Libraries scrapping late fees

[Cheimoon]

They're doing this at the Ottawa public library:

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The main reason is to remove a barrier to reading for poor people:

Late fines really penalize people least able to pay them, the most vulnerable in our communities. They put up barriers for people. We want them to come to the library. We want them to read our books. We want them to feel very comfortable and not fear people that want your money. That's not what we're about. Libraries are about encouraging access and connectivity and curiosity, and when you have fees like this, you just don't do that.

It sounds stupid - won't people just hold on to their books far too long? And why would poor people care in particular? (Btw: there is still a restocking fee if you lose or damage the book.) But this is actually evidence-based policy, following the experience with the same.measure in e.g. Chicago and Salt Lake City. Here are some relevant Chicago numbers:

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Pretty cool. And amazing how, even when it comes to something simple like late fees at a library, tough on crime turns out to be bad policy, and decriminalization a great idea.

 

[calodo2003]

They're doing this at the Ottawa public library:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

The main reason is to remove a barrier to reading for poor people:


It sounds stupid - won't people just hold on to their books far too long? And why would poor people care in particular? (Btw: there is still a restocking fee if you lose or damage the book.) But this is actually evidence-based policy, following the experience with the same.measure in e.g. Chicago and Salt Lake City. Here are some relevant Chicago numbers:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Pretty cool. And amazing how, even when it comes to something simple like late fees at a library, tough on crime turns out to be bad policy, and decriminalization a great idea.

Who’d of thunk it, right?

Too bad many will use the $1 million in lost fees as an argument against such policies.

Do you know how these decisions are made? Would be surprised if it’s just up to a single commissioner to arbitrarily make a call with such financial impact.

 

[NinjaFletch]

This happened at my uni library with the same justification being made. The truth of the matter was they'd changed catalogue management systems to the cheapest supplier and there was no ability in the new system to take fines.

 

[Solius]

Pretty sure I'm still banned from my hometown library because of a random book I apparently never returned.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Bit confused, what's the link between poverty and not being able to return a book?

On this too - Libraries in the UK are a bit weird. If I look for a book, I'll usually find it's scattered between 8 different libraries in the regional area and I've no means to get to more than two of them. Therefore I usually just buy it, not helping them at all.

Best one was in Birmingham as it was absolutely stacked and had almost every book I wanted to read. Great facilities too, especially language classes.

 

[KirkDuyt]

A nobel effort, but as with a lot of nobel efforts, humanity will find a way to cock it up. People will just never return books until there are none left.

Or maybe I'm just a cynic.

Also, poor people can return a book time can't they?

Edit: wait you have to pay when you lose the book? What is the time limit between late and lost?

 

[dbs235]

Bit confused, what's the link between poverty and not being able to return a book?

I'd like to know this too. The tweet says it's "decriminalising poverty"? How are late fees making being poor a crime?

 

[Vidyoyo]

I'd like to know this too. The tweet says it's "decriminalising poverty"? How are late fees making being poor a crime?

Yeah. I assume it's because poor people are having to pay for late library fines, which begs the question, why are they late returning books?

 

[Cheimoon]

Who’d of thunk it, right?

Too bad many will use the $1 million in lost fees as an argument against such policies.

Do you know how these decisions are made? Would be surprised if it’s just up to a single commissioner to arbitrarily make a call with such financial impact.

I'm all against tough on crime and similar ideas, as I have never seen any evidence that they work (the deterrent argument is an unproven assumption), while there is plenty of evidence for the effectiveness of opposite approaches. Still, I was surprised to see that to be true even on this level.

I have no idea how a library works exactly, but they're pretty big undertakings with large assets (books and buildings) to manage, all through public money. So I suppose the have a sizeable bureaucracy, probably including an analytical team, and decision-making passing through all that. That structure seems to be confirmed if I look at the OPL page listing their upper management:

https://biblioottawalibrary.ca/en/contact-management-team

So I suppose it's like most government decision-making, which in my experience (working for the Canadian public service) tends to be pretty rigorous as long as politicians/politics stay out of it.

Bit confused, what's the link between poverty and not being able to return a book?

On this too - Libraries in the UK are a bit weird. If I look for a book, I'll usually find it's scattered between 8 different libraries in the regional area and I've no means to get to more than two of them. Therefore I usually just buy it, not helping them at all. I'd like to understand that better.

Best one was in Birmingham as it was absolutely stacked and had almost every book I wanted to read. Great facilities too, especially language classes.

Yeah, that bit surprised me also. They must have a reason to bring it up; it's so out of the blue otherwise. Maybe poor families feel discouraged from using libraries by the mere idea that forgetting to return a book could cost them?

