One thing i hate the most about Stan Collymore is how he brings United into every "debate" he argues. The discussion starts with how poorly Liverpool are doing and then hes talking about how poor Uniteds signings have been...
Liverpool are just a stepping stone to a bigger club
- Thread starter langster
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Id take Coutinho over Oscar.
I do think he's been a little overrated because of that POTY nomination however he's more capable of unlocking a defense than Oscar. He really needs to work on his end product though. He has a bit of Hazard in him, in the sense that he's a very good dribbler and can do things that doesn't always show up in stats.
I disagree that Liverpool are a stepping stone club as much as I dislike them. They're in a financial position were they could easily turn down big money offers for players, it's not like they're Milan/Valencia or Ajax who simply have to sell. Torres for 50m was a no brainer and pre FSG no? The reason Suarez left was Barca came calling, even United will struggle to hold onto Spanish/South American players when Barca/Real come knocking.
Their recruitment has been terrible for a long time and the wage structure is preventing them from competing with the top 5/6 clubs in the world when signing big names.
Their recruitment has been terrible for a long time and the wage structure is preventing them from competing with the top 5/6 clubs in the world when signing big names.
I'm not sure they could attract the big names back then either. They were limited to signing Luis Garcia, Cisse, Robbie Keane...
The only big signing i remember being impressed at them pulling off was Torres, because most of Europe were after him. They've been a level below in the transfer market for some time.
Yeah, that's a load of nonsense. Oscar has been Mourinho'd, he's just a standard work horse attacking midfielder now.
I agree completely. This wasn't started as a WUM thread, I admit it's fun to get some revenge after all the grief from last year, but it's genuinely an interesting scenario. Thankfully, not a scenario United are currently in, but one that we could conceivably have fallen in to.
It bodes an interesting question on quite how Liverpool get themselves out of it, because the immediate future doesn't look overly promising, especially with clubs like Southampton getting in on things too.
Alonso and Mascherano come to mind, but you are right. I think back then it wasn't a case of the bigger names not wanting to come, because that wasn't exclusive to Liverpool at the time, I think it's more the players they bought. Their transfer policy and scouting system has been off for a long time. Saying that though they did win a CL and get to another final during that time so they were doing something right.
In fairness though, I've said it many times that I think Torres would have been perfect for United, he would have fit very well, but he chose Liverpool as apparently he'd supported them since he was a kid. Cisse and Babel both came with pretty high reputations and both looked to be promising signings.
That's it, they'll struggle to hang onto their players when other clubs can offer to double or triple their wage.
Based on his reputation perhaps but Coutinho has had a better season than Oscar imo. Given the choice I'd rather have Coutinho as well.
Arguably every club in the world now is a stepping stone to Barca or Madrid when you get to the highest level of player. Still, 'Pool don't have the pull of other traditionally big clubs for the step below that. Honestly not taking the piss when I say they're at a closer level to Tottenham in terms of the players they can attract.
End of the day, any club who can't offer mad wages or a solid bet at champions league football aren't going to constantly keep or bring in the best players, past be damned.
End of the day, any club who can't offer mad wages or a solid bet at champions league football aren't going to constantly keep or bring in the best players, past be damned.
Sad but true, they've spent too long not winning much and out of Europe that they can't compete with top clubs for signings. But like Spurs every now and then they'll end up with a worldie from a gamble on a good young player.
Even if so there's worse positions to be in... Still think they are able to attract most players under the age of 22/23. If they can then develop them into top players then that will mean they're doing something right even if they then have to sell them off and could even result to climbing up the league. They need a consistent period in the champions league to appeal to big clubs tho.
Oh and btw don't believe players like Torres went there to move on to bigger things. Think the signings in that era genuinelly thought they were going to one of the biggest clubs but what followed 09 bar last season has really been a bit of a disaster for liverpool.
Oh and btw don't believe players like Torres went there to move on to bigger things. Think the signings in that era genuinelly thought they were going to one of the biggest clubs but what followed 09 bar last season has really been a bit of a disaster for liverpool.
