Lionel Messi is OFFICIALLY the Greatest Player of all Time (CONFIRMED OFFICIAL)

[Revan]

they had a good side in the last Euros and the last world cup too. And they won in 2016.

Argentina haven't always had the best side either. They've been top-heavy. Never quite with the same strength in depth as the top top sides like Brazil, Spain and France. A bit like Portugal.

They were always one of the favorites and strikers are usually the most valuable players. They had decent teams in all World Cups though, and man for man, they were always (except on this one) better than Portugal.

Let’s be fair, playing with Aguero, Tevez, Di Maria and co is better than with Postiga, Nuno Gomez, Simao or Dani (Nani even missed 2010). When Ronaldo had in team Figo and Deco in midfield, Messi was playing second fiddle to Riquelme. And later, he has Cambiasso, Veron, Banega and Di Maria there. In defense, they were pretty even.

I think if you check squad monetary values, Argentina was always higher (except in this World Cup), maybe twice as high.

 

[Tarrou]

They were always one of the favorites and strikers are usually the most valuable players. They had decent teams in all World Cups though, and man for man, they were always (except on this one) better than Portugal.

Let’s be fair, playing with Aguero, Tevez, Di Maria and co is better than with Postiga, Nuno Gomez, Simao or Dani (Nani even missed 2010). When Ronaldo had in team Figo and Deco in midfield, Messi was playing second fiddle to Riquelme. And later, he has Cambiasso, Veron, Banega and Di Maria there. In defense, they were pretty even.

I think if you check squad monetary values, Argentina was always higher (except in this World Cup), maybe twice as high.

fair enough

you've convinced me to some extent, but I don't think there is a massive gap or anything.. I don't ever remember being that impressed with Argentina with Messi in the team, nor Portugal with Ronaldo for that matter

Portugal were being made out to be Wales or something in this thread though

 

[SportingCP96]

And now he's going to say you're not making any sense by ranking that Ronaldo that low.

I agree too. He's in that 4-10 range.

. Considering he’s ranked top and top 2 by a majority of the world and poles and ranking in the world I don’t need to make that point valid. The world already has him stamped there. The haters of this forum can try to argue all they want though, it’s cute.

His point about the squads is a fact and I agree with it.

 

[Idxomer]

They were always one of the favorites and strikers are usually the most valuable players. They had decent teams in all World Cups though, and man for man, they were always (except on this one) better than Portugal.

Let’s be fair, playing with Aguero, Tevez, Di Maria and co is better than with Postiga, Nuno Gomez, Simao or Dani (Nani even missed 2010). When Ronaldo had in team Figo and Deco in midfield, Messi was playing second fiddle to Riquelme. And later, he has Cambiasso, Veron, Banega and Di Maria there. In defense, they were pretty even.

I think if you check squad monetary values, Argentina was always higher (except in this World Cup), maybe twice as high.

They weren't better at the last world cup either. This is the team that started against France in 2018.

Armani

Tagliafico Rojo Otamendi Mercado

Banega Mascherano Perez

Di Maria Messi Pavon​

 

[Revan]

. Considering he’s ranked top and top 2 by a majority of the world and poles and ranking in the world I don’t need to make that point valid. The world already has him stamped there. The haters of this forum can try to argue all they want though, it’s cute.

His point about the squads is a fact and I agree with it.

I do not think he is rated by most in top 2. Messi, Pele, and Maradona are generally rated higher, something I agree with (albeit I tend to differ between the meaning of greater and better).

 

[FrankFoot]

the same world where Figo, Carvalho, Silva, Bruno & Pepe play

I love Messi, but Messi at his peak had better teammates in Argentina than what Ronaldo at his peak with Portugal.

Portugal has better players than Argentina now, but Ronaldo is 37...it doesn't matter.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

. Considering he’s ranked top and top 2 by a majority of the world and poles and ranking in the world I don’t need to make that point valid. The world already has him stamped there. The haters of this forum can try to argue all they want though, it’s cute.

