Let's all laugh at Spain

[Barbara Charles]

This is where my issue is too. I see particularly in Pedri, a player who has the ability to keep the ball really well when pressured....and that's it. What does he do with that skill?

Iniesta used to roam around his side of the pitch, providing support to players struggling to keep the ball due to him being able to keep the ball even in the tightest circumstances. This made it easy to retain possession, but also made it easy to do this in more dangerous areas of the pitch. He also used to be able to drive when presented, whilst also having a very exact through ball, which he used to provide additional penetration. So far, outside of moving the ball, I don't see any of the roles and duties Iniesta had.

In comparison to Xavi. Xavi also had this ability to keep the ball, but he also used his sharp first touch to open up angles for himself to make passes. Further to this, he always requested for the ball and was always trying to set the tempo of the game. He provided an additional link to the defence by coming deeper at times, but for the most part, where Iniesta acted as a responder, providing support to teammates struggling to keep possession; Xavi was taking the ball to ensure the flow of play. He also roamed, sometimes playing one-two's in order to get back control of the ball for a switch of play or with an eye to make a penetrative pass.

What I see from both Pedri and Gavi is them simply passing the ball with no real assignment. Gavi can at times provide more of a box to box presence with runs and defensive actions, which he does decently, but not at the level people make it out to be ( which is fair given his age). Pedri doesn't dictate a game, yet people act like when they see Barcelona having more possession than their opposition, Pedri in particular must be the heartbeat of that. Which isn't the case. I actually think Busquets has more of a claim to that, in a similar way to what Fernandinho and Rodri are doing for City. In fact, I'll go as far as saying the duo are actually Man City's 2019 midfield without David Silva or Bernardo Silva's dribbling action or occassional penetrative passes....meaning that they aren't the hub of the possession football. For Barca, Kounde, Alba, Busquets, Frenkie and Eric Garcia provide more passes that Pedri, who provides 51 per game. Gavi averages 29 passes per game. In contrast, Xavi was averaging 100+ passes per game, whilst Iniesta was averaging around 70 passes.

I'm not saying they have to be exact copies, but I really don't see exact roles either. You have people calling them better than a young Fabregas. People saying they are better than a creative dribbling attacking juggernaut in Musiala, a box to box force in Bellingham and the perfect destroyer with good technical skills in Tchouemeni. I'm not even including the likes of Foden here either.

What an informative analysis. Thanks.

 

[adexkola]

I thought people were just upset at boring football? Same ire was directed at Netherlands, no? This is like pulling the race card unnecessarily..

Wait what what???

 

[Charles Miller]

Not gonna lie, i've made some jokes about their style in the past to annoy the culés. But i think they shouldn't change it.

When a team or nt park the bus and is defeated, majority of pundits, journalists and even supporters tend to blame players or some specific mistake from the manager. But when possession oriented teams are eliminated, there is this consensus they are doing something wrong and need to change.

They would be irrelevant playing as everybody else. There is nothing wrong with the style. They just need better attacking players. Nobody can dribble there.

 

[NoPace]

The style is deeply rooted. I've seen teams of 6-year-olds completely robotic. "Pass to two touches, and if possible to the first. All the lower categories play the same way.
The problem as @NoPace says is being unable to adapt to the game. If you can't play in the middle, put in two wingers. Use Pedri/Gavi/the next Pedri to give speed and verticality to the game.
Look at the difference in speed and verticality of the Portuguese midfield and ours.
Alba and Busquets didn't make much sense, put Rodri in with Busquets in the middle or have the courage to sit Busquets.
As for the next coach, it looks like they will go for Marcelino.

I didn't pick them to win it because I wasn't impressed enough with the Barca midfield this year and the wingers weren't ready with Williams too young, Fati too injured or just not special (Ferran is a decent wide forward but not a good winger, Sarabia maybe just came a year late for him and he's also not special, Olmo is a solid and versatile player but not an obvious starter for a contending WC team, maybe as the most attacking midfielder in a 3 he could get there).

I'm a little surprised that Enrique didn't come to the same conclusion and try to play a narrower team that would lose the ball more but could deal with counters much better, with Rodri as DM, another creator in midfield and 2 up top.

Even playing Busquets and Rodri in midfield would have annoyed everyone, but given the fullbacks a chance to push on while letting an attacking 3 of Pedri, probably Gavi and either Olmo or Soler float around with some freedom. Again the issue here is that you lose the ball and have to trust either Pau Torres, Garcia or Guillamon at RCB.

