What's the problem in trailing 2-1 if you're having 2 penalties after near the start of the shootout?
League Cup - 4th round
- Thread starter jojojo
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Because if you miss one, What happened to Chelsea and Wolves will get repeated every time. The second penalty will have a huge pressure and it'll probably get missed.
The only thing that relieve the pressure from the first team if the second one fecked up at least one of their first 2 penalties.
Let's imagine another scenario. The first team misses his penalty, so with full confidence the second scores and gets a 2-0 lead very early.
Good luck for the first team returning from that.
Good luck for the first team returning from that.
I give up, picking out random scenarios that you are irrationally biased towards is a waste of time. I’ll leave it as this.
There is a perception that taking penalties when behind on the scoreboard is more difficult and that fewer in such circumstance are converted. There is a body of statistical evidence that supports this hypothesis too. All the ABBA system attempts to do is divide the number of shots a team will have to make when behind on the scoreboard equally between both teams, rather than have this burden placed primarily on Team B. Under the old system, Team B takes far more penalties under pressure than Team A, if both teams convert equally long term, in fact Team A would never have to take a penalty under scoreboard pressure should they not miss.
FWIW, I don’t believe this change needed to be made. The most comprehensive collection of penalty shootouts that I’ve seen suggests that the advantage of going first versus second was about 52% v 48%. This new system may get it close to 50-50, but even if it does, it won’t be apparent.
There is a perception that taking penalties when behind on the scoreboard is more difficult and that fewer in such circumstance are converted. There is a body of statistical evidence that supports this hypothesis too. All the ABBA system attempts to do is divide the number of shots a team will have to make when behind on the scoreboard equally between both teams, rather than have this burden placed primarily on Team B. Under the old system, Team B takes far more penalties under pressure than Team A, if both teams convert equally long term, in fact Team A would never have to take a penalty under scoreboard pressure should they not miss.
FWIW, I don’t believe this change needed to be made. The most comprehensive collection of penalty shootouts that I’ve seen suggests that the advantage of going first versus second was about 52% v 48%. This new system may get it close to 50-50, but even if it does, it won’t be apparent.
Let's agree to disagree then, but IMO, it's obvious the second team will have full control on the shootout and their result of 2 penalties will affect everything going to happen after them. That wasn't the case in the old system.
We'll see over time.
You do understand that the format is A BB AA BB AA B and not A BB A B A B A B A? Both teams will in turn face the opportunity to equalise and then go ahead throughout the shootout.
If the players learn that those 2 penalties will be the key will that not put extra pressure on those players?
I don't really see much difference in pressure although I agree that second might be better as pressure should build over time.
For the third time I said I'm pretty sure we'll see all different scenarios and the first team will win as well, but how you can't see the second team 2 penalties will be crucial for what will happen latter is beyond me.
Score these 2 penalties and you put the first team under pressure of a must scoring his next penalties to keep it going. Miss one of them and you put the first team under very good condition to lead 3-1 and win as well. Everything will depend on what the second team will do in their first 2 penalties. I highly doubt we'll see many long penalty shootout with this this system. It'll be mostly the same result as today for one team or another.
If you can't see the impact the first 2 successive penalties will have on the rest of the shootout then I won't be able to convince you, so as I said let's agree to disagree.
I must say that's a good point here, so fair enough.
But they are only playing catch up if the first team scores all their pens.... right ?
We missed our first penalty in Rome in 84 and won 4 - 2.
Some bellend must lay in bed of a night thinking about how he can change the rules . What next ? fecking score zones from open play ?
Huh? No its about making penalties completely fair and not giving someone an advantage based on a coin flip. Theres stats over the years showing the first team has an advantage, obviously doesnt happen all the time though. This format eliminates that advantage. Also the assumption is the takers score. If they miss then obviously the advantage swings to the other team, because they missed.
This round is going to be horseshite - next round's going to have some huge fixtures.
I‘ll wait for the stats over the coming years before I make my mind up whether this format is fairer or not. Basically it‘s all theory at the moment.
Looks like both city and arsenal may have broken new sub's rule last night. Apparently Norwich want it looked into. Both made 4 sub's but 2 in extra time. The rule says an extra sub but Norwich reckon you can only make a 4th if you made 3 in normal time
If it's true and both refs didn't catch it, that's bad.that's interesting but i doubt anything will come of it
the sponsor would lose their shit if arsenal and city were dumped out on technicalities
The wording if the rule is kind if unclear. So maybe ref's misinterpreted it too but more then likely Norwich have.
Think it would probably games replayed.
Carabao is Thai energy drink and this competition is not even telecasted in Thailand apparently (read someone complaining on twitter).