On locations: Ottawa has 34 library locations spread out over a large area, as it is a geographically very large city. (Apparently, the longest distance between two libraries is 88km...) Here, though, you can order a book for pickup at your preferred library location. Totally free - as is library membership, for that matter. E-books are also free, so even during the pandemic I've kept on reading. I basically never buy fiction anymore now I live here. (I still buy non-fiction though, since they don't have a lot in my areas of interest and I like having those for future reference.)

 

[Cheimoon]

A nobel effort, but as with a lot of nobel efforts, humanity will find a way to cock it up. People will just never return books until there are none left.

Or maybe I'm just a cynic.

Also, poor people can return a book time can't they?

Edit: wait you have to pay when you lose the book? What is the time limit between late and lost?

That tweet from Chicago suggests that people are actually better at returning books without fees. Maybe it's people holding on to late books in the hope that the library will just forget about them and the late fee? In any case, since this is everybody's first thought (mine too), surely the libraries have also considered it. The whole library idea falls apart if books aren't returned anymore.

As for lost books, this is from the OPL website:

Items are considered lost:

• 21 days after the due date (regular collection items)
• 7 days after the due date (Express items).

Once an item is considered lost, a replacement fee equal to the cost of the item will be charged. If the lost item is returned, the replacement fee will be cancelled.

Also, @calodo2003, I found this on that same page:

Is the fee structure reviewed at any time?

Yes, the fee structure is reviewed each year as part of the budget process.

 

[KirkDuyt]

That tweet from Chicago suggests that people are exactly better at returning books without fees. Maybe it's people holding on to late books in the hope that the library will just forget about them and the late fee. In any case, since this is everybody's first thought, surely the libraries have also considered it. The whole library idea falls apart if books aren't returned anymore.

As for lost books, this is from the OPL website:


Also, @calodo2003, I found this on that same page:

Ah I see, well, it's always nice to be positively surprised by humans

 

[Caius]

I'd like to know this too. The tweet says it's "decriminalising poverty"? How are late fees making being poor a crime?

Maybe the idea is that late fees don't necessarily stop anyone from returning books late, but the fees disproportionately impact poorer people. A poor person with the same small fee as a better off person might end up keeping the book rather than return it, having their library card revoked, and being disincentivized from using libraries again.

I also see the underlying question in yours and Vidyoyo's questions: why are poor people supposedly worse at returning books, such that removing late fees is an anti-poverty measure? While I think the point above is one reason, as someone who has worked with homeless individuals and those at-risk of homelessness, the reality is that personal responsibility tends to be a problem, for whatever reason. The experience of being poor tends to make everything more difficult, and even small late fees can seem overwhelming to someone facing a large credit card debt for instance (the stress of which could easily lead to someone neglecting to return a book on time).

Honestly, deep down part of me does think 'won't all the books just be borrowed with no intention of returning?' but then I also think maybe that's just a response instilled in me by the same culture that put in place a tough on crime system. Certainly if the evidence bears out the effectiveness of eliminating late fees I fully support it. I can think of many areas in any government budget that need $1million far less than public libraries.

 

[WI_Red]

Our library system back in Bama (yes there are books there, and no it is not just the bible and art of the deal) was amazing. It was far better than what we have here in Wisconsin. While the system did have late fees they would also have quarterly "amnesty days" where you could return items, no questions asked, and you could wipe out your late fees by brining in canned foods for the local food bank.

As a side note, I have been shocked that pretty much every comparable public service we had back in Birmingham was superior to what we have experienced here in Madison.

 

[Cheimoon]

Maybe the idea is that late fees don't necessarily stop anyone from returning books late, but the fees disproportionately impact poorer people. A poor person with the same small fee as a better off person might end up keeping the book rather than return it, having their library card revoked, and being disincentivized from using libraries again.

I also see the underlying question in yours and Vidyoyo's questions: why are poor people supposedly worse at returning books, such that removing late fees is an anti-poverty measure? While I think the point above is one reason, as someone who has worked with homeless individuals and those at-risk of homelessness, the reality is that personal responsibility tends to be a problem, for whatever reason. The experience of being poor tends to make everything more difficult, and even small late fees can seem overwhelming to someone facing a large credit card debt for instance (the stress of which could easily lead to someone neglecting to return a book on time).

Honestly, deep down part of me does think 'won't all the books just be borrowed with no intention of returning?' but then I also think maybe that's just a response instilled in me by the same culture that put in place a tough on crime system. Certainly if the evidence bears out the effectiveness of eliminating late fees I fully support it. I can think of many areas in any government budget that need $1million far less than public libraries.

Thanks - that's an interesting perspective, and maybe the biggest factor.

I agree about the money. If this contributes to literacy levels improving, especially among the poor, it's money well spent (or money well not-received; but anyway).

