Did I just read some one claiming that Messi couldn´t lace Son’s or Mane’s boots ? The Horror
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Joint most goals.
Jesus, this thread is really producing some gems
See, people pointed out Cristiano scored lots of penalties because it was emblematic of what they generally criticized: People hyping up his performances mainly because of goals while he didn't do much besides them. Your posts just show that you never really understood what that criticism was about. And transferring that to Messi is quite honestly ridiculous because goals are just a tiny part of his overall contribution.In other words, if somebody criticized Cristiano because "only" scored a penalty, the only thing you can answer is "yeah but a goal is a goal and you have to convert it first". When somebody criticizes Messi because he "only" scored a penalty, you can answer "yeah but he was the best player on the pitch, creating the most chances, beating the most opponents, etc.".
Messi won a World Cup with a great performance. That is an actual iconic performance, not the "most dribbles" trophy of 2021. Absolutely insane that people are still trying to make this happen.
No, the criticism was that a penalty is a high xG chance that's normally converted and is worth less than a normal goal for that reason, and routinely comparisons have been made using non penalty goals.Jesus, this thread is really producing some gems
See, people pointed out Cristiano scored lots of penalties because it was emblematic of what they generally criticized: People hyping up his performances mainly because of goals while he didn't do much besides them. Your posts just show that you never really understood what that criticism was about. And transferring that to Messi is quite honestly ridiculous because goals are just a tiny part of his overall contribution.In other words, if somebody criticized Cristiano because "only" scored a penalty, the only thing you can answer is "yeah but a goal is a goal and you have to convert it first". When somebody criticizes Messi because he "only" scored a penalty, you can answer "yeah but he was the best player on the pitch, creating the most chances, beating the most opponents, etc.".
Yet, one of the Messi fans who listed reasons Messi's 2022 was better than mbappe 2018, included 7 goals is better than 4 goals, without a hint of irony that 4 of the 7 were penalties and to use Messi fan's preferred metric of non penalty goals, then mbappe scored more.
It's just obvious bias, and you're trying making excuses shows bias as well, we're not talking about penalties in the context of a wider performance, one of the listed reasons was directly comparing their goalscoring tallies, even though when penalties are removed, mbappe had a better total
Yeah it definitely was, that's why the women's award stuck to the standard timeframe.
I think this award was combined with the ballon d'or for years and then separated and they both switched to season rather than calendar year, which is really odd to not just have given them in the summer, and include the world cup as part of the 22/23 awards
You don't get it, let's stop it at that.
No I get it, messi's contribution is more than goals, but that doesn't make his penalty goals worth more than someone else's penalty goals. And to use the non-penalty goals stat for a decade, then switch back to regular goals as soon as it favours your player is pretty clearly biased
It’s more about quality really which you seemingly haven’t gotten a grasp of yet. This is the typical fan wars talk we see on social media and brings the standard of the forum severely down.
I think there’s always a case for two / three players winning any individual award. But the WC win and the manner in which he won it (first in 38 years, nobody saw it happening 4 years back, man of the match game after game, seeming swansong) made it inevitable really.
Why don’t you just point out who gives Messi’s pens more value than your favourite players pens and then you and him / her can have at it? As it’s been repeatedly pointlessly to anybody and everybody for no apparent reason. Seems like you had a bad argument and are venting here.
Andrade specifically included his list of reasons why Messi 2022 was worth a ballon d'or and mbappe 2018 wasn't as 7 goals > 4 goals. When Messi's fans have been using the non penalty goals metric for so long, to avoid using it when it suddenly wouldn't favour Messi is a bit odd.
Yeah I didn't argue with the obvious part that he'd get it, it was the deserve part, people were saying Madrid fans were crazy for suggesting benzema deserved it, all those factors you list don't make the performances any better (apart from the man of the match, but Argentina winning it 4 years ago or 38 years ago shouldn't make any difference on the quality of the performances
It is your interpretation. And you're willfully ignoring the context because you want that perceived bias to be true. Most likely the people you're referring to were making a broader point. They weren't saying "Messi is better than Ronaldo because he scored more non-penalty goals". That's a stupid argument which is why you put so much emphasis on it: It is easy to counter. The actual argument was always that Messi contributes a lot more and that Cristiano scoring goals to polish relatively uninvolved performances doesn't elevate him to the same level. Especially when those goals come from penalties for which you don't even have to be involved at all - the perfect manifestation of the underlying understandings of football clashing with each other, so to speak.
