yes but to a varying degree. Messi is more affected than Ronaldo. Besides I don’t even get anyone who deny that Messi is vastly dependant on the system and the dominance of his team. If he was playing for City, he would probably be on 15 goals now and everyone will be telling us about how the premier league is nothing for him. Now he is struggling to register more goals than 1 in Ligue 1.
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
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We don't really know. It's undeniable that his PSG debut season so far has been underwhelming, but he's also clearly been on the decline since 2019 despite winning a Ballon D'or for his last season. That was also his weakest Ballon D'or win ever. His start to the 2020-2021 season was poor, but he picked up his form in the 2nd part. Maybe the same will happen at PSG, but I also think it's delusional to not acknowledge that he's been on the decline for a while and sooner or later he will be finished. I believe plop prime/peak Messi in the PL and he would do just fine, but that is my belief because he's well one of the best ever. However sooner or later his legs will be gone and that will probably be at PSG.
But that is what Messi has been since Xavi and Iniesta left, he was their primary playmaker, it is just that he is not an attacking central midfielder like Iniesta nor a midfield metronome like Xavi, hence he will never fill the holes they left in the midfield, simply because he is not a CM like either, rather he would be playing an entirely different role, which he has been playing since past three-four years, i.e, the free flowing number 10, who waits for the ball to come to him. An entirely different game than what Xavi and Iniesta did, who were like ants, slowly building the game and keeping control.
I’m yet to see Messi dictating the tempo of the game. I don’t even get where this Messi play maker ideas come from. Some are even saying he is the best play maker ever when he is not even the best playmaker in any team he has ever played in. Ply making is much more than being a good passer( he is brilliant at it. Up here with the best). And not all attacking midfielders are playmakers either.
it’s about setting up the tempo of the game. He doesn’t do that .
play makers are people like Scholes, Zidane, Requelme, Xavi, Tiago, Verrati, Pirlo, Kroos, Modric, Iniesta. These people leave a blue print on how people around them play. Elevates everyone around him. People like Ozil, Mata, Messi , Lampard etc are brilliant playersand some more than play makers but that doesn’t make them playmakers.
If Ozil and Messi are not play-makers, I do not know who are
. You seem to mistake midfield metronomes with the term playmaker.Playmaker are players who make play happen, that is initiate an attack visioning how it will end and work with their teammates to make them happen. Messi almost in every game, goes deep, collects the ball, distribute it and try to iniate an attack. That is playmaking, he is doing hat for both Barcelona and Argentina for years. Just because he does not make 100 passes every game does not mean he is not a playmaker.
I think your definition of a play maker is off. While it's true that "traditional play makers" dictated the tempo of the game more than modern attacking play makers, the were far from Xavi, Kroos and the likes as well. I very much doubt that somebody like Zidane, Laudrup, Riquelme, Pelé or Maradona ever registered 90+% passing accuracy, let alone 95+%, as Xavi or Kroos regularly did/do. And I believe that their touches per game, passing accuracy, shot attempts, etc. were much closer to Messi than to the players you mentioned. And while some might actually have been less risky in their decision making, many legends who are considered play makers were at least as risky as him (Ronaldinho, Laudrup, Zidane, Maradona, Zico, ...). If Messi isn't a play maker to you, I'd be curious who is.
Personally, I think there's no player who's better at advancing the ball up the field than Messi. He's not only incredible in terms of through balls, dribblings and finishing, he's also incredible at finding team mates between the lines, exploiting the tightest passing lanes and also switching the play to the other wing. That to me is play making - creating and finding space for yourself and team mates, unlocking defensive blocks, getting the opponent to move his formation, initiating transitions from static to dynamic situations and so forth.
He did amazing for Argentina, and for psg everyone is struggling. I could understand if it was just Messi, but if the whole team is doing poorly that’s more on Poch than Messi.
Oh wow….my god…
Hope he scores a hattrick vs Cercle Brugge. Was the type of opponent he scored wonder goals and demolished.