His point about the squads is a fact and I agree with it.

You have no idea where he's rated by the majority of the world.

I imagine most football journalists wouldn't put him top 3.

The world doesn't have him stamped there. You don't know what millions of people think.

Saying he's not top 3 isn't hating on him either.

 

[Bosnian_fan]

The facts remain that Luka Modrić has led Croatia to two straight World Cup podiums, while Ronaldo has failed to do so. I'm sure Luka has also had better squads over the years.

As a matter of fact, when both Ronaldo and Luka started playing in World Cups, the nations were tied, both Croatia and Portugal having one third place finish. Now Luka has eclipsed Croatia out of reach for Ronaldo.

I'm not saying that Luka is better player, just that it is ridiculous to suggest that Ronaldo was some sort of amazing success for Portugal.

 

[SportingCP96]

I do not think he is rated by most in top 2. Messi, Pele, and Maradona are generally rated higher, something I agree with (albeit I tend to differ between the meaning of greater and better).

Which is fine. People can find valid arguments to interchange those top 4.I respect that opinion.

They are the Mount Rushmore of the sport and an overwhelming majority of polls and list and rankings in the internet as well as ex players and current agree as well.

Its those 4 and everyone else.

 

[r1z3mu]

Ironically, part of the reason why Garrincha was so successful was because his bow-leggedness made him almost impossible to read. Left-backs couldn't get to grips with it as he was completely unique. His hips went one way and his legs went the other. Even a proper athlete and defender like Nilton Santos (see his fairly impressive quad development below) was simply bamboozled by him.

This is what I call knowledge and understanding of game. Not simply counting goals and other stats.

 

[SportingCP96]

You have no idea where he's rated by the majority of the world.

I imagine most football journalists wouldn't put him top 3.

The world doesn't have him stamped there. You don't know what millions of people think.

Saying he's not top 3 isn't hating on him either.

Do a quick Google search and or look up all town rankings.
those 4 are the SAME 4 95% of the time.

 

[Revan]

They weren't better at the last world cup either. This is the team that started against France in 2018.

Armani

Tagliafico Rojo Otamendi Mercado

Banega Mascherano Perez

Di Maria Messi Pavon​

Portugal’s team vs Uruguay was:

Patricio, Pereira, Guerrero, Pepe, Fonte, Carvajlo, Silva, Silva, Mario, Ronaldo, Guedes.

That’s as shit as you can make. There is nothing there except Patricio, Pepe and Ronaldo. At least Messi had Otamendi, Mascherano, Banega and Di Maria. Heck, even our own Rojo was better than Fontes.

 

[Tarrou]

I love Messi, but Messi at his peak had better teammates in Argentina than what Ronaldo at his peak with Portugal.

Portugal has better players than Argentina now, but Ronaldo is 37...it doesn't matter.

Yeah, this is true. The Portugal team has peaked a bit too late for Ronny.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

The facts remain that Luka Modrić has led Croatia to two straight World Cup podiums, while Ronaldo has failed to do so. I'm sure Luka has also had better squads over the years.

As a matter of fact, when both Ronaldo and Luka started playing in World Cups, the nations were tied, both Croatia and Portugal having one third place finish. Now Luka has eclipsed Croatia out of reach for Ronaldo.

I'm not saying that Luka is better player, just that it is ridiculous to suggest that Ronaldo was some sort of amazing success for Portugal.

He's been a complete flop at the WC for Portugal, but he was good/great in the Euros for them.

 

[Bosnian_fan]

Portugal’s team vs Uruguay was:

Patricio, Pereira, Guerrero, Pepe, Fonte, Carvajlo, Silva, Silva, Mario, Ronaldo, Guedes.

That’s as shit as you can make. There is nothing there except Patricio, Pepe and Ronaldo. At least Messi had Otamendi, Mascherano, Banega and Di Maria. Heck, even our own Rojo was better than Fontes.

Silly me, I thought Bernardo Silva was a good player. Apparently, even he is not good enough for mighty Ronaldo.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Do a quick Google search and or look up all town rankings.
those 4 are the SAME 4 95% of the time.

