Lionel Messi is OFFICIALLY the Greatest Player of all Time (CONFIRMED OFFICIAL)

[Vialli_92]

For me, Ronaldo's record in the cl knockouts is why I have him as the best, it's by some distance the highest level of football in the world, and Ronaldo is miles ahead of anyone else in it, with that difference getting more pronounced if you take out the last 16. Messi was definitely a better league player and while neither ever replicated their club level at international, this tournament for Messi was enough to make him a better international player. But I think the performances in the later rounds of the champions League hold more weight personally.

But Ronaldo looks like he's done and Messi could have another few years at PSG so that's still possible. I realise this opinion isnt shared by everyone but it's the same way I've felt for years and why messi is far clear of maradona and Pele, because what you do over 15 years of your career is a better indicator of ability than 7 games every 4 years

Yeah being a tapin merchant. A box player can't be better than someone who plays in midfield and attack while matching or bettering Ronaldo for scoring.

It's a simple eye test that is needed and nothing else to determine that Messi Plays to a level Ronaldo could never come close to.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Federer was not better than Djokovic or Nadal. I love him, and he might be my favorite sportsman ever, but it is very hard to argue that he was better than them, especially Djokovic.

Is Hamilton considered better than Schumacher?

No debate for Messi and Jordan.

Plenty of debate for Messi and Jordan actually. Pele and Maradona for the former and Kareem and LeBron for latter.

 

[jm99]

Yeah being a tapin merchant. A box player can't be better than someone who plays in midfield and attack while matching or bettering Ronaldo for scoring.

It's a simple eye test that is needed and nothing else to determine that Messi Plays to a level Ronaldo could never come close to.

It's a bit odd to describe Ronaldo as a tap-in merchant, I mean even if you had that opinion 70 goals in the knockout stages of the champions league with 40+ from the quarter finals onwards is ridiculous, not to mention you have goals like his overhead kick Vs juventus, his two against arsenal for us etc. Ronaldo's knockout goals alone even totally discounting the group stage would have him at number 5 all time which is insane.

 

[Lord SInister]

GOAT debate asides, I am thinking but it cannot be a co-incidence that Messi strated winning in International level after he left Barcelona

 

[Vialli_92]

It's a bit odd to describe Ronaldo as a tap-in merchant, I mean even if you had that opinion 70 goals in the knockout stages of the champions league with 40+ from the quarter finals onwards is ridiculous, not to mention you have goals like his overhead kick Vs juventus, his two against arsenal for us etc. Ronaldo's knockout goals alone even totally discounting the group stage would have him at number 5 all time which is insane.

And this is what Ronaldo fans just don't get. It takes more than goalscoring to be better than Messi.

Messi is controlling the whole attack from midfield and putting out insane numbers that match or better Ronaldo.

Ronaldo is not involved in the game even half as much as Messi is and just needs to wait to get on the end of a chance to score a goal and people try to argue he's as good or better than Messi despite having little influence over a match in 90 minutes outside of the 18 yard box.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Federer was not better than Djokovic or Nadal. I love him, and he might be my favorite sportsman ever, but it is very hard to argue that he was better than them, especially Djokovic.

Is Hamilton considered better than Schumacher?

No debate for Messi and Jordan.

Federer is the greatest!

 

[jm99]

And this is what Ronaldo fans just don't get. It takes more than goalscoring to be better than Messi.

Messi is controlling the whole attack from midfield and putting out insane numbers that match or better Ronaldo.

Ronaldo is not involved in the game even half as much as Messi is and just needs to wait to get on the end of a chance to score a goal and people try to argue he's as good or better than Messi despite having little influence over a match in 90 minutes outside of the 18 yard box.

Ronaldo's also the top assister in champions league history

 

[Vialli_92]

Ronaldo's also the top assister in champions league history

Have you ever watched him play? It's not like he's some creative genius. An impressive stat along with his goalscoring however comparing to Messi he's not close to his ability to play football.

 

[jm99]

Have you ever watched him play? It's not like he's some creative genius. An impressive stat along with his goalscoring however comparing to Messi he's not close to his ability to play football.

I mean you literally just said Ronaldo waits in the box to get on the end of chances and doesn't move from the 18 yard box, and in response I've told you he's the top assister in history, it sounds like you don't watch him play, because it doesn't really make sense for the top assister in history to just wait to get on the end of chances. What might be confusing you, is that you're a juventus fan and that's the type of player he became at juventus, but at Madrid he always played off the wing and never up front as a poacher

 

[Amazing Santos]

It is really sad for the Messi haters when they are reduced to this growth hormones argument. Even Sporting’s argument are less sad than this lul

He did take growth hormones for years though which would have impacted for the better how he plays.

I'm not a hater, I just don't prescribe to reducing it to a GOAT or not GOAT because he won a World Cup final with a penalty and a tap in, wasn't even the best player on the pitch.

 

[RacingClub]

I mean you literally just said Ronaldo waits in the box to get on the end of chances and doesn't move from the 18 yard box, and in response I've told you he's the top assister in history, it sounds like you don't watch him play, because it doesn't really make sense for the top assister in history to just wait to get on the end of chances.

Unless most of his assists come from inside the box?

 

[Malone_Post]

Ronaldo's also the top assister in champions league history

He has 2 more assists then Messi having played 26 more matches, so he probably won’t be for much longer.

 

[Lord SInister]

Ronaldo's also the top assister in champions league history

See this is the point, most people miss. Assists doesn't equate to a player being a top notch playmaker.