Now that I think of it, maybe going full 1990 Barcelona would have done the trick. Solves the 2 left-footers in defence issue at least:

Pino-------------Morata-----------------Nico
------------------------Pedri-----------------------
------------Koke--------------Llorente--------
-----------------------Rodri------------------------
------Torres-Laporte-Garcia/Azpi------

Pino probably seems like a weird call but he's used to playing wide and has a lot of the qualities that guys like Mitoima and Trossard have shown for Brighton when they play 4 CMs, which this would effectively be since Llorente would be getting into the box constantly to add goal threat and Koke doesn't really do a ton of that anyways.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It was like being waterboarded for 90 mins whilst getting dry anal with a lit stick of dynamite and having to listen to a ronaldo sermon about how he is better than jesus dipped in chocolate.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Wait what what???

You were suggesting they were being unfairly or harshly criticized for being tiki right?

 

[adexkola]

You were suggesting they were being unfairly or harshly criticized for being tiki right?

Leaving that for a moment, you compared what I did to playing the race card???

Brother, do you need ice for that muscle strain? It's at least a grade 2

 

[mu4c_20le]

Leaving that for a moment, you compared what I did to playing the race card???

Brother, do you need ice for that muscle strain? It's at least a grade 2

Seeing something that isn't there? Does give off the same energy, yeah

 

[WeePat]

Seeing something that isn't there? Does give off the same energy, yeah

You might wanna stop digging that hole mate

 

[mu4c_20le]

You might wanna stop digging that hole mate

Agreed, he's getting serious.

 

[antohan]

Pino-------------Morata-----------------Nico
------------------------Pedri-----------------------
------------Koke--------------Llorente--------
-----------------------Rodri------------------------
------Torres-Laporte-Garcia/Azpi------

Pino, Nico, Pedri, Koke, Rodri, Azpi... feck off

Their problem is they sound more like a boy band than a football team

 

[Red Pumpkin]

It's funny to hear Rodri, we've heard the same from Xavi about they feel they won because they had more possession. I recall Morocco having the best chances, they could've ended the game in the 90 mins easily. Morocco had the audacity to defend while Costa Rica were still unpacking and watched on.

A draw to Germany, a loss to Japan, a 0-0 draw with Morocco and even with all the Moroccan players taken away for them, the ball placed on the spot just yards from goal they still couldn't score.

I understand the complaints but it's plain wrong and stupid. In sports you need to play to your strengths. Look at boxing, for instance. Mayweather played to his strengths and went 50-0. If he had tried to slug it out he would have been KOed and brain dead today. Opponents may have thought he ran and should have wars but instead he consistently outboxed them by being more agile, smart and scoring points.

Spain’s refusal to counter against Morocco is just an example of system for the sake of system. There was one point in the game where two Morrocan players slipped and Spain had a chance to counter but chose to pass the ball back and recycle side to side, while every Morocco player got back in position again. That sort of stuff is unforgivable.

Some of the tactical nerds were talking about the perfection of their positioning in the opening games, but when you’re so ingrained to a system like that, when it doesn’t go to plan it becomes predictable and none of the players know how to adapt to a plan be or a more versatile style.

I saw a great graph on twitter yesterday. On the X it showed how slow or fast teams passed the ball, on the Y it showed how direct or intrinsic teams build ups are. Data from the World Cup only.

Spain was by miles the slowest and most intrinsic. No other team was remotely close to them in the graph.

Morocco was maybe the most direct team of the tournament, top 3 at least. Medium paced build up.

To me that means we got two witness two extremes that got amplified when in direct confrontation. Tiki taka vs Catenaccio.

Thing is Tiki taka only works if you have end product. Messi, Villa, Torres, Suarez. Otherwise it's crap. Spain 2008-2012 is an anomaly. Never before or since have they won a Euros or a World Cup if I'm not mistaken.

And same goes for Catenaccio. Mourinhos defensive counter attacking teams always had a great striker up top. This position is Moroccos weakest by far otherwise this could have ended 2-0. And thus 0-0 was a logical end result.

 

[colombianmancunian]

They arrogantly believe they should have won because they had possession. In reality possession just for the sake of it is worthless, let them have the ball and pass it sideways all day long, boring style that makes people fall asleep. Football is won by goals, not fecking possession.