Great a nice draining replay after a long draining game with extra time will do wonders 
That's hilarious. Here's the relevant rule:
10.2 Where any match goes to extra time (in accordance with the provisions of Rules 14.4, 14.5 and/or 14.6), then subject to the League having obtained the prior approval of the International Football Association Board (IFAB) to the application of this Rule, each Club participating in that match will be permitted to use an additional substitute (in extra time only).
Guidance
See Rule 19.1 which provides that Clubs must submit an additional monitoring form in relation to the use of any fourth substitute. These forms will be supplied by the EFL in electronic format.
And
19 Match Reports
19.1 Each Club shall submit the result of the tie, the names of the players taking part, if applicable a fourth substitution monitoring form (in such format as required by the League), and the marking of the Referee’s performance, to The League within six days of the match.
So it's up to the clubs to show how the fourth sub was used. The "an additional substitute" wording is presumably what Norwich are talking about. Great story.
Sounds great. Nobody understands the rules and even now after the games have finished they aren't certain about it. If they did break it, there is, of course, no rule what happens in that case.
But, from the looks of it, if the referee allowed it, don't see City or Arsenal being punished.
But, from the looks of it, if the referee allowed it, don't see City or Arsenal being punished.
There's nothing in the rules about the 4th sub being allowed only if the previous 3 were made in normal time. Norwich, or rather the Sun, are grasping at clicks here.
Norwich played brilliantly for most of the game last night. Lovely goal from Murphy who had another great chance to wrap it up prior to our equaliser. Felt like one of those nights where nothing would go in but we got lucky with the set piece goals in the end. Coquelin was a new level of awful throughout. Painful to watch.
Regardless of the opposition if we show the same lethargy and attitude next round we're gonna get hammered.
Referees aren't obliged to make sure that player regulations are adhered to. Eligibility is up to the club. That's the same in all competitions I think.
Personally, I don't think the wording of the rule is solid enough to allow a result to be overturned, but it's still amusing. I think all we'll actually see is a statement clarifying the rule.
To be fair to City and Arsenal if they did break some sort of a rule, it's the Ref of 4th official that should warn/stop them from doing so.
Absolutely superb effort from Wolves last night. Struggled under the City storm at times, but at other times defended really well. They'll be disappointed not to have taken their glorious chances.
I don't mind the new penalty system.
I don't mind the new penalty system.
this isn't about player eligibility though is it? if in a prem game a team tried to make a 4th sub the ref wouldn't allow it under the laws but the ref allowed this as he rightly or wrongly thought that 4 subs are allowed.
Hm, always thought they have some say in it. I know that 4th official only assists with the substitution procedure and can directly intervene if the player's equipment is not according to the rules. But for sure, the main referee has some say in it as he is in charge to enforce all the rules.
For example, would he allow the team to make the fourth substitution in EPL match and just go with it? Imo, he has the responsibility to stop it, same as here.
Edit: as Thunderhead is also saying
almost as hilarous as when real madrid played an ineligible player and got kicked out of copa del rey, ofcourse it's the clubs responsibility to know the rules.
My sources tell me there might be an unleashing of Drinkwater at Chelsea tonight.
I thought this was on Sky tonight, it's not. cnut shit feck bollocks.
What? fecks sake.
Would be nice to see extra time and an 85 penalty shootout shared between Spurs and West Ham tonight.
Drinkwater and Ampadu in midfield? I hope Everton don't turn up!
Much stronger Everton team than Chelsea, hope Rooney nets a hat trick!
Spurs v West Ham is on.
Good team that. Great to see young Dujon Sterling on the bench too. Not too fussed about this mickey mouse cup anyway. Too many games to worry over this cup.Drinkwater and Ampadu in midfield? I hope Everton don't turn up!
Suppose that'll do, probably because it's a derby it's been picked. Chelsea not on red button or whatever? Seems you pay more for sky sports every year and get less and less.
I think I pay close to £100 a month and it's always Brighton or West Brom on telly. Very annoying.
Surely it would make more sense to offer fans the chance to watch their team regularly for a set fee per month. It would surely bring in more fans who can't afford to go to games, but can spend that £40-50 per month to watch their team play on T.V
Difficult to read how Spurs will play against us. I expect Aurier to start. The defense as normal to be Alderweireld, Verthongen and Sanchez. Last fullback Davies or Trippier most likely. Midfield/attack now both Dier, Alli, Sissoko, Llorente and Son starts. Eriksen and Kane rested so they will start for sure. The last 3 spots can be quite open. Alli will most likely start and I do think Dier as well even if Winks have played well. Then it is more a question of how attacking they will be.