Based on that, but also instinctively, it seems highly unlikely that ETH would play FDJ and Eriksen as two 6s. Probably FDJ and a disciplined, physical no6 and with Eriksen further forward.
Let’s talk DM
- Thread starter golden_blunder
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Doesn't seem like the media have any insight about who United might be targeting for this position, but I think it can pretty safely be said that if we fail to sign a DM this summer, the defence will be very exposed next season and we will concede a lot of goals again.
We only had one DM in the squad and he left on a free transfer this summer. Fail to sign a DM, fail to finish top 4, I reckon (assuming we don't sign a couple of world class CBs instead).
We only had one DM in the squad and he left on a free transfer this summer. Fail to sign a DM, fail to finish top 4, I reckon (assuming we don't sign a couple of world class CBs instead).
I honestly can’t wait till the season starts, the window shuts and we can get this shit show on the road.
I think we have multiple plans for addressing the midfield issue but I think plan A and B have or will go out the window before the season starts and we’ll have to limp our way through the season and Ten Hag will have to prove he’s an excellent manager with great flexibility to work with what he’s got.
We’ll be close to fixing the issue by the end of next summer, or hopefully we can make a few signings after the World Cup when players might be more inclined to move.
I think we have multiple plans for addressing the midfield issue but I think plan A and B have or will go out the window before the season starts and we’ll have to limp our way through the season and Ten Hag will have to prove he’s an excellent manager with great flexibility to work with what he’s got.
We’ll be close to fixing the issue by the end of next summer, or hopefully we can make a few signings after the World Cup when players might be more inclined to move.
DM's abilities of Martinez will transpire also when we'll put him in defense. Win / win situation for the manager who will be able to push more midfielders forward vs teams setting 10 men in defense, which United had some problems to collect points against.
Doubt ETH will surrender interest on Timber who can venture forward, but one's thing for sure: Watch out for Garner this pre-season. Before further signings enter the dressing room, there's that short window of opportunity to separate wheat from the chaff also among youngsters.
Doubt ETH will surrender interest on Timber who can venture forward, but one's thing for sure: Watch out for Garner this pre-season. Before further signings enter the dressing room, there's that short window of opportunity to separate wheat from the chaff also among youngsters.
It’s not a DM that’s needed per se but a defensively strong midfielder to provide balance in there, who can also contribute in passing and attack.
At Ajax last season, Gravenberch would venture forward and Alvarez would provide the protection. They had a slump in form around the period when Alvarez was injured towards the end of the season and looked more balanced again when he came back.
Maybe he will use Martinez in there at times but seeing Bissouma go to spuds for 25m is hard to take.
The Sangare lad looks decent too and not too expensive.
At Ajax last season, Gravenberch would venture forward and Alvarez would provide the protection. They had a slump in form around the period when Alvarez was injured towards the end of the season and looked more balanced again when he came back.
Maybe he will use Martinez in there at times but seeing Bissouma go to spuds for 25m is hard to take.
The Sangare lad looks decent too and not too expensive.
We play 2 in our 4-2-3-1. You can get away with 1.5 DMs in that formation like we tried with Pogba etc, but you need that solidarity coming from elsewhere in the team to make up for it.
If we change formation, which we really should, then in a 4-3-3 that are dominating the ball and with a stronger defence than ours you don't absolutely need a traditional DM. You need one if your other midfielders want to get forward and are caught out of position defensively or your CBs are weak. Or for big matches where one mistake of a midfielder getting into the box and then the team losing the ball and getting caught onto the counter and conceding a goal is going to send you out. Having that one player who knows how to fill in for CBs, when to foul the opposing team to stop the counter and when its worth getting booked so the team can get back into position is very important. Because it can easily be the difference between staying in the competition. But that is not every league game. Most shouldnt require you to be thatg cautious unless your other players dont do enough defensively and the CBs cant cope.
We are a low scoring team who conceeded a lot of goals last season. We need to become far harder to beat and we need far more product from our attacking players. And that should start from making sure we're at a decent level defensively. Because our attackers arent scoring anyway.
So sort out the CB and midfield and then you can get more players going forward with the idea that you're going to outscore the opposing team. If you do it with Lindelof and Fred starting you'd need to score 3 goals a game.