95% of the time....

My God

You really are relentless. I hope Ronaldo pays you for this PR.

 

[giorno]

They weren't better at the last world cup either. This is the team that started against France in 2018.

Armani

Tagliafico Rojo Otamendi Mercado

Banega Mascherano Perez

Di Maria Messi Pavon​

That's actually a lot better than i remembered. It's actually a good team on paper. Man Sampaoli really was bad for them. Bilardo was right

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

That's actually a lot better than i remembered. It's actually a good team on paper. Man Sampaoli really was bad for them. Bilardo was right

It's a bang average team still to be fair.

Portugal weren't much better though either. They were both average squads in 2018.

 

[Idxomer]

Portugal’s team vs Uruguay was:

Patricio, Pereira, Guerrero, Pepe, Fonte, Carvajlo, Silva, Silva, Mario, Ronaldo, Guedes.

That’s as shit as you can make. There is nothing there except Patricio, Pepe and Ronaldo. At least Messi had Otamendi, Mascherano, Banega and Di Maria. Heck, even our own Rojo was better than Fontes.

Mascherano was finished and Rojo isn't better than Fontes either. You also missed Bernando Silva and the fullbacks who are much better than what Argentina had.

 

[giorno]

Portugal’s team vs Uruguay was:

Patricio, Pereira, Guerrero, Pepe, Fonte, Carvajlo, Silva, Silva, Mario, Ronaldo, Guedes.

That’s as shit as you can make. There is nothing there except Patricio, Pepe and Ronaldo. At least Messi had Otamendi, Mascherano, Banega and Di Maria. Heck, even our own Rojo was better than Fontes.

Nah, that's also actually a good team. Always got the impression it was expected of them to lose to Uruguay, but both watching the game and looking at the players, that was kind of a bad defeat. Portugal were better than Uruguay

 

[giorno]

It's a bang average team still to be fair.

Portugal weren't much better though either. They were both average squads in 2018.

Disagree. It's not a vintage but it's international football. That squad also had Aguero and Higuain iirc. Honestly, it's not much different than the 2022 version man for man

 

[Zlaatan]

Do you think they have to lock the trophy up at night or let the players keep it?

Messis insta status is it on a hotel looking table and you see a pillow in the background, I wonder if Messi is allowed to just take the trophy for the night

They only have the real trophy for the celebrations on the pitch and in the dressing room, after that it's replaced by a bronze replica covered in gold and the real one goes back to wherever it's usually locked up.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Disagree. It's not a vintage but it's international football. That squad also had Aguero and Higuain iirc. Honestly, it's not much different than the 2022 version man for man

Higuain was almost cooked in 2018 and Aguero barely featured in that WC iirc.

I think their 2022 team is miles better even on paper.

Doesn't even take into account they have a much better manager for them and way better cohesion/synergy + a better Messi for the NT.

 

[Pexbo]

And there was me thinking this would be a straightforward thread with everyone agreeing

 

[Idxomer]

Disagree. It's not a vintage but it's international football. That squad also had Aguero and Higuain iirc. Honestly, it's not much different than the 2022 version man for man

Martinez and the midfield are a big difference, the latter especially in addition to Alvarez are much more suited to cover Messi.

 

[Zlaatan]

Oh, and I completely agree that Messi is OFFICIALLY the Greatest Player of all Time now, just like he was a month ago.

 

[r1z3mu]

And there was me thinking this would be a straightforward thread with everyone agreeing

To be a little philosophical - nothing in this world ever agreed unanimously. DaVinci or Michelangelo, Ferrari or Lamborghini, Manchester United or Liverpool (he-he-he oops ) and so on. This is perfectly fine that people have different opinions despite the fact that some are clearly flawed (we know who I'm talking about). So, please keep it civil and respectful.

 

[Suedesi]

No team in La Liga has 1/40th or 1/50th of the budget of Real/Barca, let’s not go ridiculous there.