See the bull shit thesis of Cristiano being an Ingazhi asides, Cristiano was/ still is(I think he just requires a good environment to flourish, and him to keep his ego aside) a top class player. He was capable of performing many things in the field of football. But the thing is, Cristiano had to sacrifice some of the aspects of his game to achieve the level of productivity that Messi had. Messi never had to change his game to achieve that productivity. And their is nothing wrong in that, not everyone is blessed with the talent Messi has.

Both are phenomenal players, and it gets annoying with each side trying to pull down the other with almost non-sensical arguments.

 

[jm99]

He has 2 more assists then Messi having played 26 more matches, so he probably won’t be for much longer.

I wasn't actually trying to argue he's more creative than Messi by any means, just trying to argue against him standing around contributing nothing, it sounds like something someone who only saw the last five years of Ronaldo's career would say

 

[jm99]

See this is the point, most people miss. Assists doesn't equate to a player being a top notch playmaker.

See the bull shit thesis of Cristiano being an Ingazhi asides, Cristiano was/ still is(I think he just requires a good environment to flourish, and him to keep his ego aside) a top class player. He was capable of performing many things in the field of football. But the thing is, Cristiano had to sacrifice some of the aspects of his game to achieve the level of productivity that Messi had. Messi never had to change his game to achieve that productivity. And their is nothing wrong in that, not everyone is blessed with the talent Messi has.

Both are phenomenal players, and it gets annoying with each side trying to pull down the other with almost non-sensical arguments.

Again I wasn't trying to suggest the assist record meant he was the most creative player in the champions league, just that he contributed a lot more than just goals, not really when he signed for us again but his first run for us and his entire time at real Madrid. Reading this thread you'd think he was a poacher who'd never scored from outside like van nistelrooy

 

[Vialli_92]

I mean you literally just said Ronaldo waits in the box to get on the end of chances and doesn't move from the 18 yard box, and in response I've told you he's the top assister in history, it sounds like you don't watch him play, because it doesn't really make sense for the top assister in history to just wait to get on the end of chances. What might be confusing you, is that you're a juventus fan and that's the type of player he became at juventus, but at Madrid he always played off the wing and never up front as a poacher

Because he has assists it means he's getting all these assists from outside the box and being active in the whole build up?

I've watched plenty of him at Madrid. He developed into a box player towards 2012 if memory serves me right where he would drift out of games with not much of an influence on the build up play.

I remember as far back as Bayern 2012 he scored 2 goals but literally had no influence on the game apart from those 2 moments one being a penalty.

I liked to think of him as a hybrid poacher, start on the left and find his way into the box where he would be quite active to get on the end of something or provide the assist. He was very effective at losing his man and finding the space at the end one of the best with off the ball movement I've ever seen and best in the air i have ever seen.

 

[tom8888sa]

Jordan, Messi, Brady, Federer, Hamilton

Mount Rushmore

I do not mean offense but I don't think Brady should be in this conversation(i had to look him up). This isn't to say Brady isn't great, but the vast majority of the World do not watch NFL and cannot make an accurate assessement of his greatness. This might be hard for Americans to believe but none of my friends in Italy have even heard of Brady or any NFL teams. NFL players are not popular globally(look at social media following and even Gareth Bale have more followers than any NFL guy) and Europeans/South American pundits do not know enough about NFL to compare sports.

Jordan and Ali I also don't find it fair. Most of the world just recently started playing basketball and is still decades behind the only country that takes it super seriously (usa)
Heavyweight Boxing the Eastern Bloc was always 'fenced off' from America's heavyweight scene and it wasn't until the mid to late 90's that they were able to join the party. Once that happened the heavyweight champions became Eastern Europeans.. I just find it funny the only sports Americans take seriously are usually overwhelmingly played by Americans only.

Let's put this into perspective.. imagine ONLY England and the English played soccer and the rest of the World didn't care or played. Harry Kane will be the 'World's best striker', pretty hollow title .. The greatest ever will be like Frank Lampard or something

Mind you I'm not saying American sports don't matter, I'm saying it doesn't matter in relation to a global sport like football.

 

[Lord SInister]

Again I wasn't trying to suggest the assist record meant he was the most creative player in the champions league, just that he contributed a lot more than just goals, not really when he signed for us again but his first run for us and his entire time at real Madrid. Reading this thread you'd think he was a poacher who'd never scored from outside like van nistelrooy

Cristiano developed into a selfish ass very early on. That is the reason why people don't see him as anything other than goal stat merchant. While it is not entirely true, as he has after all a huge number of assists. But he like Salah or Mbappe(two players with huge number of assists, but otherwise seen as selfish pricks), tends to have I go first attitude when it comes to goal, which has clouded this judgement of him being nothing apart from goals. He was ofcourse a contributor, but when compared to Messi it is just well behind.

 

[jm99]

Because he has assists it means he's getting all these assists from outside the box and being active in the whole build up?

I've watched plenty of him at Madrid. He developed into a box player towards 2012 if memory serves me right where he would drift out of games with not much of an influence on the build up play.

I remember as far back as Bayern 2012 he scored 2 goals but literally had no influence on the game apart from those 2 moments one being a penalty.

I liked to think of him as a hybrid poacher, start on the left and find his way into the box where he would be quite active to get on the end of something or provide the assist. He was very effective at losing his man and finding the space at the end one of the best with off the ball movement I've ever seen and best in the air i have ever seen.