 

[kthanksbye]

I'm disappointed, but not surprised, really like the midfield duo of Pedri and Gavi, but watching the team being so inflexible was painful to watch, the just refuse to play a cross or a pass that might not come off, and Morocco was giving them very little space to penetrate in. This style of football looks good when the opposition is pressing, they can play one touch passes in triangles, break the press and exploit the space that's created, Morocco gave them nothing, and they refused to play any percentage balls in the box, even after Morata came on, almost as if everyone was expecting someone else to play the final ball, it was annoying.

 

[bringbackbebe]

I'm disappointed, but not surprised, really like the midfield duo of Pedri and Gavi, but watching the team being so inflexible was painful to watch, the just refuse to play a cross or a pass that might not come off, and Morocco was giving them very little space to penetrate in. This style of football looks good when the opposition is pressing, they can play one touch passes in triangles, break the press and exploit the space that's created, Morocco gave them nothing, and they refused to play any percentage balls in the box, even after Morata came on, almost as if everyone was expecting someone else to play the final ball, it was annoying.

Reminded me of us under Van Gaal. We didn't score goals and we didn't concede goals either. LVG would have his balls on fury if he saw a move that was risky & could lose possession. Fair to say that form of football is dead & is not going to win competitions any longer.

 

[kthanksbye]

Reminded me of us under Van Gaal. We didn't score goals and we didn't concede goals either. LVG would have his balls on fury if he saw a move that was risky & could lose possession. Fair to say that form of football is dead & is not going to win competitions any longer.

You're right, I think that style of football works really well when you have a few players who can beat a man and play a final ball or score a goal, because the system enables the wingers to get into 1v1 situations with the fullbacks.
Someone has to take a risk and do something, otherwise it just looks dull and becomes ineffective.

 

[Rolaholic]

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[NoPace]

Pino, Nico, Pedri, Koke, Rodri, Azpi... feck off

Their problem is they sound more like a boy band than a football team

Azpilicueta is too long to type everytime, but the others are their names.

 

[carvajal]

Pino, Nico, Pedri, Koke, Rodri, Azpi... feck off

Their problem is they sound more like a boy band than a football team

You are right and why Koke when you can be called Jorge Resurrección Merodio

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Not gonna lie, i've made some jokes about their style in the past to annoy the culés. But i think they shouldn't change it.

When a team or nt park the bus and is defeated, majority of pundits, journalists and even supporters tend to blame players or some specific mistake from the manager. But when possession oriented teams are eliminated, there is this consensus they are doing something wrong and need to change.

They would be irrelevant playing as everybody else. There is nothing wrong with the style. They just need better attacking players. Nobody can dribble there.

Yeah there’s nothing wrong with the idea behind their style and their technical ability, it’s just indulged and taken to extremes. If they were the same but even 10% more direct it would be better. But they’re far too ingrained within their system. Nobody is saying pump it long, just don’t take the piss with the passing.

 

[JPRouve]

You are right and why Koke when you can be called Jorge Resurrección Merodio

It's the only name that I actually know, it's such a shame that he keeps hiding it. Imagine Koke leading a comeback and the commentator screaming, "Resurrección!".

 

[giorno]

They did not have this problem at the euros with Koke in the middle and Pedri acting as a classic AM.

Think Lucho's barcelonitis forcing in Gavi forced Pedri deeper and lost them the attacking edge. Also Olmo as a false 9 is ok against teams that don't want to park the bus, otherwise you need a presence in the box and somebody to stretch the play in behind...Spain were poor at this WC, have been poor for a while in fact including the NL, and Lucho seems to have lost his touch from 2021 - where their issue was purely poor finishing but otherwise they were great

 

[RoyH1]

It's the only name that I actually know, it's such a shame that he keeps hiding it. Imagine Koke leading a comeback and the commentator screaming, "Resurrección!".

Would have been the easiest chant ever for our fans at Old Trafford had he ever played for us.

 

[PoTMS]

Enrique been sacked? And there was me calling him and Flick the best coach in international football.

 

[Pintu]

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[The Firestarter]

Enrique been sacked? And there was me calling him and Flick the best coach in international football.

That was funny indeed

 

[Righteous Steps]

it’s funny a couple games and people were saying Pedri is already top 2-3 midfielders in the world, silence now.

 

[carvajal]

De la Fuente is the new coach.He has been with the U21s and other under
He has won but sometimes there are incomprehensible line-up decisions.
A choice that leaves everyone cold and to continue with the same model.