Also, winning the Serie A with Napoli was an achievement but hardly unprecedented. The year after their second title, the champions were Sampdoria. Two years before their first title, it was Verona who won it. Two years before that, Roma.

A rare event, but definitely not like Leicester winning EPL, which was more or less an unprecedented event.

Why don't yo go on transfermarkt and take some sample data on Madrid's transfers over the last decade versus Rayo, Getafe, Levante, Villareal, Espanyol, Betis and then we can talk.

And winning Serie A with Napoli was unprecedented - no Southern team had ever done it before. Napoli won two scudettos, and did the double which was even rarer back then. Considering the opposition (stacked Milan, stacked Inter, stacked Juve etc), it was a rare feat. Hellas Verona (or Leicester for that matter) is irrelevant - no one is celebrating Elkajer's exploits to the title over Maradona's unless they are some weird smelly hipsters.

 

[giorno]

Higuain was almost cooked in 2018 and Aguero barely featured in that WC iirc.

I think their 2022 team is miles better even on paper.

Doesn't even take into account they have a much better manager for them and way better cohesion/synergy + a better Messi for the NT.

Mmm. Ok. Definitely agree with the latter, which is why i made the point about Sampaoli

Martinez and the midfield are a big difference, the latter especially in addition to Alvarez are much more suited to cover Messi.

Martinez certainly did, otherwise i think it comes down more to coaching than anything. Scaloni did a much better job of building a functional team around Messi, like Sabella. Martino also did good imo, but they lost both finals on penalties

In the end i think the best squads Messi had to worl with were 2007, 2010 and 2011. Too young/too much pressure, Maradona was a disaster, too much pressure.

Look at the 2011 Copa squad...

 

[giorno]

Hellas Verona (or Leicester for that matter) is irrelevant - no one is celebrating Elkajer's exploits to the title over Maradona's unless they are some weird smelly hipsters.

Elkjaer was fecking great btw, it's not like Hellas were shite, much like Leicester. Just good enough in a down year for the big clubs

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Out of respect for the poster who just posted a Hall of Fame candidate post I won't directly quote him so that everyone will see his name, but check put this beauty:

In short, Pele was peers with an alcoholic cripple - Messi is peers with Cristiano Ronaldo, a guy who has dedicated his life to the sport to an obsessive degree. The game has moved on and it undoubtedly takes more talent to compete now than the 60s, otherwise we'd see more deformed alcoholics becoming top scorers in the WC.

Pele played during a time when Cruyff and Beckenbauer, and Charlton, Best, Law and Eusebio actually (all of whom would walk straight into elite club in the world today), were at or nearing their peak. If one were to build an all-time XI one couldn't possibly argue -- "Sorry, we can't have Pele."

All opinions of course and the Pele/Maradona/Messi/Ronaldo debate has been whittled down to Pele and Messi, Ronaldo need not apply. This was true before yesterday's WC final, by the way.

If one were to build the all time XI -- just one man's opinion, but I'm leading to a point -- one would be hard pressed to seriously dispute the following:

Yashin
Alberto/Beckenbauer/Baresi/Maldini
Platini/Makelele/Zidane
Messi/Pele/Cruyff

Some would say Buffon over Yashin, others might say Keane or Matthaus over Makele, but there would be no disputing Messi and Pele on the front line. But for our immediate purposes here note that some of those names come from the 60s and 70s. The modern era, in contrast to what is being suggested here, began with Pele and those incredible Brazil teams between 1958 and 1970. Pele, the so-called "peer of alcoholic cripples" without any question whatsoever would have slotted in quite nicely into any Real Madrid or Barcelona side of the 2010s and dominated La Liga and the Champions League as Messi and Ronaldo did.

This is all just irrelevant nerdling fantasy football.

How can you proclaim that the players of the 60s could easily play at the elite level in the modern game when a deformed alcoholic like Garrincha dominated a world cup at 29-years-old? It's pure conjecture.