I don’t disagree with everything that you are saying, I just think that based on what we are seeing so far that we are going to play without a full on DM type next season. ETH may tweak his tactics as he learns more about the PL
The two 6s he decided to play then were de Jong and Schone. Traditionally I would agree a physical and combative player would best compliment de Jong but ten Hag went a very different way before, successfully.
It still amazes me people haven't figured out De Jong is a DM.
Both his stint at Barca and Vangle have proven that's his best position. He dictates the play, he's the regista, the playmaker, de controleur, whatever you wanna call him.
ETH's comment from 3 years ago how playing in a 2 man pivot allows him more creative freedom keeps being taken out of context.
The only way he isn't a DM is if DM means "shite footballer that just runs around and puts tackles in".
Both his stint at Barca and Vangle have proven that's his best position. He dictates the play, he's the regista, the playmaker, de controleur, whatever you wanna call him.
ETH's comment from 3 years ago how playing in a 2 man pivot allows him more creative freedom keeps being taken out of context.
The only way he isn't a DM is if DM means "shite footballer that just runs around and puts tackles in".
It's not really about a DM per se, it's about having someone with defensive competence alongside De Jong.
Fred and Mctominay are tenacious and they cover ground, but they're just not effective enough in their defensive work - they're too easily beaten, too easily bypassed, lose too many duels, fail to track runners too often, position themselves poorly too often.
We don't necessarily need a player that sits in front of the defence and shields all game, but they need some maturity, awareness and effectiveness in their defensive work that Fred/Mctominay don't show.
Edit: they must also meet the bare minimum level of technical ability on the ball, which Fred/Mctominay fall short of.
Fred and Mctominay are tenacious and they cover ground, but they're just not effective enough in their defensive work - they're too easily beaten, too easily bypassed, lose too many duels, fail to track runners too often, position themselves poorly too often.
We don't necessarily need a player that sits in front of the defence and shields all game, but they need some maturity, awareness and effectiveness in their defensive work that Fred/Mctominay don't show.
Edit: they must also meet the bare minimum level of technical ability on the ball, which Fred/Mctominay fall short of.
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Fair comment. I don’t think it will work in the Prem but I trust ETH to either make it work or adapt to what’s needed. If the latter, we probably need to sign someone and we probably don’t have the funds for it just now.
Midfield is going to be tough to get right but I’m very interested to see how ETH solves the problem.
Don’t think ETH want to pay up for a DM, instead he wants to put the money on players allowing him to dominate the midfield. Huge risk if he doesn’t manage to improve the midfield to the level needed.
Eriksen and Fred will take turn pairing FDJ if we get him.
Eriksen and Fred will take turn pairing FDJ if we get him.
McTominay has great stamina, pace and strength and ETH should be able to coach McTominay to do a lot of the things that a decent CDM does. His ability on the ball will always be the limiting factor not least not being press resistent but hopefully ETH can mould a player out of McTominay eg tracking runners and positional awareness.
private chat? no moaning
Yes, his definition of DM isn't the fifa or FM definition. His definition of DM is entirely different. This is where Martinez comes to play. When we have lot of ball I think he will step into midfield . Also think Shaw /Malacia /Dalot will come inside and take up positions in midfield who will eventually do the job what a DM is supposed to do.
I do agree that he is planning for a FDJ - Eriksen pairing.
It's interesting to think any of those are deep-lying midfielders, especially VDB whose manager never played him in that position at Ajax.
There's more than one way to play football.
A DM is not critical to United playing football if we get the midfield ETH needs.
It's clear the manager wants a midfield that will dominate possession rather than one which wins back possession.
A DM is not critical to United playing football if we get the midfield ETH needs.
It's clear the manager wants a midfield that will dominate possession rather than one which wins back possession.
He played as a number six often at Ajax. Donny himself has suggested that a deeper role is his best position.
ETH has played in him in 2 man pivot a ton. That was his primary position in his last Ajax season. Prior to that he played there with FDJ for a bit behind Ziyech.
It's just a briefing to manage Barca and our alternative targets. Our fans won't buy into that narrative.
