's quite sad really and a worthy observation of the forum.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Surely, this is because the league has become less tough and the teams at the bottom are unable to compete with the big spenders at the top. This has led to more and more walkover games meaning points and goal totals for the top teams have gone up.

Doesn't explain why Burnley are competing with the top 6. Drawing conclusions is sometimes pointless as, in sports, things that have no explanation can occur e.g. Leicester winning the league. I think the league is at a state where it's actually quite even bar City - whether that's because everyone is weaker or stronger is anyone's guess.