Here's is Garrincha's best ever performance, against England, at the WC in 1962. The quality of the football is very poor. It's a different game now.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

The absolute lengths some of you go to, to attempt to discredit everything Ronaldo does is plane sad, Calling it sad is me being as polite as I can be because it’s only on this forum that I see such incredible attempt to discredit A guy who only has one equal.

Ironic given your opening post in this thread instantly tries to discredit what Messi did to help Argentina achieve by spinning the angle that what he’s done isn’t that impressive as “Argentina have won the WC before and will win it again” without him. You also say that Ronaldo would have won the WC with Argentina years ago - hypothetically.

Please avoid trying to play the victim card when you throw arguments into your posts that are based off hypothetical/whataboutery.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

“Not thr best or second Best player for Portugal at Euro 2016”

Stupid shit like that is exactly why even debating with some of you is exhausting. Ya the guy who scored or assisted in every single goal in all of the elimination games for Portugal (from Hungary to wales) “was not the best or second best player”. Cry more mate.

The absolute lengths some of you go to, to attempt to discredit everything Ronaldo does is plane sad, Calling it sad is me being as polite as I can be because it’s only on this forum that I see such incredible attempt to discredit A guy who only has one equal.

In fairness 3 goals and 2 asists is fine but far from a best player of the tourney.

The pressure Messi faced was FAR more than Ronaldo could ever be handed. Ronaldo has VASTLY underperformed in world cups, like shockingly bad but because “Portugal have scrubs” it doesn’t matter supposedly.

Argentina hadn’t Won a trophy in 25 years. It’s far from being easy to win a trophy with Argentina. Portugal will continue to win trophies after Ronaldo leaves. It used to be MUCH harder to even qualify for NT tourneys before Ronaldo joined. A third place team still being allowed to advance to the knockout stage was unheard of.

and at the end of the day, the pressure Messi faced was insanely much more than what Ronaldo faced. That’s why Messi’s World Cup will always be a greater achievement than Portugal’s euro. There was hardly any memorable matches with Portugal. This WC was one for the history books.

 

[Malone_Post]

In fact the best squads Ronaldo has had in his Portugal career was 2018-2020-2022 all in his late thirties. What did he do ?

Not win it.

Unlike Messi.

 

[Tyrion]

Officially?

Yeah I'm not sure what metrics are used. You can never be sure. Would Pele or Maradona have done better or worse? Who can say for certain? Imo, no-one. That's why people debate it so much; because they know they can't be proven wrong.

 

[Righteous Steps]

And there was me thinking this would be a straightforward thread with everyone agreeing

Everyone is except one poster.

 

[Righteous Steps]

No team in La Liga has 1/40th or 1/50th of the budget of Real/Barca, let’s not go ridiculous there.

Also, winning the Serie A with Napoli was an achievement but hardly unprecedented. The year after their second title, the champions were Sampdoria. Two years before their first title, it was Verona who won it. Two years before that, Roma.

A rare event, but definitely not like Leicester winning EPL, which was more or less an unprecedented event.

I’ve said this already but Sampdoria were a very good team of that time who even made the CL final in 92, stop looking at them from a modern lens and look at them for what they were at the time.

There are great English teams of the 80’s and early 90’s like Nottingham Forest, Leeds, Aston Villa who are lower league PL sides now.

 

[Cassanata99]

Everyone is except one poster.

Not everyone. It's not an objective title, despite what everyone in here wants to believe. Being labelled the GOAT is a matter of opinion. That's why the debate rages on and will continue to rage on.

 

[TheNewEra]

I’ve said this already but Sampdoria were a very good team of that time who even made the CL final in 92, stop looking at them from a modern lens and look at them for what they were at the time.

There are great English teams of the 80’s and early 90’s like Nottingham Forest, Leeds, Aston Villa who are lower league PL sides now.

Villa have a WC winning GK though!

 

[alexthelion]

The debate is over. This will be a very short and cordial thread with everyone just agreeing.

Form an orderly queue, one post per person. Thank you and goodnight.

Says who?

Maybe third behind Pele and Maradonna.