In 2012 he was a key part of mourinho's incredible counter attacking side, a lot of those assists probably came during these rapid counter attacks. I'm not saying he was threading perfect through balls like Messi, but his positioning on the break, his off the ball running created chances in the same way. One is more pleasing on the eye and probably takes more skill, but it shouldn't detract from the value of what Ronaldo did. He was a threat from range, a threat in the air, his passing wasn't spectacular but it did the job. Messi's strongest attributes, passing and dribbling are some of the more traditionally valued, sure, but Ronaldo's knockout and cl record (which only started after his first 30 games) were key for Madrid winning so many of those CLs the last decade, I think writing him off as a glorified poacher is bizarre.

 

[Zehner]

The system of measure that you have all put in place is designed purposely so that Messi can literally never fail. Ronaldo's strengths are given no weight what-so-ever. Ronaldo making a run is using his vision to read the game, timing to create the opportunity and skills to control the pass. Why is the passer automatically doing more? It's bullshit. Without creative and skillful off the ball movement there would be no pass to begin with. In the analysis of a game Ronaldo's movement, placement and timing isn't valued or statistically tracked. Even though this is a shared proposition. This is just one example of how judging a player is skewed towards Messi and the list goes on.

Have you seen Ronaldo operate in a crowded midfield? There is a plethora of examples where he drops back, plays short concise passes, links up, penetrates with his dribbling, makes outlet passes to the wing, side-steps defenders, etc. There is no skill or ability he lacks to operate in deeper areas. He looks just as natural or accomplished as any true midfielder when he moves to the center. He has dominated the wings his entire career. These attributes which makes him successful do not diminish in the middle of the field.

But what you do is overvalue Messi's contributions in a possession based team compared to Ronaldo's contributions in a direct/counter-attacking team. I don't believe Messi has the speed, stamina or strength to run or move off the ball like Ronaldo chasing down balls and sprinting down the flanks an entire game.

Don't get me wrong, Ronaldo's off the ball movement is an exetremely valuable asset to any team and he is/was really exceptional at that. And I agree that it is a criminally underrsted attribute in a footballer. But honestly, Messi is extremely good in this department as well (look at his timing in arriving late in the box or just outside of it for his trademark finishes or how he manages to always find spaces despite being double or triple marked) and IF Cristiano really is better than him in this regard, there's no way that this makes up the gap in impact Messi created through is overall superior technique, dribbling, passing and finishing.

And let's be clear, while Ronaldo definitely has a great allround game for a striker/left forward, he's nowhere near midfield creates such as Modric or Iniesta when it comes to link up play, concise passing, etc. while Messi outshines them all in terms of line breaking passes, avoiding pressure, vision, switches of play, through balls, etc. You have a point that Ronaldo is underrated in many things but no way that takes him even in the proximity of Messi when it comes to contribution outside of goals.

 

[jm99]

Cristiano developed into a selfish ass very early on. That is the reason why people don't see him as anything other than goal stat merchant. While it is not entirely true, as he has after all a huge number of assists. But he like Salah or Mbappe(two players with huge number of assists, but otherwise seen as selfish pricks), tends to have I go first attitude when it comes to goal, which has clouded this judgement of him being nothing apart from goals. He was ofcourse a contributor, but when compared to Messi it is just well behind.

I think that attitude is part of what drove him to be so great. His game changed somewhat at the start at real and definitely after his knee injury but until he left Madrid he was far more than a poacher, in fact playing as a number 9 didn't seem to suit him at all, he had all the wrong instincts for it after a decade of coming off the left wing, his off the ball movement, aerial threat and finishing meant he still got a lot of goals, but it definitely wasn't something that he was really suited to

 

[Revan]

See this is the point, most people miss. Assists doesn't equate to a player being a top notch playmaker.

See the bull shit thesis of Cristiano being an Ingazhi asides, Cristiano was/ still is(I think he just requires a good environment to flourish, and him to keep his ego aside) a top class player. He was capable of performing many things in the field of football. But the thing is, Cristiano had to sacrifice some of the aspects of his game to achieve the level of productivity that Messi had. Messi never had to change his game to achieve that productivity. And their is nothing wrong in that, not everyone is blessed with the talent Messi has.

Both are phenomenal players, and it gets annoying with each side trying to pull down the other with almost non-sensical arguments.

Indeed. By the time Ronaldo became the machine scoring 60 goals per season, his playmaking skills have been massively reduced. He was still ok at it (as his number of assists show), but he was not elite anymore.

If Ronaldo of 2006-2007 (in playmaking and dribbling) could have scored 60 goals or so per season (that he did at Madrid), then we would have had a player as good, albeit very different, as Messi.

 

[RacingClub]

I think that attitude is part of what drove him to be so great.

Yup , it's impossible to separate the player from the attitude.

I think it's the same for someone like Suarez , you take out the cnut streak and think you have a bang average player.

 

[Camara]

As usual, people go crazy with claims and lose any imparciality. This happened in 2016 and it's happening now in 2022.

Would Messi suck if Montiel and others had failed their penalties? No. And is he 1000x better by winning instead of losing in the penalties? Also no.
Like I said before what Ronaldo and Messi did is already set, some games at the end of their careers will only barely move the greatness barometer.
Prefering one or the other is in my opinion a matter of taste, they're equally as good.

Messi had many Copas and World Cups and in the last 2 years he finally won these competitions. What if he didn't win, and lost both finals on penalties, would he be crap? Of course not, he did his job, in a team sport there are several factors outside the control. Great players can influence their teams to greatness but they can't do everything.
Pick Messi or Ronaldo and put him in the San Marino team, would they be failures because they would never qualify for the major competitions? Of course not, it's absurd.

