Prior to the 2020s Messi reached a WC final and 3 Copa finals with Argentina so it's not down to bad coaching per se if you are always the runner-ups since getting to the final isn't easy, Argentina simply lacked the ability to be decisive in the final. The 2014 final is a great example of Argentina being unclutch, Higuain, Di Maria, Messi, Palacios(?) missed several great chances and the final went to extra time, culminating with Götze scoring. There was definitely a mental element because pressure from Argentina fans increased the longer he didn't win anything, they even started doubting his loyalties which led Messi to briefly quit the NT. Fortunately his body held up in his 30s and a new generation unaffected by previous disappointments emerged e.g. MacAllister, Enzo, Dibu, Lautaro, Julian Alvarez.
Lamine Yamal
- Thread starter Hoof the ball
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You are actually saying what I've said, timing in life it's everything, if some of those chances were scored, things could change.
Just as a side note, to be more precise: Pekerman and Basile are great coaches, that fvcked decisive moments and in the case of Pekerman, had a a very unlucky injury with Abbondancieri, even if his changes were pretty bad in my view and he repeteaed past mistakes made in prior friendlies.
Yet Sampaoli, Batista, Bauza, Maradona, too much improvisation that ended badly. Martino just a mere good coach with a serious flaw all his carreer of how to face a final.
Back to that Argentina 2014 it's actually one of the best coched NTs in recent times. The WC version wasn't the same as the one in the eliminatories that was flying at all cilinders with everyone fit (months a year after the WC, they were most of them back in their best fitness and also were playing quite great, shyte happens. but in the WC Messi was struggling on the verge of a major injury, so he was treated in consequence, Kun got broke, Di Maria too and Sabella who was a fine coach, transformed the team in way more pragmatic team to try to win it anyway, he was close, but no cigar.
PD: Yes indeed there was a mental element with huge roots even before messi arrived. That kind of stuff can only get out of the way with a Title, even if won without your best form, that it's a classic with every NT in the history of the game, if not the prior failures appear as ghosts in the new opportunities
Re:4 I’m not sure how one interprets the ceiling, it’s easy to use foresight and say that about Messi because we know what he became, I would argue that given what Yamal has done before he turns 18, that means his ceiling is actually even higher.
Yamal has average speed. Messi had top acceleration. This is the big difference.
Messi had off the charts acceleration, deceleration, agility, lateral quickness and balance, to go with elite pace
Lamine Yamal has elite agility, lateral quickness and balance, and his pace, acceleration and deceleration are great, but yeah, he's no Messi athletically
Messi had insane athleticism
Lamine Yamal has elite agility, lateral quickness and balance, and his pace, acceleration and deceleration are great, but yeah, he's no Messi athletically
Messi had insane athleticism
Messi had elite acceleration but I don't think he had elite top max speed.
He didn't though he was still pretty damn fast in terms of top speed and pace over 40-50 meters
The rest was ridiculous. His dribbling was so fast defenders often didn't even have the time to react
He has amazing ability to change direct and stop, he was like playing a computer game with arcade controls.
That fecking desire to get that ball and just nonchalantly does that straight after. Feck me it was sublime. 
Not really. Messi had loads of room for improvement in decision making and final pass. His baseline qualities i.e speed, explosiveness, close control and even finishing was on another level to Yamal. The first 3 are innate qualities. What can Yamal improve on? Mainly his finishing. His passing can improve but the room is much less than it was for Messi while his decision making is as good as can be not just for a 17 year old. His speed, explosiveness and close control will never reach Messi's level.
People are comparing them based on age, a fairer comparIson is based on the first 100 games because as has been said severally what made Messi not start regularly for Barcelona at 16 or 17 was the prevailing circumstances, not lack of ability. If you look at the stats at 100 games, Messi beats Yamal in goalscoring and absolutely demolishes him in dribbles completed. Yamal has more assists.
In short, Messi's raw talent was greater than Yamal's and therefore a higher ceiling. Reminds me of the Rooney vs Cristiano comparison, both talented but once Cristiano's decision making improved, he pulled away.
Correct.
The first one hundred games is not a fairer comparison, what kind of logic is that?
Lots to disagree with here. That is not at all a fairer way to compare; on the developmental curve, the older you are (especially as a footballer) the better, stronger and smarter you are, and further, the more equipped you are to handle the adult game, given you’re becoming a full grown man yourself. A 16-year old working through a hundred games is nothing at all like a 19-year old doing the same thing. The 16-year old also has to navigate the pitch and opponents in a completely different way, unless an absolute man-child like a Whiteside or Rooney, who were bulldozing through full-grown men for fun at 16 and 17. Yamal’s decision making is also absolutely extraordinary and the best I’ve seen in a child, Pele and Maradona inclusive, so his interpretation of the pitch is so far removed from the generic teen prodigy as to be almost pointless to compare them.