But there's a huge difference between being invisible and then converting a penalty your team created for you to converting a high stake penalty after having an inspired and breathtaking performance being the focal point of the whole game. But you reduce that to "you Messi fans always criticized Ronaldo for penalties and now you're suddenly not criticizing Messi for it" - no, it was never about penalties, they were just a manifestation of what the whole discussion was about.
I'm saying that Messi fans using non penalty goals for a decade and suddenly completely dropping that metric after a world cup where nearly 60% of Messi's goals came from penalty is beyond parody.
If they're trying to say Messi is better than Ronaldo because of his all round game there are plenty of other metrics to use, they've spent a decade using non penalty goals to make Ronaldo look worse, its the only reason they've done it.
To not point out that suddenly non penalty goals isn't a metric that should be used and the timing coinciding with a world cup where Messi scores 4 penalties is clearly massively biased. However you want to look at it
All this talk while Messi is clearly better player and always has been.
You keep cherry picking international managers as if that proves that they're all bad. Let me do the same. Ever heat of Hansi Flick? Luis Enrique? Roberto Mancini? Did they struggle at club level? And I'm not sure why you think Southgate would not be able to get a PL job, that's clearly nonsense, of course he would after his success with England. Whether he would be successful is another matter but that's not the point. It is also silly to say that every modern striker has a worse record at international level because the managers are worse. How is that even logical? A player cannot score goals unless they have an elite manager? Mbappe scores less goals for France because because of Deschamps? Come on.
The Bolivia example is nonsensical because it doesn't explain the gap over a 100 or 150 game international career with many different players that i named, some of who dont't play in South America and seldom have to deal with weird conditions.
Others have said that you're a Ronaldo guy and that makes sense because a Ronaldo fan would always try to downgrade the WC against the Champions League for obvious reasons. There's nothing wrong with being a Ronaldo guy. But the World Cup is still the pinnacle of the sport, for the same reasons as in the past but also for different reasons than in the past.
Southgate might get a bottom half job, I can't imagine a single top 6 fan would want Southgate as replacement when their current manager leaves. England are a better international side than we are at club level, they're top 5 in the world arguably but we're not, if anyone had suggested Southgate taking over in the summer, there would have been fury on here.
It should be obvious why top managers wouldn't want to take international jobs, less time spent with the players, no ability to transfer in players that fit your style, chances of a trophy only come up every couple of years, far less pay than the top club jobs offer.
The bolivia example, again is not meant to refer specifically to international football. If United played a Bolivian team in Bolivia we'd struggle massively, that doesn't make it a higher standard of football. Likewise top players struggling to replicate club form at international level because they have worse managers, less cohesive team etc. Also doesn't make it a higher standard of football. Both international football vs club level, and Bolivia vs other countries have factors that make it more difficult to play, but in neither case does it make the more difficult place to play the higher standard. Playing on a waterlogged pitch can make it very difficult to produce your best form, no one would suggest that playing in bad conditions is the peak standard of football either
Also look at the difference in rashford when he's playing under solskjaer or rangnick compared to ten hag, he's scoring a lot more goals. Messi wasn't great at 2010 world cup, you're going to say having a useless manager didn't impact that. It's crazy to dismiss the importance of managers when we're seeing the difference it makes first hand this season
You're quoting another poster.
Yeah, we understood that even the first time you said it. It's not as if that's a particularly difficult thing to grasp, it just makes no sense.
You would have a point if Messi had an anonymous tournament and just scored from penalties without having excellent allround performances. But he did have excellent performances which is why the hypocrisy you try to point out doesn't even exist. You just come across as somebody who ignores context in order to split hairs to get a point win for his idol.
In 2018 Messi finished the fifa awards at 5th even though he had crazy numbers that year. Where was the public outcry? So yeah world cup matters alot.