At the moment people are trashing Ronaldo, he was always the most attacked (=/= criticised) of the two, probably because of his personality.
And that's why I will defend him now.

Portugal have never won a World Cup, ever. In 2002 got only its 3rd (!) world cup appearance. Since 2002 Portugal have always qualified for the final stages of the major competitions but we still, today, lack the big nation mentality that others, such as Argentina have. And this shows.
Ronaldo had good national teams in 2004, 2006 and in 2018, 2021 and 2022. In between, at his peak, he had truly mediocre players in the national team, either in attacking partners, defense or midfield.
Messi generally had better national team companions through all his career, 2022 is actually a change of situation between Portugal and Argentina's squads.

If Ronaldo was in Messi's position right now, I bet many of the ones hyping Messi would be attacking him non-stop, saying things like this:
- Ronaldo is Penaldo, 5 of his 7 goals are penalties. He got 6 penalties in 7 games to score? FIFA and the media's hype is all he got.
- Scored in the final? A penalty and a tap-in, of course, others laying his work for him.
Is it not true? Yes it is, people would say these things, as they did before.

Just like it was known before, before 2022 Messi or Ronaldo had never scored int he knockout stages of the World Cup. Messi scored this year and Ronaldo didn't, in fact he wasn't even a starter in those 2 games Portugal did. And this changed everything? What were they doing in the world cups before?

Now, people have attacked Ronaldo and Portugal for Euro 2016, saying he had an easy job and he was a fraud.
Let's compare to this WC:

Euro 2016
Iceland, Austria, Hungary, Croatia, Poland, Wales, France

World Cup 2022
Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Poland, Australia, Netherlands, Croatia, France

Look how similar their paths were, and yet you see almost no one saying Messi had it easy.
And both Ronaldo and Messi were the silver boot of each tournament as well, another coincidence (Messi scored and participated in more goals - but he also had penalties and Ronaldo didn't! And Portugal was way more defensive than Argentina was, which has an obvious impact).

Another exceptional thing about this World Cup is that, for the first time, Messi scored against a major team in an official game (by major team I consider Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Portugal, Germany, Spain, France, Italy, England, Netherlands), with the exception of Uruguay in the World Cup Qualifiers which he did (but never in final stages of Copa or WC).
Yes, Messi has never scored (or assisted) against Brazil in a official game, which is appaling considering his quality. Again, it's not his fault, the team also has to work for it, he does his part. But against Ronaldo people would never give him any benefit of the doubt.

If you consider this and then look at the World Cup teams they faced in the knockouts, you will also notice something.
Ronaldo had faced major teams in the knockouts always except this year, which Portugal didn't (again, he didn't even start the games this year).
Don't believe me? Let's check.

Ronaldo
WC 2006: Netherlands, England, France, Germany
WC 2010: Spain
WC 2014: didn't qualify
WC 2018: Uruguay
WC 2022: Switzerland, Morocco

Messi:
WC 2006: Mexico (didn't play vs the Netherlands in the next round)
WC 2010: Mexico, Germany
WC 2014: Switzerland, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany
WC 2018: France
WC 2022: Australia, Netherlands, Croatia, France

Again, before 2022 the only major game Messi won (but he didn't score or assist) was against the Netherlands in 2014.
Ronaldo did in 2006 but of course that portuguese team was good on his own right (also let's take notice he was injured in the Battle of Nuremberg and had to leave, and that surely had an impact in the following games).
Messi did score this year against these teams, again an outlier (was he really awful before? Of course not) - and 2 penalties and 1 tap-in some would say if the players were reversed.

And let's also talk about the elephant in the room: Copa America.
I will say it again, because I think it's obvious: Copa America is much easier for Argentina to win than the Euro is for Portugal.
Yes, I said it, and I stand by it.
Argentina is a perennial favourite to win it with Brazil (Uruguay depending on the decade may also be one of the contenders).

Not only did Messi play one more ediiton than Ronaldo (6 Copas vs 5 Euros), he also played more games and more minutes.
And like I said the Copa is easier to win for Argentina. Let's compare who they faced:

	Group Stage	Knock-outs
Euro 2004	Greece, Russia, Spain	England, Netherlands, Greece
Euro 2008	Turkey, Czech Republic, «Switzerland»	Germany
Euro 2012	Germany, Denmark, Netherlands	Czech Republic, Spain
Euro 2016	Iceland, Austria, Hungary	Poland, Croatia, Wales, France
Euro 2020	Hungary, Germany, France	Belgium

	Group Stage	Knock-outs
Copa 2007	United States, Colombia, Paraguay	Peru, Mexico, Brazil
Copa 2011	Bolivia, Colombia, Costa Rica	Uruguay
Copa 2015	Paraguay, Uruguay, Jamaica	Colombia, Paraguay, Chile
Copa 2016	«Chile», Panama, Bolivia	Venezuela, United States, Chile
Copa 2019	Colombia, Paraguay, Qatar	Venezuela, Brazil, [Chile]
Copa 2021	Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay, Bolivia	Ecuador, Colombia, Brazil

I think it's pretty clear the difference of the quality of the teams is staggering, I know some people will disagree just because.
And their goal involvement in these competitions is pretty similar as well, which given the difference in quality is unexpected (0.84 g+a per game for Ronaldo and 0.88 for Messi).
And, of course, Messi never scored against Brazil (neither assisted) or Uruguay (2 assists) in the Copa.

So against major teams in major competitions let's recall:

Ronaldo: 9 goals + 2 assists in 20 games (0.55 per game)
Messi: 3 goals + 3 assists in 12 games (0.5 per game)

So they're pretty much the same, the difference is that Ronaldo faces these teams much more often (in Euro and World Cup).