And regarding Rooney and C.Ronaldo, you’ve gone off on a complete tangent assuming both had the same thirst for development, improvement and application. They didn’t. Not by a long shot, so raw talent (of which Rooney clearly had more of) has nothing to do with where they ended up or how things turned out; Rooney with C.Ronaldo’s dedication and studiousness would be a wholly different conversation.
On Yamal’s speed. There’s no real way of knowing what it might become. He doesn’t even have his adult muscles or body yet.
I agree with @Fortitude on Yamal's pace. His body will develop more as he becomes a full-fledged adult and he could become faster.
Athletes don't peak physically at 17. Messi was faster at 22 years of age than he was at 17. Comparing them on pace is disingenuous at the moment.
But Yamal is clearly the most talented player since Messi. His decision making and playmaking for his age is frightening. I've said he's the best player in the world this season, and I think more are reluctant to include him in the conversation because of his age, but he's phenomenal. His finishing is his biggest weakness, but he could easily remedy that with time.
In terms of comparing his innate talent directly to Messi's, it's still hard to look past Messi. I think Messi's probably the 2nd or 3rd most naturally gifted player of all-time, but I don't think Yamal is that far off. He's more talented than Neymar was imo and that's a high bar to me.
Athletes don't peak physically at 17. Messi was faster at 22 years of age than he was at 17. Comparing them on pace is disingenuous at the moment.
But Yamal is clearly the most talented player since Messi. His decision making and playmaking for his age is frightening. I've said he's the best player in the world this season, and I think more are reluctant to include him in the conversation because of his age, but he's phenomenal. His finishing is his biggest weakness, but he could easily remedy that with time.
In terms of comparing his innate talent directly to Messi's, it's still hard to look past Messi. I think Messi's probably the 2nd or 3rd most naturally gifted player of all-time, but I don't think Yamal is that far off. He's more talented than Neymar was imo and that's a high bar to me.
Messi with the ball is the fastest i have seen And the ball was as if tied to his laces. Without the ball though, he was very fast, certainly faster than Yamal, but not the fastest.
There is a quote from Mourinho about Rashford where he says that it doesn't matter his age, what does matter is how much he has played. This holds true for Yamal vs Messi comparison as well; Yamal is a veteran compared to Messi at the same age and therefore has way more experience. Therefore, a fairer comparison is after a fixed no of games rather than age.
The other thing is physical development; Yamal looks more physically developed compared to Messi; the later actually looked like a child at 18.
In any case, i have watched Yamal this season, last season and at the Euros as well. I watched Messi when he was 18 (at 17 he barely played) and i can say without doubt that his innate talent was easily greater than that of Yamal although the later is a generational talent in his own right. Whether he will have an preening egomaniac pushing him remains to be seen.
How do you describe natural talent? For me there are certain things you learn in the game like passing, running off the ball, decision making, free kicks and, finishing while there are others you cannot learn like speed, acceleration, and close control. It is these laters aspects of the game where i don't think anyone bar Maradona comes close to Messi. Messi at 18 was completing a monstrous number of dribbles (7.2 per 90 mins vs Yamal's 4.2 per 90 mins) purely because of his innate talent.
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It is logical in this case (Yamal vs Messi) because the former has had far more opportunity due to the prevailing circumstances and therefore interms of experience is way ahead. Experience counts especially when it comes to output.
Messi also had his 3 month long injuries that really hampered him in his teens. He completed 100 games at age 20 (07/08) and even in that season he got injured twice missing 3 months.
https://www.givemesport.com/lamine-...his 100th game, Messi,Liga titles to his name.
It is not logical. You are comparing a 20 year old to a 17 year old. There is often a massive gap in development even between a 17 year old and an 18 year old. Think of how many hundreds of footballers have scored a goal in the World Cup. Only one of them, ever, has been 17. Why do you think that is?
Yamal has far more experience than Messi at the same age. In that respect, the number of games rather than age is a fairer comparison.
I just don't think it is. There is too many other variables at play.
Mourinho is one of the last people you want to use to talk about young players. He who ignored Salah and De Bruyne who went on to become two of the best players of their generation. You’re way off in this kind of assessment as has been pointed out not only by me but in subsequent posts by others. The developmental curve of teenagers, especially those who are still effectively boys vis-a-vis the transition into becoming young men, or at least having their adult bodies, is the biggest divider in the game and the very reason many young, extremely talented players don’t even get to play until they have a body capable of withstanding the many physical challenges of the adult game and hence why we see a flood of debutants from 19 onwards and not so many at each yearly increment down. Fewer come through at 17 than 18, and by 16, it’s practically unheard of with the very, very few that start out as pros at 16 being made a huge deal of because it’s an absurdly young age to play the adult game at unless a man-child who is essentially in their adult frame well before they “should” be.
Navigating 100 games as a boy in the man’s game at 16/17 is nothing like doing so at 19 or 20. You’ve produced a bizarre metric that simply doesn’t translate to the real world.
With all due respect, you are simply wrong, and you didn't address the question I asked, which proves it.
Yeah, Yamal is a much "better", or at the very least much more of an end product, much more mature and much more influential in the game, than Messi was at the same age. It's still extremely unlikely he'll get anywhere near as good as prime Messi though.