Regarding this thread - like some have pointed out, the likes of Carrick and De Jong are DMs. That's literally their position. How they go about their defensive work depends on tactics and their competencies. Carrick was still successful in his screening role under LVG, so a player like De Jong should probably be able to do a decent enough job defensively in his 1st season in the PL. Remember, we're not expected to challenge for the title, so a midfield trio of De Jong, Eriksen and Bruno should be more than enough to compete for top 4. Fred, McT and VDB on rotation are decent enough. A destroyer-type can be bought later if necessary in replacement of the weakest link.
I stand corrected then.
Do you think there's a chance he could play him there again with De Jong if the latter joins?
There are different types of DM - typically somewhere along the scale between a Destroyer and a Deep Lying Playmaker. What is common is that they can act as a single pivot in front of the back line. You need that defensive awareness, positioning etc to succeed.
For my money, a DM should have been our top priority for at least a couple of years now. The lack of one exposes both our defence and midfield and it forces our midfielders to play roles they are rubbish at.
Having a player in the mould of a prime Carrick in our team now would have an enormous impact, I can’t overstate it. It would free up the likes of McFred and Eriksen to play in roles they are actually good in. It would provide much needed protection for our back line, and the passing ability from deep would allow us to control the game and transition from defence to attack better than we currently can.
I am less sold on us needing a Destroyer as we already have lots of energy in midfield, what we need is that defensive discipline, positioning and passing.
For my money, a DM should have been our top priority for at least a couple of years now. The lack of one exposes both our defence and midfield and it forces our midfielders to play roles they are rubbish at.
Having a player in the mould of a prime Carrick in our team now would have an enormous impact, I can’t overstate it. It would free up the likes of McFred and Eriksen to play in roles they are actually good in. It would provide much needed protection for our back line, and the passing ability from deep would allow us to control the game and transition from defence to attack better than we currently can.
I am less sold on us needing a Destroyer as we already have lots of energy in midfield, what we need is that defensive discipline, positioning and passing.
this. Reading through this thread there appears to be a belief United fans want some makelele type dm. We don’t, we just don’t want Mctominay or Fred playing alongside de Jong for all the reasons you’ve listed. Man City play with Rodri as their “dm”. He gets forward, he scores goals but first and foremost he’s a competent footballer in every department. Why do Manchester United persistently think they can get away with having midfielders incapable of being competent in midfield.
Luckhurst is wank but even otherwise, I'd presume either ETH intends to play with 2 b2bs and a #10 or give Garner a real chance on preseason before he dips his toe into the market. THere's also the possibility of going with three at the back, which would make a DM too redundant or play Martinez in midfield.
It absolutely naive to even think you can dominate possession if you cannot press and retrieve possession. I don’t want to sound patronising but football is based on strategic principles. Not wishful thinking or fancy dribbles nor on blind faith. If you need to dominate possession then you need to control the middle third of the pitch or those zones of play ahead of your defensive line.
There is a very slim possiblity that this team can dominate possession in a meaningful way so fast. The midfield has to push up to attack anyways. The DM role doesn’t mean putting in tackles, it mean threat neutralisation just ahead of the CBs. Saying that a DM is not required as you will have fancy ball playing players keeping the ball is wishful. Forward line loses the ball inevitably and the opposition will then attack, in a matter of few seconds they would like to hit the back line. Does the fancy ball players have the ability to cover, press and neutralise the threat? Note the ball playing player is now defending probably 60% of the playing field behind him. How much of space will the players cover in what zones? It would take a longer post to explain the dynamics of a counter attack but frankly if anyone on here thinks that playing possession football with ball players negate DMs then that’s naive. There is no team at top level of who does that. Would be interesting to see how ETH sets up the team but there will always be a number 6 and a 8 to cover spaces. The characteristics required in those roles will determine his style. Effectively the style of play will be determined by players available at his disposition and not buying proper defenders and DMs will hurt IMO.
This is an error on ETH's part but maybe he has decided to leave that position to be filled next year. The fact he tried to get Matic to stay must indicate that he recognises that this is an area of need. All of City, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea play with a midfielder who has defensive characteristics. ETH's mostly models Pep, who has always played with either Fernandinho or Rodri so it does leave me worried that he is going into the season without a midfielder of such a profile. The club are fixated with McT and making him into a DM, which I don't feel he has the quality to do so. We're talking about a player who plays as a CB for his national team, who can't beat out the likes of McGinn and Gilmour, somehow come out on top against other quality midfields in the EPL. We will never bridge the gap to the top 3 with McT as one of our starting midfielders. Unless the club have a grand plan to target Bellingham or Rice next year, this is going to be a glaring issue and we know that our club has no plans whatsoever
Absolutely agree, there’s more than one way to play football. 19 clubs in the PL play football BUT all of City, Pool, Chelsea, Spurs have defensively astute CM/CDM.