Prefering one or another is in my opinion perfectly fair, they have their own strengths and each one must decide what's more important.
But for me, let's be clear, thinking a competition decided by penalties is what makes or breaks is not very just (especially with their long and outstanding careers).

 

[Vialli_92]

In 2012 he was a key part of mourinho's incredible counter attacking side, a lot of those assists probably came during these rapid counter attacks. I'm not saying he was threading perfect through balls like Messi, but his positioning on the break, his off the ball running created chances in the same way. One is more pleasing on the eye and probably takes more skill, but it shouldn't detract from the value of what Ronaldo did. He was a threat from range, a threat in the air, his passing wasn't spectacular but it did the job. Messi's strongest attributes, passing and dribbling are some of the more traditionally valued, sure, but Ronaldo's knockout and cl record (which only started after his first 30 games) were key for Madrid winning so many of those CLs the last decade, I think writing him off as a glorified poacher is bizarre.

Definitely he was a very dangerous attacking threat.

My memory of watching him when he started to win multiple balon d'Or is he transitioned into more of a poacher with a lot of his influences and touches coming in and around the box while not being so active in the midfield.

I could never accept him being as good or better than Messi as people claimed him to be as he just simply wasn't playing to the same level Messi was. Incredible stats he has and if judging him by stats he's the second best ever or best ever but he's definitely not as good as other players of the game when it comes to skill and overall influence on a game.

He definitely drifted out of a lot of games even while having a goal or assist throughout his career.

 

[jm99]

Definitely he was a very dangerous attacking threat.

My memory of watching him when he started to win multiple balon d'Or is he transitioned into more of a poacher with a lot of his influences and touches coming in and around the box while not being so active in the midfield.

I could never accept him being as good or better than Messi as people claimed him to be as he just simply wasn't playing to the same level Messi was. Incredible stats he has and if judging him by stats he's the second best ever or best ever but he's definitely not as good as other players of the game when it comes to skill and overall influence on a game.

He definitely drifted out of a lot of games even while having a goal or assist throughout his career.

Yeah I mean I dont have any issue with people having messi ahead of him or calling others more skilful, though I definitely have them as 1 and 2 in history just for consistency and longevity at that level. I have him ahead because of his performances in the CL which I regard as the highest level, but certainly after what Messi has achieved this world cup I'd have no issue with people putting him ahead, it's just the rewriting history to have Ronaldo as some kind of poacher his whole career that I take issue with

 

[Vialli_92]

Yeah I mean I dont have any issue with people having messi ahead of him or calling others more skilful, though I definitely have them as 1 and 2 in history just for consistency and longevity at that level. I have him ahead because of his performances in the CL which I regard as the highest level, but certainly after what Messi has achieved this world cup I'd have no issue with people putting him ahead, it's just the rewriting history to have Ronaldo as some kind of poacher his whole career that I take issue with

There's 3 versions of Ronaldo.

The version where he was winning the CL with Madrid and balon d'Or he was definitely less exciting and his overall involvement and influence of games was much less.

That version suited Madrid and the results showed, they won everything and 3 CL in a row because they had the complete team and just needed Ronaldo to cause be the final piece and be the one getting on the end of the attacks.

I admire him a lot for his work ethic and dedication but I personally will never accept him being on the same level as Messi as a player as I think it's obvious Messi is a far better player.

 

[the_cliff]

As usual, people go crazy with claims and lose any imparciality. This happened in 2016 and it's happening now in 2022.

Would Messi suck if Montiel and others had failed their penalties? No. And is he 1000x better by winning instead of losing in the penalties? Also no.
Like I said before what Ronaldo and Messi did is already set, some games at the end of their careers will only barely move the greatness barometer.
Prefering one or the other is in my opinion a matter of taste, they're equally as good.

Messi had many Copas and World Cups and in the last 2 years he finally won these competitions. What if he didn't win, and lost both finals on penalties, would he be crap? Of course not, he did his job, in a team sport there are several factors outside the control. Great players can influence their teams to greatness but they can't do everything.
Pick Messi or Ronaldo and put him in the San Marino team, would they be failures because they would never qualify for the major competitions? Of course not, it's absurd.

At the moment people are trashing Ronaldo, he was always the most attacked (=/= criticised) of the two, probably because of his personality.
And that's why I will defend him now.

Portugal have never won a World Cup, ever. In 2002 got only its 3rd (!) world cup appearance. Since 2002 Portugal have always qualified for the final stages of the major competitions but we still, today, lack the big nation mentality that others, such as Argentina have. And this shows.
Ronaldo had good national teams in 2004, 2006 and in 2018, 2021 and 2022. In between, at his peak, he had truly mediocre players in the national team, either in attacking partners, defense or midfield.
Messi generally had better national team companions through all his career, 2022 is actually a change of situation between Portugal and Argentina's squads.

If Ronaldo was in Messi's position right now, I bet many of the ones hyping Messi would be attacking him non-stop, saying things like this:
- Ronaldo is Penaldo, 5 of his 7 goals are penalties. He got 6 penalties in 7 games to score? FIFA and the media's hype is all he got.
- Scored in the final? A penalty and a tap-in, of course, others laying his work for him.
Is it not true? Yes it is, people would say these things, as they did before.

Just like it was known before, before 2022 Messi or Ronaldo had never scored int he knockout stages of the World Cup. Messi scored this year and Ronaldo didn't, in fact he wasn't even a starter in those 2 games Portugal did. And this changed everything? What were they doing in the world cups before?