Both are pretty inconsistent players. Oscar is much more versatile and can play 3-4 different positions pretty effectively unlike Coutinho. He's a better two-way player and contributes both in attack and tracking back defensively. He'll get stuck in willingly. This is the main reason he's a nailed on starter for Brazil ahead of Coutinho and will continue to be.
Despite all this hype about Coutinho's offensive contribution this season Oscar has still been more productive than he has. Coutinho is more flashy and has silkier dribbling ability but those are the only things he's clearly better at than Oscar.
How far is it to Goodison from Anfield, anyway?
Start watching more of Coutinho, you're showing yourself up there.
Cou has played as a #10, both wings, and even in CM a few times. He always gets stuck in and never shies away from his defensive duties, and his tackles per game is surely one of the highest for any AM in the league.
To say he doesn't get stuck in willingly is disingenuous, to be honest.
Describe to me what Coutinho does better than Oscar other than dribbling to beat a man.
Scoring goals? No.
Assisting goals? No.
Tackling and defensive contribution? No.
Passing? That's arguable.
Dribbling? Coutinho has him beat there.
Yep, I'm mainly going off what I've seen from when he's played against City, but Coutinho definitely gets stuck in for a little guy. Has no problem doing the dirty work in the team. Can't imagine there's much difference between him and Oscar for work rate.
You are spot on with this, no chance any of the elite clubs will go for him this summer, City might have a go at some point though.
If Liverpool change managers now they might just push back turning the corner. No one short of a living, breathing legend in the making could resurrect that club in a mere three years. The rot is deeper than most Liverpool fans will acknowledge. They are a solid tier below England's elite. They are still a few years of prudent signings and coaching from being able to regularly challenge for the CL. They are not some big club on the brink. They are a club that's been on a long decline and no longer can compete with who they wish were their peers. Liverpool can close that gap, but it won't be as simple as getting the right manager and doing it in a year or two.
As several posters have pointed out, this season has had some mitigating circumstances for the performance. Tbf, last summer's transfers carry plenty of fault. Rogers & Co are simply going to have to do better to amount to more than they are.
Part of that--for me--is them having to do so much at once because they have to sign so many players. They have a bad habit of signing average players and then having to move them on. Add in Liverpool can't regularly attract the talent England's top tier can and it makes for them signing players in batches. It's a self-defeating cycle they are going to have to break to progress. A new manager with new personnel requirements won't help that right away. I'm not sure their scouting network and executive(s) set up is ready for that. They seem like a club caught up in their way of doing things--like any minute now their intrinsic glory will re-emerge and carry them back to their former heights. That side of the house is not making the critical judgments about their way of doing business and making the changes.
Last year Rogers had Liverpool playing football that terrified the league. Suarez was the tip of their spear but there was a lot of quality play other than him. It's not their new standard with him at the helm but proof of a concept. Suarez came and peaked too early for Liverpool to hold on to and they found themselves a step or two back. If they stick with the Wee Sage (as annoying as he can be) they might grow into something that can compete. The lot of them have a lot to figure out and plety of hard work to do to even approach that point.
If they really think that Klopp or Benitez comprehensively better--so much better they should scrap Rogers and his work--great, do us the favor. Start over again. The only worrying thing is that it'd be with a quality manager. It's be one less club to contend with for CL while United stabilize in the post-Ferguson era.
As several posters have pointed out, this season has had some mitigating circumstances for the performance. Tbf, last summer's transfers carry plenty of fault. Rogers & Co are simply going to have to do better to amount to more than they are.
Part of that--for me--is them having to do so much at once because they have to sign so many players. They have a bad habit of signing average players and then having to move them on. Add in Liverpool can't regularly attract the talent England's top tier can and it makes for them signing players in batches. It's a self-defeating cycle they are going to have to break to progress. A new manager with new personnel requirements won't help that right away. I'm not sure their scouting network and executive(s) set up is ready for that. They seem like a club caught up in their way of doing things--like any minute now their intrinsic glory will re-emerge and carry them back to their former heights. That side of the house is not making the critical judgments about their way of doing business and making the changes.