Wonder if he will just get one. Hopefully not and shows that he is just saving his energy for the UCL no matter the opponent.
Wonder if he will just get one. Hopefully not and shows that he is just saving his energy for the UCL no matter the opponent.
Oh yes, that one, he was forced out.
I mean it wasn't long before last season where he was ready to take them to court so he could leave Barca on a free? Clearly he was happy to leave then?
I know Messi fans wish he was Ronaldo and could just walk into any league/team/set-up and instantly score and perform as the best in the team/league/world.
But it's not for everyone. That's what makes Cristiano the greatest footballer of all time.
But it's not for everyone. That's what makes Cristiano the greatest footballer of all time.
Nah, it would be boring to watch somebody who is so anonymous over the course of a game these days. 36 year old Ronaldo is about narratives and story telling. He comes alive for a few seconds of a match, doesn't participate much for the remainder and then dominates the headlines because he scored. Which is nice but I don't need to watch him for 90 minutes to get that.
But fortunately he's usually surrounded by players who have a high density of create plays
I have a lot lesser posts than you, partly because im a new member and partly because i read the forum once in a while, so as compared to you, perhaps you should spend more time outside.
Well noting that your post brings nothing else to the table, just like many of those in the cr7 camp before. Like literally nothing
All this Messi debate can boil down to a simple fact: Messi is a great (greatest) player, but he is not cool. Think of Best, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Platini, Zico, Socrates, Maradona and the aura they had. Messi is just a boiled potato in comparison.
You are just really confusing advanced playmakers with cm playmakers. By your definition Michael Laudrup was not a playmaker.
Wrong thread.
This narrative again eyyy. Ronaldo does nothing in a game. I mean under Ole, it was difficult for most of our strikers to get in the game.Nah, it would be boring to watch somebody who is so anonymous over the course of a game these days. 36 year old Ronaldo is about narratives and story telling. He comes alive for a few seconds of a match, doesn't participate much for the remainder and then dominates the headlines because he scored. Which is nice but I don't need to watch him for 90 minutes to get that.
But fortunately he's usually surrounded by players who have a high density of create plays
Yet, he keeps scoring winners, equalisers. You do realise its a skill to be alive for 90 mins so when a chance falls, you are ready?
Also, Ronaldo's approach play and play is oftern underestimated. Maybe this is because people are comparing to what he used to be.
Comparing him to PL Strikers in Lukaku and Kane whom at the start of the season people were really excited about. Per 90 mins
Also, I know you will come back and talk about Lewandowski, so I added it in even though its not like to like because there is a massive difference when you play for a team that dominates the league to one that has more competition. You cans see that Ronaldo fares pretty well against most strikers.
In that case does Lewandowski go quiet all game and come alive for 30 seconds?
| Lukaku | Ronaldo | Kane | Lewandowski | |
| Touches in pen area | 7.13 | 6.48 | 4.85 | 8.52 |
| Progressive carries | 3.18 | 6.90 | 3.91 | 3.59 |
| Progressive passes | 1.77 | 2.26 | 2.73 | 1.82 |
| Passes attempted | 20.57 | 32.65 | 28.12 | 24.32 |
| Pass completion % | 71.2% | 80.6% | 69.5% | 76.8% |
| Shot creating actions | 3.21 | 3.35 | 2.88 | 2.95 |
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So the greatest player of all time, but not the coolest. I think he don’t really give a feck.
Yeah I think it's fair to say he could've retired. In terms of reducing his wage demands to go to essentially any club he wanted to, I really don't think it's that simple. It made perfect logical sense to say he priced himself out of staying at Barca, until that obscure and largely unintuitive regulatory requirement became public knowledge. I think this is much the same. There are of course no regulatory requirements forcing him to go to a team like PSG, but there are environmental pressures that play a bigger role than his own preference, IMO. As much as we can say that players should just lower their wage demands and play in cities, clubs or styles of football that they prefer, that really doesn't happen, no matter who we're talking about. I don't think that's because they're a bunch of rich wankers, I just think
I don't think happy would be the right word. There's very little about the Barcelona situation that makes anyone happy. But then you're clearly seeing this as part of some extended Messi vs. Ronaldo debate which I really don't give a shit about, so you signal whatever you want to signal man, for me life's too short for that.