Now, people have attacked Ronaldo and Portugal for Euro 2016, saying he had an easy job and he was a fraud.
Let's compare to this WC:

Euro 2016
Iceland, Austria, Hungary, Croatia, Poland, Wales, France

World Cup 2022
Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Poland, Australia, Netherlands, Croatia, France

Look how similar their paths were, and yet you see almost no one saying Messi had it easy.
And both Ronaldo and Messi were the silver boot of each tournament as well, another coincidence (Messi scored and participated in more goals - but he also had penalties and Ronaldo didn't! And Portugal was way more defensive than Argentina was, which has an obvious impact).

Another exceptional thing about this World Cup is that, for the first time, Messi scored against a major team in an official game (by major team I consider Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Portugal, Germany, Spain, France, Italy, England, Netherlands), with the exception of Uruguay in the World Cup Qualifiers which he did (but never in final stages of Copa or WC).
Yes, Messi has never scored (or assisted) against Brazil in a official game, which is appaling considering his quality. Again, it's not his fault, the team also has to work for it, he does his part. But against Ronaldo people would never give him any benefit of the doubt.

If you consider this and then look at the World Cup teams they faced in the knockouts, you will also notice something.
Ronaldo had faced major teams in the knockouts always except this year, which Portugal didn't (again, he didn't even start the games this year).
Don't believe me? Let's check.

Ronaldo
WC 2006: Netherlands, England, France, Germany
WC 2010: Spain
WC 2014: didn't qualify
WC 2018: Uruguay
WC 2022: Switzerland, Morocco

Messi:
WC 2006: Mexico (didn't play vs the Netherlands in the next round)
WC 2010: Mexico, Germany
WC 2014: Switzerland, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany
WC 2018: France
WC 2022: Australia, Netherlands, Croatia, France

Again, before 2022 the only major game Messi won (but he didn't score or assist) was against the Netherlands in 2014.
Ronaldo did in 2006 but of course that portuguese team was good on his own right (also let's take notice he was injured in the Battle of Nuremberg and had to leave, and that surely had an impact in the following games).
Messi did score this year against these teams, again an outlier (was he really awful before? Of course not) - and 2 penalties and 1 tap-in some would say if the players were reversed.

And let's also talk about the elephant in the room: Copa America.
I will say it again, because I think it's obvious: Copa America is much easier for Argentina to win than the Euro is for Portugal.
Yes, I said it, and I stand by it.
Argentina is a perennial favourite to win it with Brazil (Uruguay depending on the decade may also be one of the contenders).

Not only did Messi play one more ediiton than Ronaldo (6 Copas vs 5 Euros), he also played more games and more minutes.
And like I said the Copa is easier to win for Argentina. Let's compare who they faced:

	Group Stage	Knock-outs
Euro 2004	Greece, Russia, Spain	England, Netherlands, Greece
Euro 2008	Turkey, Czech Republic, «Switzerland»	Germany
Euro 2012	Germany, Denmark, Netherlands	Czech Republic, Spain
Euro 2016	Iceland, Austria, Hungary	Poland, Croatia, Wales, France
Euro 2020	Hungary, Germany, France	Belgium

	Group Stage	Knock-outs
Copa 2007	United States, Colombia, Paraguay	Peru, Mexico, Brazil
Copa 2011	Bolivia, Colombia, Costa Rica	Uruguay
Copa 2015	Paraguay, Uruguay, Jamaica	Colombia, Paraguay, Chile
Copa 2016	«Chile», Panama, Bolivia	Venezuela, United States, Chile
Copa 2019	Colombia, Paraguay, Qatar	Venezuela, Brazil, [Chile]
Copa 2021	Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay, Bolivia	Ecuador, Colombia, Brazil

I think it's pretty clear the difference of the quality of the teams is staggering, I know some people will disagree just because.
And their goal involvement in these competitions is pretty similar as well, which given the difference in quality is unexpected (0.84 g+a per game for Ronaldo and 0.88 for Messi).
And, of course, Messi never scored against Brazil (neither assisted) or Uruguay (2 assists) in the Copa.

So against major teams in major competitions let's recall:

Ronaldo: 9 goals + 2 assists in 20 games (0.55 per game)
Messi: 3 goals + 3 assists in 12 games (0.5 per game)

So they're pretty much the same, the difference is that Ronaldo faces these teams much more often (in Euro and World Cup).

Prefering one or another is in my opinion perfectly fair, they have their own strengths and each one must decide what's more important.
But for me, let's be clear, thinking a competition decided by penalties is what makes or breaks is not very just (especially with their long and outstanding careers).

I don't think anyone's going crazy in terms of partiality. No body is saying Ronaldo is a shit player or whatever, he's definitely the 2nd best/best player of his era depending on your choice.

Here's the problem with your argument though. Many have tried to compare the Euro's and Copa and as you said it may have been easier for Messi to win that. Or it's not on the level of the Euro's, you can say that. The problem is there is an international tournament that both HAVE played in.

So if you compare World Cup performances, this world cup performance by Messi has blown Ronaldo's out of the water, hence why people are quite rightly saying Messi has had a better international career. Saying Messi hadn't done it in big games against big teams before this world cup is a mute point because he just did it, you can't pretend the last 3 weeks didn't happen and move on.

Unless you're saying Ronaldo's Euro's is more impressive than Messi's World Cup...

Here's another problem with your argument. If you take the big teams as you mentioned and compare goals scored in Knockout stages of both the Euros/Copa and the world cup then you're left with:

Ronaldo: 1 Goal in 11 games.
Messi: 3 Goals in 9 games.