I'm 100% sure I know the manager knows what he doing regarding the midfield
If he feels like wee don't need a destroyer in the middle this season if we get DeJong, I'm sure he make it work.
Can always keeping adding pieces over time and the next transfer windows once we get the pieces wee want this window
Exactly. I think Ten Hag might be underestimating the PL. All of our rivals play under different managers and systems but they all have a defense-minded midfielder, even if they are not pure DMs. We have none. With a midfield of Bruno - Eriksen - De Jong (or any other combination of our midfielders) we will get carved open. Especially with the state of our back four and GK. This is a mistake.
This could be a huge mistake again. We need someone as a DM, and my guess is Lisandro Martinez will end up there in big games.
Imagine that, we end up paying 50m pounds for a CB and we need him at CDM where by most accounts he is not very good.
I never said a DM wasn't required, merely stated that you can play football without one.
Football can be played in numerous ways, a DM is not critical to playing successful football, especially if it's possession based.
A number 6 doesn't have to be a destroyer, look at Carrick, covered the spaces well yet wasn't a typical CDM.
I don't think we need an out and out DM. Compared to previous seasons anyway...
Hopefully, with Ten Hag's coaching, we'll be able to press better as a team and not be as open in midfield (the defensive line should be higher, so not as big a gap either)... Then when in possession, look to keep the ball better/for longer periods - especially should we get Eriksen and De Jong.
Hopefully, with Ten Hag's coaching, we'll be able to press better as a team and not be as open in midfield (the defensive line should be higher, so not as big a gap either)... Then when in possession, look to keep the ball better/for longer periods - especially should we get Eriksen and De Jong.
The problem being our offensive players (not just Ronaldo, but Rashford, Martial and the rest) failing at pressing when previous managers tried to get pressing into the team. Ending up with Ole using Dan James for example.
So chances are we need to replace them with players who will work hard without the ball as well as with it. That would likely take more changes and more money than having someone reliable to help defend starting from the midfield position. Especially because right now our attacking players arent good at pressing, but neither are they good at coming back to double up against a fullback joining the opponent's attack. Our fullbacks are constantly pitted against 2 players out wide who can play the ball between them, with McTominay sometimes back to put in a token gesture to help out. He's not good at it and isnt consistently there to help and the wide forwards are "cheating" further forward, or caught up the pitch from failed pressing so they dont get back and help.
Worth remembering that that was the case in the Champions League as well as the Eredivise too - there are quite a few posters scoffing at the idea of deploying a midfield like that in the Premier League but the configuration was effective in knocking out Juventus and Real Madrid. They also drew against Bayern twice in the group stages with de Jong and Schone missing a game each, and Blind moving into midfield on both occasions. Folk talk about the Premier League here like it's a different sport. It is now an elite league and the quality is high, but not moreso than it was in that year's Champions League.
I am slightly surprised at he number of people still insisting that the unconventional has no place in the English league, given what Guardiola has achieved here.
Martinez will be played as a CDM next FDJ if we can get them both. Buy Torres to play togheter with Varane, Malacia will shine and get a RB (I would go for Mukiele. 1 year left on the contract, Leipzig want 10m for him, phad 3 goals 5 assist playing mostly this season as one of 3 CBs). Antony so we can finally have a real RW. Eriksen for 0m is a no brainer.
DDG
Mukiele Varane Torres Malacia
Martinez Bruno FDJ
Antony Ronaldo Sancho
DDG
Mukiele Varane Torres Malacia
Martinez Bruno FDJ
Antony Ronaldo Sancho
I agree with the jist of it, we aren't necessarily looking for a DM. But it won't be Eriksen next to Frenkie. My guess is a ball winner next to Frenkie to just fill in when Frenkie moves around, but generally starts off more advanced than Frenkie who will start as the deepest player.
VdB/Garner-----FDJ/Fred
--------Bruno/Eriksen
--------Bruno/Eriksen