Last year Rogers had Liverpool playing football that terrified the league. Suarez was the tip of their spear but there was a lot of quality play other than him. It's not their new standard with him at the helm but proof of a concept. Suarez came and peaked too early for Liverpool to hold on to and they found themselves a step or two back. If they stick with the Wee Sage (as annoying as he can be) they might grow into something that can compete. The lot of them have a lot to figure out and plety of hard work to do to even approach that point.
If they really think that Klopp or Benitez comprehensively better--so much better they should scrap Rogers and his work--great, do us the favor. Start over again. The only worrying thing is that it'd be with a quality manager. It's be one less club to contend with for CL while United stabilize in the post-Ferguson era.
That's not the part of your post that I took issue with. Don't agree that Coutinho is only better at dribbling but you could argue that either way - it's the rest that was laughable. More versatile how? Coutinho has played a lot of positions for us and played them well, in a few different positions. He gets stuck in really well, just because he isn't a thug like Oscar doesn't mean he doesn't put himself about, he's a hard worker and can play a disciplined role in midfield if he has to.
Hmm, Oscar has top level work rate, not sure that Coutinho is at that level in that regard. They are both overrated to me, however. I wouldn't be interested in United signing either. Mata is better than both.
Which is probably one of the most important assets for a #10 to have alongside vision and passing ability. It creates space and gives your team a lot of opportunities going forward. That is what I want from an attacking midfielder, couldn't give a feck how much tackling he does in a game if he creates X chances per game. And for the record, Coutinho does his fair share of defensive work and always gives himself 100% on the pitch, there are far worse midfielders in that regard.
I'll not argue which one of them is the better player but Coutinho definitely has had a better season and has developped a lot better than Oscar over the last two years, imo. He won't go anywhere this summer though. Has always said that being able to play as much games as possible is his objective, and he wouldn't be a (guaranteed) starter at City, PSG, you name it. I can see him end up at Barcelona if he keeps improving and performs more consistently though. Anyway, hard to tell right now.
Both of those were also using Liverpool as a stepping stone imo. Alonso came from Real Sociedad and was fairly unknown, whilst Mascherano had spent the previous season with West Ham. Also, not wanting to cheapen their European successes of 2005 and 2007, but Europe was lacking in terms of great sides back then. Even Arsenal got to a final! Madrid were full of pensioners, Barca weren't the force they would become, Chelsea were still figuring Europe out and United were in transition whilst battling injuries. Still a great achievement, no less.
Nah, maybe last season but not after this one. Coutinho has taken his game past Oscar and when he continues to develop his end-product it won't be much of a contest.
Having said that I think Oscar will eventually turn it around and live up to the early hype.
That's a little harsh. They aren't at the top level of clubs but imo, only 4 are (Barca, Bayern, Real and United). If some reports are to be believed, Aguero might use City as a stepping stone by going to Real. What about Ronaldo with us? I doubt any player goes to Liverpool with the intention of using them to work his way up. It's just the case that the main clubs are more attractive propositions when they make a serious effort to sign one of Liverpools players but that's the same for most clubs.
Fair point, but Coutinho can play more positions than just a straight #10. He's no Silva, though, that much is true... Saying that, who is? Silva is amazing. Jesus, why am I trying to fit our best player into a City squadSod that, haha.
A long-term replacement for Carzola? If he keeps improving and Liverpool don't, that wouldn't seem like a bad move for him in a year or two. Pretty sure Santi is 30 this year.
While I'm not going to allow myself to get dragged into a Coutinho vs Oscar slanging match (I think both have a lot of room for improvement but the potential is clearly there), there's a few things that are probably worth mentioning.
Stats aren't everything, I agree with that. Mignolet has more clean sheets than DDG playing behind a defence with Glen Johnson in it. Is he a better keeper? Yes... Alright, no, but you were mad for a second, right?
Oscar might not be the star he was last season or the season before, but he's playing in a great team and struggling to stand out. It's a lot easier for Coutinho to stand out playing alongside makeshift strikers and midfielders like Joe Allen than it is for Oscar to stand out playing behind Costa & alongside Hazard & Fabregas.