Not bad
Not bad
You have an ICONIC performance in a World Cup and you get the big prizes. Simple as that.
The Best is voted by players, media and coaches. He won by a large margin in all these 3 things. You can't deny he deserved it.
WC it's above all competitions. Will always be like that and it's alright.
The Best is voted by players, media and coaches. He won by a large margin in all these 3 things. You can't deny he deserved it.
WC it's above all competitions. Will always be like that and it's alright.
It's got nothing to with context, you spend a decade using non penalty goals to compare players (and not just Ronaldo its been used with everyone), create graphics that only compare goalscoring and nothing else, use non penalty goals plus assists per 90 to judge a players productivity, then just go, forget all that we'll go back to inclduing penalties in goals totals is odd
I disagree, I mean how many times have players been signed off the back of one good international tournament, and how often does that ever really work out for the clubs? It's just a throwback to when international football was the peak of football, and was the only chance people would often get to see Brazilian or Argentinian greats. Now though, when you have teams at club level that are so highly trained, drilled every day, not back in the 70s where you could drink and smoke and still play at a decent level.
Even as a Messi fan i disagree about this part. These award should be objective and not sentimental. I think Benzema deserved this award but i doubt he cares since he won Ballon D'or. Messi started this season on fire though and hasnt really stopped and won the wc. If they get knocked out in the next match i dunno really. Great league form + a iconic wc you win will usually get it but i dont think the quality of football is higher in the wc although Messi was the talisman in a solid but unspectacular team.
I doubt many users in here created such graphics. That usually comes from Twitter and was created by football analysts who do these kind of things because it is probably common practice to capture a player's impact from open game. If you want to claim those are all Messi fans and the only reason they do that is because they want to have a dig at Cristiano, then I'd say that's a conspiracy theory.
Well I would argue you don't have to be a statistician to create those graphics, just take data statisticians complied or football analysts. Either way Messi fans have absolutely favoured using non penalty goals plus assists per 90 as a way to judge productivity over the last decade. The thing is I don't even get why it's ap difficult for Messi fans to apply the same metric to this world cup, he was the best player of the tournament with or without the penalty goals, just seems like as soon as a measurement doesn't favour Messi in some way, that can be disregarded. I remember back in 2011, Ronaldo was called a big game bottler and after messi's semi final performance, Messi fans would say that the big game performances in the champions league was the big difference, while Ronaldo was a flat track bully. After Ronaldo got his incredible knockout record, suddenly performances in big games weren't a useful metric any more. After Messi has a world cup where more than half his goals are penalties, suddenly non penalty goals aren't the best metric of goals scored by a player.
The only one quoting his 7 goals all the time is you.
That's what I mean with splitting hair. You get totally worked up over something that's secondary to most people praising his WC. And I guess that's because you're balls deep into the spread sheet riding done by Cristiano supporters for ages.
And no, you probably need data about goals, no penalty goals, etc in CSV format and I doubt many in here know where to get that. The graphs you're referring to probably come from statistic and football nerds ('top right Messi' redditors). You're really fighting windmills here.
To be fair it depends on the context. I'd definitely rather either of those two now. If you're talking about their peak or career obviously that's ridiculous.
Well I mean yes, I think you'd struggle to argue that top right Messi redditors aren't Messi fanboys. If you're part of a sub literally called toprightmessi it's a fair bet
But its not secondary to most people, one of the first things people seem to mention about Messi this world cup is top goalscorer, but that's only if you're taking penalties into account.
In 2021/22 Messi couldn't lace their boots.
Good luck trying to deny that when he had a terrible season and couldn't make Ligue 1's TOTS nor the ballon d'or shortlist
And are we or whoever you're constantly referring to with "you" top right Messi redditors?Well I mean yes, I think you'd struggle to argue that top right Messi redditors aren't Messi fanboys. If you're part of a sub literally called toprightmessi it's a fair bet
But its not secondary to most people, one of the first things people seem to mention about Messi this world cup is top goalscorer, but that's only if you're taking penalties into account.