Our library system back in Bama (yes there are books there, and no it is not just the bible and art of the deal) was amazing. It was far better than what we have here in Wisconsin. While the system did have late fees they would also have quarterly "amnesty days" where you could return items, no questions asked, and you could wipe out your late fees by brining in canned foods for the local food bank.

That sounds nice. Although contributing foodbank items doesn't help the poor that have late fees. In any case, I like these alternative ways to pay fees. Returning a book late is often not in purpose and doesn't really harm anyone. It makes a lot of sense to be creative with fees then. (If you're not abolishing them.)

 

[VorZakone]

I have a soft spot for libraries.

 

[Rado_N]

Disappointed to not see any Parks & Rec references.

 

[calodo2003]

Our library system back in Bama (yes there are books there, and no it is not just the bible and art of the deal) was amazing. It was far better than what we have here in Wisconsin. While the system did have late fees they would also have quarterly "amnesty days" where you could return items, no questions asked, and you could wipe out your late fees by brining in canned foods for the local food bank.

As a side note, I have been shocked that pretty much every comparable public service we had back in Birmingham was superior to what we have experienced here in Madison.

Why do you think that is, the service difference?

 

[Cheimoon]

Disappointed to not see any Parks & Rec references.

Once saw a bit of it and didn't like it enough. Sorry to disappoint!

 

[WI_Red]

Why do you think that is, the service difference?

I honestly don't know. Our property taxes here in WI are about 5 times higher than in AL, so it's definitely not a money thing. If anything, I think we were not being taxed enough in AL.

Take for example our garbage service:

AL:
- Trash Pick Up: 2 X a week and will pick up extra bags beside bins
- Recycle Pick Up: 1 X a week
- Bulk/Yard waste/Construction Waste Pickup: On demand, no charge
- Payment for services: Included in taxes
- Bin Size: Largest bin for everyone
- Leaf Pick Up: 4 X a year at the curb, free of charge

WI:
- Trash Pick Up: 1X a week and will run over extra bags by bins if they can
- Recycle Pick Up: 1 X every other week
- Bulk/Yard waste/Construction Waste Pickup: Nope. You can pay between $25 - $200 (depending on size/weight) extra for a one time pick up
- Payment for services: Extra from taxes and must be paid, in full, before year starts.
- Bin Size: Tiny bin for everyone. Yearly fees to get bigger bin
- Leaf Pick Up:

The difference is shocking. Library systems are similar in disparity. This may be due to difference in city/metro area size though. There seems to be fewer fire stations as well. The only constant is that the Police Department eats up 25%+ of my taxes here as well.

 

[Cheimoon]

Hamilton Public Library (southwest of Toronto) now also scrapped late fees. Given it's happened in more places in the meantime (see also above), they are not very special in doing so anymore, but the CBC article covering this (link) provided the reasons for the decision in a bit more detail this time. In the words of their Director of Collections and Program Development

• "(Charging fines) required a lot of manual work. There's the transaction, the accounting, the reporting of that transaction... When we looked at that, we actually figured out there was no actual real benefit to the library and no benefit to the membership." (This is backed by an October 2018 library board report that said staff members spent 10,319 hours processing fines the previous year. A separate report, from April, says fine revenue has been decreasing for several years, and was at $192,500 in 2019.)
• "There's a wealth of research that shows folks who are able to participate in any fines and fees process diligently pay their fines, while systematically fines and fees collect on accounts where people cannot pay.," she said, noting people who have to move suddenly because of domestic abuse or who are going through other chaotic life changes were particularly vulnerable to racking up steep fines. "The library becomes even more important in the lives of people who are going through other life challenges."

 

[Sandikan]

A nobel effort, but as with a lot of nobel efforts, humanity will find a way to cock it up. People will just never return books until there are none left.

Or maybe I'm just a cynic.

Also, poor people can return a book time can't they?

Edit: wait you have to pay when you lose the book? What is the time limit between late and lost?

Yep. What's the incentive to return a book now?
Just take it back in a few months when you want a different one.

 

[WI_Red]

Yep. What's the incentive to return a book now?Just take it back in a few months when you want a different one.

not being an asshole?

 

[KirkDuyt]

not being an asshole?

Imagine a world where that would be a sufficient incentive to not actually being an asshole.

 

[WI_Red]

Imagine a world where that would be a sufficient incentive to not actually being an asshole.

i try to. Then I drink.

 

[Sandikan]

not being an asshole?

For most of us yes. But for those who never bothered before, even under the threat of fines/bans etc?

 

[WI_Red]

For most of us yes. But for those who never bothered before, even under the threat of fines/bans etc?

assholes (still) gonna asshole I guess.

 

[Cheimoon]

Yep. What's the incentive to return a book now?
Just take it back in a few months when you want a different one.

