But we will score 5
Lingard: RedCafe Enemy #1?
- Thread starter horsechoker
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Yup. I don't think anyone - bar one or two - have many qualms with him starting against bigger sides and being used for more tactical reasons. However, he was roundly criticised last season for games exactly like yesterday where we failed to beat lesser opposition; but in fairness, he was being picked for those games despite showing time-and-again, that he's just not suited to games where we dominate.
If other players get their act together and nail down a starting position, then Lingrad won't have to play as much as he did last season and he can come in when needed. He will definitely be far more appreciated if that's the case, I feel. He was criticised after many a poor display last season like so many others were and deservedly so. But hopefully - very promising signs yesterday - we will play far better as an attacking unit this season and he'll benefit from that when he gets game time.
For those who keep comparing him to Fletcher....did not rate Fletcher either. The truth is, Fergie had a way of making average players look good. If Fergie was still here we'd probably still have Welbz,Clev etc here, they'll be shit and he'll still win titles with them so all this 'he could be used like Fletcher,Park' talk would make sense if Fergie was still manager. Because half the players Fergie used to win stuff, would not be playing under Mou or any other coach for that matter
As we saw against Real Madrid, he's mostly useless against bigger sides, too. Big clubs don't play "defensive wingers" (he's not even a winger, he's better through the middle) who contribute nothing at all to attacks. It smacks of inferiority complex that we believe such a role is required.
His job should be what it was on Sunday: play a few minutes here and there when the game is basically over so the better players can be taken off before picking up an injury or something.
I be honest with you, I don't remember things like being in teams of the year etc. I mean it's a joke, imo. Especially since a guy like Giggs never won the PFA Player.
Oh definitely I agree with you, we both have different opinions. Of course it's healthy. We've had a good debate. Like you say, that's what the forums about. At least we've put our opinions across in a mature manner.
But the last statement I'll make in this thread about Jesse is...he's not a first tram starter, however, a useful member of the team.
I don't necessarily buy into it at all nor do I rate him. But in fairness, he has played well against some of the bigger sides in the PL. At the end of the day, he signed a new deal last season and is going nowhere. I can't say I'm overly delighted by that, but while he's here, he will have a role to play and we know Mourinho favours more defensive minded wingers in certain games. Willian was his man at Chelsea; the difference is that Willian is a far superior player in an offensive sense.
He did, won it in 2009.
You think we have to play Lingard in certain games or we will concede 4 goals?
Jesus it's depressing even thinking about Manchester United needing a defensive winger. We're one of the worlds biggest and richest clubs we shouldn't need 'defensive wingers'. I have never seen Bayern, Barca or Real drop Robben, Neymar or Bale to play a defensive winger.
It's a bit ridiculous but it's reality, unfortunately. Though, I think if we get our act together, we will see a lot less of him this season.
Yes. If we were to play Barca or Real Madrid and went all out attack with fancy front men without thought for defensive shape, it would be suicide. Unfortunately we don't have Messi, Ronaldo, Suarez, Neymar, Bale or that kind of quality player who are good enough to win 95% of the games just by full on attacking, so we have to be a bit more pragmatic.
It's a tactical role to play which Lingard does fairly well. He's not going to be needed for every game, and he doesn't play every game so I don't see the issue. And yes, he is a good substitute to bring on in the 75th minute to rest Rashford and Martial etc as well. Only squad players like Lingard will accept that. Quality multimillion pound star players don't sit on benches for very long before demanding a move.
Defensive wingers have been around United for the last 10-15 odd years. It's really not a new concept. Valencia, Park, Fletcher in his younger days all played a role in maintaining success at the club.
Totally agree. Lingard gets so much abuse from people when it isn't warranted. I feel we live in a scapegoat mentality where people need to have person to attach all the blame too and regrettably for Jesse it would appear that people have chosen him.
I appreciate what Jesse brings to the team and understand he will never be a Messi or Ronaldo. To think he will be is daft but he is still a very talented squad player who never backs down from a challenge.
I also feel that certain fan channels on You Tube and social media have instigated a lot of the hatred thrown at Jesse. Some of it is even borderline witch hunting.
I appreciate what Jesse brings to the team and understand he will never be a Messi or Ronaldo. To think he will be is daft but he is still a very talented squad player who never backs down from a challenge.
I also feel that certain fan channels on You Tube and social media have instigated a lot of the hatred thrown at Jesse. Some of it is even borderline witch hunting.
Brilliant comment. Jesse is a great lad who gives his all to United.
Did you see the game yesterday? A breath of fresh air, players who can actually play good football, create chances, pass the ball to their own players, run and move in the correct places, defend well, hopefully Mourinho has finally discovered who should play and who should be nowhere near this team.
We played a half vs Real last week without Lingard and didn't get annihilated so i don't buy that to be honest. In fact when we had Rashford on giving their fullback something to think about defensively we actually defended slightly better down our left.
Having said that if Lingard was only deployed vs elite teams it might be a viable tactic, but we start him against all different levels of sides. I don't see the need for a 'defensive winger' vs the likes of Burnley, West Brom and Swansea at home.