But never mind, even if we actually talked all the time about non penalty goals in Cristiano context and suddenly stopped using them, what exactly would be hypocritical about it? Maybe people excluded them in case of Cristiano because they wanted to highlight how little he contributes from open play. That's obviously not the case with Messi so what would be the point in excluding them? It doesn't even make sense. Messi contributes probably like no other footballer on the world from open play, what would even be the point in excluding penalty goals with him? What would it prove?
Of course its hypocritical if you use non penalty goals as the metric until it isn't favourable for your favourite players, that's a textbook definition of hypocrisy.
It would prove he wasn't the best goalscorer at the world cup, he just happened to play in the team awarded the most penalties I suppose, that if di Maria had taken those penalties instead, it probably wouldn't have made that much difference.
How much do you have to contribute before your penalty goals count, Ronaldo has the assets record for the champions league, but that isn't enough obviously. It's a fairly arbitrary criteria, that some players penalties count towards their goalscoring abilities and some don't.
That's why it's hypocritical, because otherwise you're taking an arbitrary point based on which players you like and saying let's use two different metrics
See, and that's what I and others mean when we say you don't understand it and maybe football isn't for you. If you need an explanation for this, you haven't understood the sport. Goals and assists aren't a means in itself, in the end they are only the last or second to last touch before a ball passes the goal line. But they aren't necessarily the most important and second most important touches in the sequence of play that lead to that outcome. Obviously they correlate with good attacking performances but to which degree they correlate varies. Playing as high up the pitch as Cristiano does, especially during the second half of his career, will drastically increase the probability for assists and goals, especially in comparison to a player who is as involved in the build up and occupies as deep positions as frequently as Messi. Just comparing these metrics with itself is far bigger hypocrisy than anything you criticize right here.
And what you don't get is that it is you who applies that logic, not us. You interpret far too much into the non penalty stuff because the Messi camp cares far less about goals tonbegin with than you.
Messi's performances weren't just that he scored the penalty and did shit all the rest of the game. He was the standout player in pretty much every game including the game vs Poland where he did not score. Simple as.
No it isn't. You say removing penalty goals highlights Ronaldo's lack of contirbuiton, now even if I agreed with that (which I don't, the painting of him as an inzaghi type forward is only reflective of his second spell here and maybe some of his time at juventus) there are hundreds of other metrics that could highlight that, assists, key passes, dribbles, that would be more reflective of an all round game, so why would removing penalties from his goals be used to show a lack of an all round game when you have other stats that would be far more useful to determine this.
When you're talking specifically about goalscoring, to include penalties for one player and not another, is just about the beat example of hypocrisy you could find
So what? You can mention the other parts of his performance then. If you include penalties in one players total and consistently put an asterisk when they form part of another's total. Particularly given it wasn't 1 goal out of 7 but 4, a record number of penalties awarded.
The only reason to include it for one player and not another is bias.
Where did I mention stats? The reason why people mock Ronaldo as Penaldo is because from 2015/16 (arguably to a lesser degree before 15/16), he has been a goalpoacher who could contribute nothing all game but than score a tap in or a penalty AND penalties made up a huge portion of hus goals.
You're just salty.
Ronaldo's penalties make up 18% of his total. Messi's make up 13.5% of his. That's not a massive difference in how much of a portion of goals he contributes.
See thus is what I mean by facts being misrepresented
Yeah, I can't wait for a few weeks time, this shitty standard of club football will be over, and we can watch the gold standard where Germany take on Peru, it'll be fecking class.
Seriously, I'm astonished anyone in 2023 is trying to argue international football is the highest level, most people consider the qualifiers or friendlies during the season as pointless distractions from club football, and liked watching the tournaments because they only happen every few years, but the idea it's the highest level is ludicrous.
We bought maguire off of a good world cup, funny that the 90m defender who was good at a world cup isn't actually of that high a standard. Madrid bough Rodriguez off the back of a good world cup, but it seems like despite playing well at your so called gold standard he couldn't displace Ronaldo, Bale or benzema, none of whom had ever finished as top goalscorers at the highest level of football.
Has buying a player based on a good world cup ever been a good decision?