Yeah, that was my first thought as well. Here is my earlier response to that comment:

That tweet from Chicago suggests that people are actually better at returning books without fees. Maybe it's people holding on to late books in the hope that the library will just forget about them and the late fee? In any case, since this is everybody's first thought (mine too), surely the libraries have also considered it. The whole library idea falls apart if books aren't returned anymore.

And here is that tweet about the Chicago library system:

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[Sandikan]

Yeah, that was my first thought as well. Here is my earlier response to that comment:

And here is that tweet about the Chicago library system:

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Those stats strike me like hearing there are "low" rates of crime in Amsterdam.

Yeah, because almost everything is legal there!

Of course you'll have higher rates of returning books - but it doesn't say ON TIME, which is the key part.

But libraries don't work really well if people are taking months/years to return books, that's why they have the fines in the first place.


(no i haven't read the article, i'm not 100% serious )

 

[Wibble]

Too bad many will use the $1 million in lost fees as an argument against such policies.

But how much of that was actually recovered and how much did it cost to recover them?

 

[Cheimoon]

But how much of that was actually recovered and how much did it cost to recover them?

Interestingly, Hamilton Public Library (see my post from yesterday) say their admin around fees cost more than they got back from the fees.

 

[hobbers]

The common sense approach is to not have fees for returning books late, but to have a limit on the number of books any card can have out at one time.

You've taken x number of books out? You cant have any more until you bring some back.

Simple and obvious.

 

[Cheimoon]

The common sense approach is to not have fees for returning books late, but to have a limit on the number of books any card can have out at one time.

You've taken x number of books out? You cant have any more until you bring some back.

Simple and obvious.

Christ, yes! Can't believe I didn't even think about this.

 

[elmo]

The common sense approach is to not have fees for returning books late, but to have a limit on the number of books any card can have out at one time.

You've taken x number of books out? You cant have any more until you bring some back.

Simple and obvious.

Isn't that how libraries work in the first place?

 

[Cheimoon]

Isn't that how libraries work in the first place?

It is, which is why everyone's worries that people won't return books are unnecessary. If you hold on to books forever, you (1) can't get other books anymore, and (2) eventually will have to pay the replacement fee. Not at all rocket science, but somehow it seems we completely overlooked it before @hobbers brought it up.

 

[jojojo]

It's the same policy in my local library. People do get nagging emails/texts to remind them but no late charges. I doubt many people deliberately keep a book late - it's usually down to a mistake or a problem.

I guess students etc might hang onto a text book/reference book a bit longer than they should, and that can create a queue if it's exam season, but it's a rarity. It's certainly not as important (or I think as common) as accidentally putting people off returning a book because they've just found it behind the bed and realised it's 6 months overdue.

 

[Coxy]

….
I guess students etc might hang onto a text book/reference book a bit longer than they should, and that can create a queue if it's exam season, but it's a rarity. It's certainly not as important (or I think as common) as accidentally putting people off returning a book because they've just found it behind the bed and realised it's 6 months overdue.

I work in a HE library. We automatically renew students loans (a week at a time) and then only fine if the student doesn’t return a book when another student has reserved it.

It’s not a rarity though - we do get it a lot for in demand items. We generate a lot of fine income each year - which then gets reinvested into the collection.

 

[jojojo]

I work in a HE library. We automatically renew students loans (a week at a time) and then only fine if the student doesn’t return a book when another student has reserved it.

It’s not a rarity though - we do get it a lot for in demand items. We generate a lot of fine income each year - which then gets reinvested into the collection.

Yep. I can imagine HE libraries in particular having an issue - a combination of hoarding "I might read/need it some time" and text book costs. You need something to encourage a kind of fair use behaviour, and fines are probably the cheapest way to do it.

I think it's a bit different in public libraries though, certainly once you move away from the reference work collections that maybe there's only one of across an entire district.

 

[Wibble]

Yep. I can imagine HE libraries in particular having an issue - a combination of hoarding "I might read/need it some time" and text book costs. You need something to encourage a kind of fair use behaviour, and fines are probably the cheapest way to do it.

I think it's a bit different in public libraries though, certainly once you move away from the reference work collections that maybe there's only one of across an entire district.

The advantage in HE (in terms of ease of collection) is that loans are linked to your personal account and charges go straight on your account. Don't pay = don't graduate.

 

[Wibble]

A large Sydney council have done away with late fees as well.

http://www.sutherlandshire.nsw.gov.au/nomoreoverdues

 

[WI_Red]

Our library in Hoover, AL had amnesty month (Link) every year. You could bring back any late books, no fines. Have old fines? Present your card (they wanted you to come in to jump start your patronage) and your balance was set to $0. I can not stress enough how surprisingly amazing the Jefferson County (Birmingham metro) library cooperative was. 10X better than Los Angeles, it was a gem.

Madison, WI library system is fine free