Valencia was never what i would describe as a defensive winger. Park is the closest thing Ferguson ever used to a defensive winger, but the difference there was park actually was a winger and a better player than Lingard.
I don't either. I don't expect him to play those games. But then again, we need to rotate to keep everybody fresh. It's going to be a long campaign with CL football so maybe Mou will select him now and again just to keep everybody fresh. You can't play your strongest 11 players for 60 games in a row without expecting a drop in performance.
I haven't rated Valencia as a true attacking winger since 2012. Can't use his left peg, cross keeps hitting the first man, scores 0 goals. As a defensive outlet though, he is solid.
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My bad, I meant Scholes!
Agree 100% with these comments,we'r manchester united,why dont we pick our best attacking players and go out and try and actually outplay teams,theres nothing in the premier league we should be scared of.The way we set up in some of the big games last year,playin practically 6 at the back at times was embarrassing. This is on jose not jesse
With regards to jesse,im not sure the 'he's good for the big games'argument is true either,In the games against the 5 teams who finished above us last year for an example
Lingard started 4 games against them...We won 1 and lost 3 (conceded 4 away to chelsea)
In the 6 games he didnt start....We won 1 drew 4 and lost 1
We were more competitive in the big games he didnt start in,im not saying this is jesse's fault but it shows we had a rubbish record in the big games even when we had our "defensive winger" starting, Imo our wingers and main striker should always be the best attacking option available,in the big games play a hardworking midfield 3 to do the grunt and let the attacking players do what theyr supposed to be there for,score and create goals.
Lingards only crime is being a bit rubbish at football.
Which I guess is a bit bad when you're a footballer, but still he has a mighty fine dab
Which I guess is a bit bad when you're a footballer, but still he has a mighty fine dab
Based on the last two seasons i do expect him to start plenty of those games, he started in plenty last year including being an almost ever present in the starting XI from March onwards regardless of the opposition.
He's been playing as a fullback for the vast majority of the time since 2012. Before that though he wasn't a defensive winger.
Brilliant performance yesterday. Sat on the bench and waited to come on in the dying embers of the game to play a few one-twos in the middle of ther park and remain alert in tracking players on the off-chance they mounted an attack.
If he continues this role, no one would have an issue.
If he continues this role, no one would have an issue.
This.
That's what Fergie actually said in the the 2009 and 2011 Champion's League finals. Guess what happened?
When we beat them in 2008 to win the CL that year, guess what we did to them? Park the fecking bus.I'm not saying having Lingard in the team will end all our defensive woes, nor am I saying he is an excellent player. He's bang average in comparison to his peers and he probably knows that too. But hey ho, he seems to enjoy it here, doesn't complain too much and has a positive influence in the changing room rather than be like Angel Di Maria when he doesn't play.
So fair play to the lad.
Nah Valencia was a useless winger, hated by the cafe for about 2 years before he got converted by LVG and then the cafe started to like him again.
What is getting more hilarious is that his fanclub have finally realised he's crap as a forward, so they're now trying to promote his defensive qualities, which are even more non-existent than his attacking qualities unless you count getting booked for not being able to tackle as defensive qualities.
I did watch the game yesterday, and as you said it was great to see us play like that. I'm not a big fan of Lingard personally, all I will say is that Mourinho persists with him because he must be doing the job he is asked to do for the team. If he didn't he wouldn't get picked.
Lingard has contributed a lot to our cup success in recent seasons and shouldn't be binned just because we have players with more flair vying for his position. He's a very useful squad member and will get plenty of games. Got an eye for goal and it's not as though a lot of our squad players are prolific. Not a starter but plenty of top clubs wouldn't mind him on the bench.
Picked - do nothing - get subbed - everyone told jose knows best..rinse repeat.
He doesn't "do a job", that's exactly why he gets subbed all the time and have stats that vindicate his substituting everytime he is. Which is why his fan's resort to intangibles like "movement", "defensive qualities", "jose knows best", or "tracking back" to justify his inclusion and tell his critics that their obsevation skills are far too casual which is why his excellence bypasses us.
It's almost as if he's told the other players, if you don't play well I'll play Lingard in your position in the next match. Sounds ridiculous but hopefully he won't have to do that this season.
We actually played park who was a much better defensive winger than lingard in both those two finals against barcelona and got ripped to bits anyways,the final against chelsea we had scholes,tevez,ronaldo and rooney all starting which was a much more talented attacking lineup than we fielded in either barca final,the difference was Barcelona were one of the best sides ever and clearly a more talented team than us,no amount of jesse lingards would of changed either result,wheras we matched up with chelsea pretty evenly man for man.That's what Fergie actually said in the the 2009 and 2011 Champion's League finals. Guess what happened?
I'm not saying having Lingard in the team will end all our defensive woes, nor am I saying he is an excellent player. He's bang average in comparison to his peers and he probably knows that too. But hey ho, he seems to enjoy it here, doesn't complain too much and has a positive influence in the changing room rather than be like Angel Di Maria when he doesn't play.
So fair play to the lad.