I wouldn't trade, though. Not because I think Coutinho is better, but because I just enjoy watching him play more than I do Oscar or even Ozil.
Light hearted trolling. This is why we need opposition fans.
isn't this why jose sold mata, as he doesn't graft as much
This would be much better with Rodgers and staff on the ship, the likes of Ballotelli, Coutinho, and Henderson on the lifeboats, Suarez's silhouette in the sky, and Gerrard on a jet ski. And Rafa captaining one of the lifeboats.
I like the way Rodgers has his teams play, but I now wonder if they'd be better off finding a manager better at assembling a defense. I think it's fair to look at their starting XI and see them as having 4/5 of the front players sorted and young, and literally not a single fixture in their back 6.
Sterling-Sturridge-RW
-Coutinho-Henderson-
---------DM------------
LB---CB----CB-----RB-
---------GK------------
Can would seem to be the best bet, but no idea at what position.
On topic with the thread, by the time they get the back 6 sorted, Sterling and maybe another of those front 4 will likely have moved on to a better side.
They don't have to be a stepping stone club, but Lovren-Lallana-Balotelli-Moreno-Lambert-Markovic is looking a fairly horrid summer and may keep them from it. Imagine if they'd bought Depay, Ricardo Rodriguez, Alderweild and Schneiderlin for what looks like a similar figure. They'd just be looking for a defender (or 2) and a keeper this summer, instead of half a team.
Sterling-Sturridge-RW
-Coutinho-Henderson-
---------DM------------
LB---CB----CB-----RB-
---------GK------------
Can would seem to be the best bet, but no idea at what position.
On topic with the thread, by the time they get the back 6 sorted, Sterling and maybe another of those front 4 will likely have moved on to a better side.
They don't have to be a stepping stone club, but Lovren-Lallana-Balotelli-Moreno-Lambert-Markovic is looking a fairly horrid summer and may keep them from it. Imagine if they'd bought Depay, Ricardo Rodriguez, Alderweild and Schneiderlin for what looks like a similar figure. They'd just be looking for a defender (or 2) and a keeper this summer, instead of half a team.
Let's be real.
Every single club is a stepping-stone to Real Madrid and Barcelona.
Every single club is a stepping-stone to Real Madrid and Barcelona.
with United Real yes Barca not so much
Everyone is below Real and Barcelona in the pecking order, though I agree that Real especially has that extra appeal.
Real are at the top, then Barca, followed by a clutch of teams i.e. United, Bayern, Chelsea, Juventus, Arsenal etc.
Liverpool is basically the football club version of a bicycle with training wheels. Once you've got the hang of it, you move on to the real thing, which is more fun.
OK I'm probably exaggerating.
OK I'm probably exaggerating.
what the Glazers are planning...is to make United bigger than Real....
and they will....
and they will....
He's not a midfielder, he's an attacker. He just needs to get those goals and assists to take himself to the next level.
Meh.
All this is a question of money. If Liverpool had an Abramovich to pay 8/10 million euros net to some top players, then probably would be no debate. If Madrid/Manchester/Barça/Bayern pay 2 million euros and another team pays you 3, then probably you would think in history and titles but if Monaco, Psg, City, Chelsea are paying 3 /4 times more,then there is no choice.
Anyway the excuse of money in not totally valid since they have invested a lot this summer and the last renewal offer to Sterling was really strong.
How rich is the financial group/owner of Liverpool?
Anyway the excuse of money in not totally valid since they have invested a lot this summer and the last renewal offer to Sterling was really strong.
How rich is the financial group/owner of Liverpool?
You may be right (financially speaking), since Madrid has less profits this year, while Barcelona continues to rise. There are two theories on Madrid´s accounting, the official one and other that is very negative. My theory is that Florentino expects the club to collapse in some years and is already preparing the change to limited liability company
No, their real problem is wasting money on average players. They outspend the majority of the teams in the league and still have utter crap playing for them in some areas of the pitch.