For his haters it really seems more about him spending his entire prime at his dream club. If Ronnie had done the same at man utd I doubt anyone would have a problem with it.
yup, he still talks like a nervous teenager
.Most of the players you mentioned were a character, Messi is the typical modern day player, who hen asked about anything, his response is so diplomatic and discreet. The only time he shocked everyone was of course when he went against Bartomeu, but that way too polite than say how anyone of the above would have conducted.
But he's not compared to Kane and Lukaku but to Messi. And call me crazy but if I have to pick between a player who has 10 great plays a game and scores decisive goals and a player who has 3 great plays a game and scores decisive goals, I pick the first.
Moreover, I was winding the guy up for clearly coming here to provoke. Don't get too worked up about it. I know Ronaldo is more than a poacher.
Clearly worked hahaa.
Fair enough. What I am also trying to say is, most out and out strikers barely get a kick in games, they just have to be there.
It's just something that has always raised questions for the all-time greats. Pele was amazing for amazing Santos and Brazil teams but how good would he be elsewhere? For many, that's just an unanswered question. For others, it's easy to extrapolate. It's what makes it very easy for some people to say Maradona was better, nothing about being a Pele hater.
Some people just have no idea what they are talking aboutOh wow….my god…
I mean sure, if you compare it to Xavi who is one of the greatest midfield in the history then Messi's ability to dictate the tempo could be average.
But to say he never dictates the tempo when is ability to so is better than the likes of Rooney (who is actually really good at dictating the tempo) is just absurd.
Pelé was almost universally regarded as the greatest until Messi hit his peak. Yeah Messi could have joined a pl club during his prime but why would he want to and who could afford his transfer and wages?
Miss-y
Couple good chances so far. Think we'll see an Mbappe hattrick and a messi goal before this one's over.
Couple good chances so far. Think we'll see an Mbappe hattrick and a messi goal before this one's over.
Banger of a goal from Messi
TYpical Messi goal eh? Little bit of razzle dazzle with legs and head and boom, top corner!
Feels like he’s scored that exact same goal 4 times already this season.
He’s an outside the box merchant
Best part of that goal was Mbappé nutmeg+cross pitch pass with his left foot hitting messi in stride
He has to create his own goals, not like others.
Did you actually watch the whole play?
Only reason he "had to" create his own goal is that he bloody choose to.
Mbappe put him infront of the goalie, he just pushed the ball.Did you actually watch the whole play?
Only reason he "had to" create his own goal is that he bloody choose to.
It is amazing how he has mastered that outside of the box goal. Yes it is not the same long range goals which most cream about(although there has hardly been any player who has scored more than 10 from that range in open play, I mean 35 meters or more), but it is amazing how many he has scored in last 5 years or so outside the box.
No, Mbappé hit him in stride on the counter 40 yards from goal in transition, he had 2 defenders in front of him and 2 teammates streaking past to open up space and offer him options. He could have put Hakimi through. He could have gone back to Mbappé(difficult, but he's Messi), he could have gone for a one-two with i think was Di Maria. He bloody choose to just go to his left foot, drag two defenders with him and take that shot. Kudos to him for scoring it. He's Messi, he can get away with doing that
He can get away scoring beautiful goals. Spoiled little man he is
You’re an absolute poet when you speak highly of Messi
He makes plays. The defitinion is the gotdamn word
It just so happens that he's the most agressive and efficient playmaker of all time, he goes forward 99% of the time unlike anyone on your list, because he can, they cant.
Heh.
The best description of his brilliance is that for 15 years he routinely made decisions that would have had any other player benched forever and make them look bloody genius. He used to be a demigod afterall