We didn't park the bus at OT that year, i was at the game. We played tight and on the counter but we didn't park the bus. At the Nou Camp maybe.That's what Fergie actually said in the the 2009 and 2011 Champion's League finals. Guess what happened?
Being a useless winger isn't the same as being a defensive one though mate.
The Caf might not have liked him 12-14 but if he was useless as you say then the Caf had a legitimate reason for disliking him.
Well yes, there will be times in the CL or even in the league when we will come up against teams in better form or just better than us. Its always good to have options.
Park is better yes but unfortunately he's no longer playing, so he's not an option.
We have: Martial, Mata, Rashford, Mikhitaryan and Lingard at the moment. I think Rashford could do a decent job in tracking back, but its a waste of his talent so I'd rather Lingard do that role if it is tactically needed. The other 3? Forget about it.
Anyway, I don't want to keep defending Lingard. I'm not even that bothered whether he starts or not. But to see him constantly being ripped on is just tiring.
The point was that he was still playing every game in that period not because was contributing loads of assists and goals, but because he was contributing to the shape of the team which is slightly more subtle. If both Fergie and Mourinho appreciate players like that (and throw in Fellaini in there), then surely there must be more than meets the eye.
This thread title still cracks me up, so dramatic 
Lingard won more trophies than Messi last year so this isn't a particularly good argument.
Fergie retired in 2013, he was never likely to bin a player after one bad season. Had he stayed beyond 2014 given Tony's poor form that year i reckon he would have sold Valencia, unless he had tried to convert him to a RB also.
But anyway we are veering off topic mate.
When people use the 'trophies won' logic, it's best to call it a day.
One thing that I find confusing with Lingard, is that I don't think that he is really that grand in defense. I mean, Park had three lungs and could run all day long (a bit similar to Gattuso in that aspect), Valencia became awesome in defense when he forgot how to attack, but Lingard (like Young) is just a bit better than Martial/Rashford there, while being miles worse when it comes to attacking.
But the ultimate thing is that the defensive attacker role in United won't ever be appreciated (and it really shouldn't). We hardly see Real, Bayern, Barca and other top teams leaving their great attackers in the bench and starting with the players whose biggest attribute is running a lot (and yes, scoring in Wembley in second order competitions, I saw it too).
I am okay with Lingard having the role he had yesterday (though, truth be told, I would prefer Pereira even in that role), but when you see him starting and Martial, Mata and Rashford are in the bench, you cannot help but getting annoyed.
Anyway, quite clear that the debate is going in the same direction as Cleverley one. A lot of people loving him by the virtue of being Manc and then imaging that he is three times the player he really is, while a lot of others don't appreciating a player who really is as bad as an attacking player can be. Like in Cleverley's case, my question to people who think that he is all that, 'would you think that we would have signed him if he was playing for some other team', and more importantly 'would you have liked to sign him if he was playing for some other team'? Would love to see someone answer any of these questions with a straight face saying 'Yes'.
Supporting a player, sure, that is our job. Claiming that he is a good player? That is lying to ourselves.
But the ultimate thing is that the defensive attacker role in United won't ever be appreciated (and it really shouldn't). We hardly see Real, Bayern, Barca and other top teams leaving their great attackers in the bench and starting with the players whose biggest attribute is running a lot (and yes, scoring in Wembley in second order competitions, I saw it too).
I am okay with Lingard having the role he had yesterday (though, truth be told, I would prefer Pereira even in that role), but when you see him starting and Martial, Mata and Rashford are in the bench, you cannot help but getting annoyed.
Anyway, quite clear that the debate is going in the same direction as Cleverley one. A lot of people loving him by the virtue of being Manc and then imaging that he is three times the player he really is, while a lot of others don't appreciating a player who really is as bad as an attacking player can be. Like in Cleverley's case, my question to people who think that he is all that, 'would you think that we would have signed him if he was playing for some other team', and more importantly 'would you have liked to sign him if he was playing for some other team'? Would love to see someone answer any of these questions with a straight face saying 'Yes'.
Supporting a player, sure, that is our job. Claiming that he is a good player? That is lying to ourselves.
Lingard actually isn't even from Manchester, neither was Cleverley while we're at it.
I know but he is still from a city just 20 miles off Manchester (and Liverpool for that matter), but more importantly, he has been playing for us since 2000 when he was 8 years old.
If Lingard starts, I find it's usually because of two reasons:
1) There's someone on the opposition wing that needs an eye kept upon. Could be Messi, Ronaldo, Alexis, Bernardo Silva, Riyad Mahrez, Dele Alli whoever.
2) Martial, Mikh, Mata, Rashford are injured, out of form or knackered.
I don't think Mourinho starts Lingard and expects him to score or assist 2-3 goals every game.
1) There's someone on the opposition wing that needs an eye kept upon. Could be Messi, Ronaldo, Alexis, Bernardo Silva, Riyad Mahrez, Dele Alli whoever.
2) Martial, Mikh, Mata, Rashford are injured, out of form or knackered.
I don't think Mourinho starts Lingard and expects him to score or assist 2-3 goals every game.