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[The_Midfielder]

They don't have strikers .. They are still calling Moratta who looks world class 1 day and pub level the next .. They need a Villa, Torres replacement
Their wingers are not that good .. Compare their wingers with Brazil, Portugal, England..
They play good football but until they fill in these positions, they will not win anything

 

[pierrethesnack]

A choice that leaves everyone cold and to continue with the same model.

He has a better name, the players will respect him more and it will be great.

 

[Fortitude]

it’s funny a couple games and people were saying Pedri is already top 2-3 midfielders in the world, silence now.

Do you think he isn't, or that anything has changed with regard to his standing?

Only thing that could happen at this World Cup was him being elevated further.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I think that it's a bit premature to call him one of the top 2 midfielders in the world, yes.

 

[Fortitude]

I think that it's a bit premature to call him one of the top 2 midfielders in the world, yes.

'1 or 2' is a nonsense in this tide of change; top-bracketed? Was and still is and easily one of the most coveted midfielders on the planet, just that he'll only be on the open market once Barcelona's world actually ends.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Still can't get over how fecking boring that was yesterday.

I tried watching it last night. Next thing I know it's 3:30am and I'm still on the sofa (@esmufc07)

 

[RoyH1]

'1 or 2' is a nonsense in this tide of change; top-bracketed? Was and still is and easily one of the most coveted midfielders on the planet, just that he'll only be on the open market once Barcelona's world actually ends.

With that debt that might not be too far off in the future

 

[Threesus]

People forget that because of their dynastic run from 2008-2012, but they were more or less the same as England, hyped going to every tournament and doing nothing of note.

Think they need WC wingers and a striker if they want to win it all. olmo and asensio are not it.

 

[Fortitude]

With that debt that might not be too far off in the future

He’ll be the last lever! Down with the ship stuff!

 

[demetre]

Not gonna lie, i've made some jokes about their style in the past to annoy the culés. But i think they shouldn't change it.

When a team or nt park the bus and is defeated, majority of pundits, journalists and even supporters tend to blame players or some specific mistake from the manager. But when possession oriented teams are eliminated, there is this consensus they are doing something wrong and need to change.

They would be irrelevant playing as everybody else. There is nothing wrong with the style. They just need better attacking players. Nobody can dribble there.

Agree. Nothing wrong with the style. They don't have world class attackers like they used to. Morata, Olmo, Ferran, Sarabia, Asensio - it's just so meh.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Do you think he isn't, or that anything has changed with regard to his standing?

Only thing that could happen at this World Cup was him being elevated further.

I think he could easily be in the top 10 or whatever, at current he is a top talent with the potential to be one of the best in his generation, but the talent and actual performances for me show there is still a sizeable gap between the two. I don’t think he has been consistent enough to make any claim of him being close to the best midfielder in the world, other players actually have to earn such titles some times season after season of consistency, Pedri hasn’t even had one season of such so right now most comments are based of the odd game we catch, his natural talent and the potential we see him to be great.

I think at the moment he is even less accomplished than Bellingham and Musiala, he’s an incredible talent but we should allow him to prove this with consistent performances over seasons before we crown him.

 

[Fortitude]

I think he could easily be in the top 10 or whatever, at current he is a top talent with the potential to be one of the best in his generation, but the talent and actual performances for me show there is still a sizeable gap between the two. I don’t think he has been consistent enough to make any claim of him being close to the best midfielder in the world, other players actually have to earn such titles some times season after season of consistency, Pedri hasn’t even had one season of such so right now most comments are based of the odd game we catch, his natural talent and the potential we see him to be great.

I think at the moment he is even less accomplished than Bellingham and Musiala, he’s an incredible talent but we should allow him to prove this with consistent performances over seasons before we crown him.

It can easily be argued it’s a question of utilisation and supplementary components/others to facilitate his game; what he does, he’s already one of the best in the world at, and I don’t think that’d be laughed out of any discussion, tbh. His market value isn’t just potential as, if you’re a possession-based side, he’s obviously going to be the jewel in the crown kind of player.

I’m less sure about Gavi and other players coming up through Spain’s ranks, but Pedri looks like a different class of player to me personally - in the right categorisation, he’s top percentile in the game. Obviously, if you want a more rounded midfielder, you’re going to call for a different kind of midfielder, a Kimmich or whatever, but a ball retentive one? Pedri’s going to be one of the first names to roll off the tongue because he is superb at those aspects of midfield play.