Of course it's also quite beneficial for your point that you consider Uruguay a 'big team' and not Croatia for example.

 

[giorno]

Nah, he is the most famous but Sugar Ray Robinson is pretty much as a consensus choice for the greatest boxer ever as it can be.

Yeah but he's not The Greatest

Also Messi has the most liked post in instagram history now. Take that!

 

[Revan]

Yeah but he's not The Greatest

'The Greatest' disagrees:

“To me, in his time, and even today, the pound for pound, when they say ‘Sugar’ Ray Robinson was the greatest fighter pound for pound, meaning that if I’d imagine he was a heavyweight fighting the same style, he’d be the greatest.

“I would have to admit, I would have to say yes, Robinson is the greatest of all time.

“I have his fight films, I watched them then, you have them."

Source: https://www.givemesport.com/88053523-muhammad-ali-sugar-ray-robinson-boxing-goat

 

[Camara]

I don't think anyone's going crazy in terms of partiality. No body is saying Ronaldo is a shit player or whatever, he's definitely the 2nd best/best player of his era depending on your choice.

Here's the problem with your argument though. Many have tried to compare the Euro's and Copa and as you said it may have been easier for Messi to win that. Or it's not on the level of the Euro's, you can say that. The problem is there is an international tournament that both HAVE played in.

So if you compare World Cup performances, this world cup performance by Messi has blown Ronaldo's out of the water, hence why people are quite rightly saying Messi has had a better international career. Saying Messi hadn't done it in big games against big teams before this world cup is a mute point because he just did it, you can't pretend the last 3 weeks didn't happen and move on.

Unless you're saying Ronaldo's Euro's is more impressive than Messi's World Cup...

People are actually saying Ronaldo is absolute crap and not even top 10 or whatever, I mean in this forum
Some people said the same about Messi after the Copa's defeats but when Ronaldo fails there are 10x as many people considering him super bad every time it happens to him.

On the World Cup performances I'm not ignoring the last weeks, I was showing how Ronaldo has faced stronger teams in the knockouts in general and that their expectations (Portugal vs Argentina) are different both in Euro/Copa and the WC.
This also ties with what I said about how teams play, Portugal plays as a small nation, attacking little, while Argentina has a big nation attitude. This impacts the offensive outcome of the teams.
People have wildly changed their opinion now, at the end of their careers, because of a World Cup that was won on penalties with Messi scoring 5 of 7 penalty goals?
Ronaldo has been carrying Portugal through the years as well, in the last World Cup for example he literally saved Portugal from losing with with an hattrick vs Spain (Portugal did nothing the whole game) and a goal vs Morocco in a 2-1 game. He got 4 goals in 4 games. Is he supposed to do even more or does he have to defend the penalties as well? Or should he have scored against Uruguay, something Messi has failed to do in major competitions as well?
What I mean is that for one people use a ruler and for the ruler they use a completely different one.
Ronaldo is mocked for doing nothing in the 2016 final (he left early injured) but some (many?) people are outraged that the same is said about Messi in the 2021 final that he played the whole game - and saying they didn't deserve it is wrong as they were great for their teams in the competition, Messi simply gets the praise and Ronaldo gets the hate...

On Ronaldo's Euro, they've faced basically the same teams, and people were quick and loud to say it was a piece of cake walk and he didn't deserve it (despite being involved in 6 of 9 portuguese goals)...

 

[Moby]

GOAT debate asides, I am thinking but it cannot be a co-incidence that Messi strated winning in International level after he left Barcelona

So what exactly do you think happened?

 

[lex talionis]

For me it's been Messi > Ronaldo for quite some time, but to amplify the point others have made here, would we really see it any other way if France had beaten Argentina?

Not that it's relevant to the Messi v Ronaldo debate, but it should not go unremarked that going into the WC France were without Benzema, Pogba and Kante. And going into the WC final even the lovechild of Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder could see that key France players were adversely affected by the virus...and yet Argentina played as great as they could possibly play and France played by miles and miles their worst game of the tournament (I'm not counting the meaningless group stage game), and yet France almost beat Messi and his teammates in added time. A sitter was right there for the win with the lack kick of the match before pk's.

 

[the_cliff]

People are actually saying Ronaldo is absolute crap and not even top 10 or whatever, I mean in this forum
Some people said the same about Messi after the Copa's defeats but when Ronaldo fails there are 10x as many people considering him super bad every time it happens to him.

On the World Cup performances I'm not ignoring the last weeks, I was showing how Ronaldo has faced stronger teams in the knockouts in general and that their expectations (Portugal vs Argentina) are different both in Euro/Copa and the WC.
This also ties with what I said about how teams play, Portugal plays as a small nation, attacking little, while Argentina has a big nation attitude. This impacts the offensive outcome of the teams.
People have wildly changed their opinion now, at the end of their careers, because of a World Cup that was won on penalties with Messi scoring 5 of 7 penalty goals?
Ronaldo has been carrying Portugal through the years as well, in the last World Cup for example he literally saved Portugal from losing with with an hattrick vs Spain (Portugal did nothing the whole game) and a goal vs Morocco in a 2-1 game. He got 4 goals in 4 games. Is he supposed to do even more or does he have to defend the penalties as well? Or should he have scored against Uruguay, something Messi has failed to do in major competitions as well?
What I mean is that for one people use a ruler and for the ruler they use a completely different one.
Ronaldo is mocked for doing nothing in the 2016 final (he left early injured) but some (many?) people are outraged that the same is said about Messi in the 2021 final that he played the whole game - and saying they didn't deserve it is wrong as they were great for their teams in the competition, Messi simply gets the praise and Ronaldo gets the hate...