No, the difference is not nearly as great as you are making out here IMO. What I would say is that it is at least arguable that Yamal is better at that child age. I cant claim that he is 'much' better at anything.
I'm more inclined to agree with the last bit of your post, though. I can't see any way in which he matches or even approaches the numbers. I can't see him moving inside and running the game centrally in the same way.
But then, I certainly didn't foresee Messi scoring hundreds of goals either, so you never know. I thought Messi was going to be Dinho-like in terms of numbers. I recall having debates with United fan friends and saying that I thought Messi was the best player in the world back when Ronaldo had his 40 goal season.
And their argument was 'Ronaldo's scored 40 goals, what are you talking about?!' And I'd have to try and explain that I was watching Messi every week and he was doing things that no one else was doing. And I'd say that Messi had back luck with injuries, and once he played a full season, they'd see.
But they didn't get it then, because they couldn't look past the numbers at that time. Fortunately, Messi soon rendered any numbers argument obsolete, but I didn't realise that was going to happen at the time, that he was going to make the switch to the false 9 etc
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Let me put it this way; there is simply no way to say that Yamal is better or Messi was better at 17 quite simply because Messi barely played senior football at 17 not due to lack of ability but because of the prevailing circumstances. You simply can't compare the output of a player when one barely played. Even at 18, Messi was often taken off much before 90 minutes even in games where he was dominant (which was most games) whereas Yamal completes most games. Plus Messi had his share of injuries that kept him out for prolonged periods until he turned 21.
What i can say is having watched both players in the beginning of their respective careers, Messi had more raw talent. Yamal is definitely more mature which contributes greatly to his output but as good as he is, Messi had a higher ceiling. Infact, when Messi was 18, he was able to even outshine prime Ronaldinho, that was how good he was. One hallmark of Messi's game is that he has never been about goal/assists stats alone although his stats are off the charts; Messi can be the best player on the pitch and influence a game without necessarily scoring or assisting.
Where Yamal can perhaps surpass Messi in terms of achievements is in international football. Spain are well coached and play similar to Barcelona meaning Yamal doesn't have an adaptation issue every time he wears his national team shirt.
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The bolded part is all you really needed to say. So I can make the statement 'Yamal is the best 17 year old since Pele' and still be correct, because by your own admission, we didn't see much of Messi at 17, no matter what the reason was.
Yamal has done amazing things at that age, for club and country. Messi took a little while longer to get going, I don't see why this is some huge affront, especially considering what Messi went on to do.
I mean, after all, Messi did not have a goal contribution in an international final until he was 35 years old, after playing in, what? six? seven? Yamal has already done it at age 16.
It's OK to say these things, it doesn't take away from Messi's overall achievements. It doesn't mean that Yamal will go on to have even one hundredth of the career that Messi has had, but we're talking about what Yamal has done so far, at age 16/17.
You are a Barcelona fan really wanting an even better footballer than Messi, i get it; you are excited, i'd be too if Man utd had such talent at their disposal. Yamal is amazing and from the very small pool of players that played first team senior football at that age, he is the best (i did not watch Pele), i agree. I also agree that he is going to be the best of his generation.
Unfortunately, it is impossible to compare the two players at 17 interms of output but i can compare them interms of talent and having watched both, you simply cannot ignore Messi's extraordinary close control and athleticism even at a very young age that Yamal does not possess. That is Messi's innate talent and it is greater than Yamal's.
Yamal makes better decisions on the pitch but that is something Messi learnt very quickly and it became one of Messi's biggest strengths ditto the final pass.
As for not having a goal contribution till age 35 in an international final is the kind of thing stats obsessed Cristiano fans come up with; disappointed that you who accuses Ronaldo of tap ins comes up with this. Messi is beyond stats and there are many things apart from stats in individual performances. For instance, Yamal was actually very quiet in the final of the Euros apart from the assist which was truthfully a fairly simple pass. Messi was really unlucky in many of those finals; 2008 Brazil was too physical for them, 2014 Germany were by far the best team and honestly speaking Messi went into the tournament in poor form due to injuries sustained during the season, 2015 and 16 he should have had assists or pre Assists but his teammates let him down, 2021 final he played with an ankle injury.
I don't want a footballer that is better because I don't think Yamal will or can be better in the long run. I'd be very surprised if he is.
I'm pushing back against your cult-like notion that everything about Messi's career was perfect, because it wasn't. He's a human being.
The finals that you make excuses for, you could just say 'he struggled with the weight of expectation at international level in these games. He struggled with the pressure of matching Diego's legacy'
It's not bad luck. It's normal. It's OK. No one succeeds all the time. It makes for a better story anyway that he was able to overcome the critics and his own doubts and triumph in the end. But let's not pretend that the struggle.didnt happen, that's reductive.
You can admire someone as a unique, one of one player without trying to claim that they are an infallible deity.
I wish he'd just either get his surname on the back of the shirt or shorten his name, like Cristiano did
For my peace of mind
For my peace of mind