On Ronaldo's Euro, they've faced basically the same teams, and people were quick and loud to say it was a piece of cake walk and he didn't deserve it (despite being involved in 6 of 9 portuguese goals)...

Messi did that as well in wc 2014 (If not for Messi in 14 Argentina wouldn't have got out of the groups either) and until this tournament was widely criticised for not performing in the Knockout Stages, until this world cup both were actually criticised and mocked for not doing it when it mattered in the world cup. The difference is Messi stepped up this World cup and did it in the knockout stages, something Ronaldo hasn't done and something he'll keep getting criticised for in the GOAT debate. It's only normal, I think your reaction is a bit over the top. It was also 4 of 7 penalties (He missed one). Argentina scored 15 goals this World Cup, Messi was directly involved in 10 of them....

 

[r1z3mu]

Maybe it will help some people who use stats instead of eyes.

Messi <-----------> Ronaldo
1,003 – Games – 1,145
82,325 – Career mins – 92,851
793 – Goals – 819
350 – Assists – 234
56 – Hat-tricks – 60
60 – Free-kicks – 58
664 – Left foot – 151
99 – Right foot – 525
26 – Headers – 141
108/139 (77.7%) – Penalties converted – 146/175 (83.4%)
7 – Ballon d’Or wins – 5
6 – European Golden Shoe wins – 4
0.79 – Goals per game – 0.72
103.8 – Minutes per goal – 113.4
72.0 – Minutes per goal or assist – 88.2
42 – Trophies – 34
11 – League titles – 7
4 – Champions League – 5
23.8 – Games per trophy – 33.7
172 – International caps – 196
98 – International goals – 118
2 – International trophies – 2

 

[Revan]

Maybe it will help some people who use stats instead of eyes.

Messi <-----------> Ronaldo
1,003 – Games – 1,145
82,325 – Career mins – 92,851
793 – Goals – 819
350 – Assists – 234
56 – Hat-tricks – 60
60 – Free-kicks – 58
664 – Left foot – 151
99 – Right foot – 525
26 – Headers – 141
108/139 (77.7%) – Penalties converted – 146/175 (83.4%)
7 – Ballon d’Or wins – 5
6 – European Golden Shoe wins – 4
0.79 – Goals per game – 0.72
103.8 – Minutes per goal – 113.4
72.0 – Minutes per goal or assist – 88.2
42 – Trophies – 34
11 – League titles – 7
4 – Champions League – 5
23.8 – Games per trophy – 33.7
172 – International caps – 196
98 – International goals – 118
2 – International trophies – 2

It shows what we can guess by using our eyes, that Messi is better.

The only thing that needs to be added is the quality of the trophies. A World Cup is not equal to Nations League.

I think it would be interesting to see how do they compare with each other since Ronaldo joined Madrid (2009-2010), when both him and Messi started playing in a more advanced role. I bet that they are similar in goals, but quite more assists for Messi.

Edit: Clubs and goals only (based on wiki):

Ronaldo: 578 goals in 626 games, so 0.923 goals per match.
Messi: 615 goals in 670 games, so 0.918 goals per match.

As even as it can get when it comes to goalscoring.

Edit 2: (only while they both played in La Liga for better comparison):

Ronaldo: 450 goals in 438 matches, so 1.027 goals per match
Messi: 472 goals in 476 matches, so 0.992 goals per match.

Quite even, tiny advantage for Ronaldo.

 

[Andrade]

I wouldn't agree with Maradona having a better peak than Pelé, either, unless we are talking about single tournament performance over a month.
Pelé arguably had a higher (or at least equal) one or three-year peak than Maradona from '59-'61 and might compare to Messi in that regard.

I agree entirely, which is why I asked the question. However, it is all academic. As Henry Winter said, the three greatest players of all time are Pele, Maradona and Messi. The only thing up for debate is the order.

 

[JJ12]

It always amazes me to see how many people actually take the time to watch loads of old games with the likes of Puskas, Pele or Maradona involved, just to be able to judge these things.

It’s why I say ‘top 5’ players I’ve seen. I can’t judge Pele, Maradona, Best, Cruyff etc.

 

[Daydreamer]

2 – International trophies – 2

I feel this bit require a little more context…

 

[Vialli_92]

I agree entirely, which is why I asked the question. However, it is all academic. As Henry Winter said, the three greatest players of all time are Pele, Maradona and Messi. The only thing up for debate is the order.

Definitely agree with this. Messi winning the world cup has separated himself from the GOAT debate with Ronaldo now. Not that he ever needed in my opinion as I have known since 2011 I was watching greatness and a truly special player and talent I may never get to see anyone reach in my lifetime.

However for the Ronaldo fans and casual fans who just don't appreciate Messi's greatness and talent and for the haters that said since 2011, 2012 that Messi NEEDS to win a world cup he needed this to cement his legacy in the eyes of the whole world to appreciate his greatness.

However it's a shame that people think great players need to win a world cup now to he considered the GOAT as international football is not on the same level as club football and players like Haaland have no chance to win a world cup with their country so they can't be considered a GOAT according to so many people's views on the game.

Messi winning the world cup and dragging himself into the top 3 GOAT debate was deserved but had France won on penalties people would have diminished him and tried to take away his greatness based off a penalty shootout loss.

It shouldn't be the way it is but a lot of football fans and ex players/pundits used this as a stick to beat Messi with which is just not really fair.