Liverpool : General discussion

[caid]

A good manager always helps.
Look at city, they've pissed loads of money up the wall but they dont look all that special.
I agree with gandalf, top 4 is possible for them, i think its probably a bit early and that team does need a fair bit of surgery though.
I'd still expect chelsea to recover and finish ahead of them.

 

[Rory 7]

This is just so much bullshit though.

I swear to god, ever since Ferguson left this place has been infected with a fatalism that says money is the sole factor in the game. It's not only boring and dull for every discussion to fall back to, it's also not anywhere near as true as people make it out to be.

Loads of top class players get 'unearthed' without any real competition from big clubs. Even 'big' names.

We signed Alonso, Torres and Suarez without any of the big guns wanting to have a go. Spurs signed Modric and Eriksen without competition. There is nothing in the market about players of that stature today that has changed compared to back then.

Are we going to get outgunned if we bid for Pogba or Benzema? Probably. But those aren't the ones we'd target anyway. Under Ferguson, you guys wouldn't have bothered either and you still managed just fine.

I couldn't agree more. Well said.

 

[Crossie]

Thought this article would fit into the money discussion: http://www.21stclub.com/blog/2015/9/22/the-cost-of-going-nowhere

 

[SirBobbysCombover]

This is just so much bullshit though.

I swear to god, ever since Ferguson left this place has been infected with a fatalism that says money is the sole factor in the game. It's not only boring and dull for every discussion to fall back to, it's also not anywhere near as true as people make it out to be.

Loads of top class players get 'unearthed' without any real competition from big clubs. Even 'big' names.

We signed Alonso, Torres and Suarez without any of the big guns wanting to have a go. Spurs signed Modric and Eriksen without competition. There is nothing in the market about players of that stature today that has changed compared to back then.

Are we going to get outgunned if we bid for Pogba or Benzema? Probably. But those aren't the ones we'd target anyway. Under Ferguson, you guys wouldn't have bothered either and you still managed just fine.

Money in the game is buil shit??

Time to get your head out of the sand and realise how the football landscape has been shaped, when I was growing up it wasn't so much a factor,I cannot see in the modern era how you could ever get Cloughs Forest or say Ferguson's Aberdeen, taking a club with small budget and succeeding in domestic and elite level competition.

Portsmouth gave it a stab and look how they ended up, football is now cooperate business, where money rules and dominates.

History counts for nothing now, look at Raheem in the summer, that would have never happened in the early 90s, so as much as you don't want to believe it, money with correct infrastructure will breed success, something Liverpool have never seemed to marry well, hence their perilous position as a cub based on history rather than recent glory.

 

[B20]

Money in the game is buil shit??

Time to get your head out of the sand and realise how the football landscape has been shaped, when I was growing up it wasn't so much a factor,I cannot see in the modern era how you could ever get Cloughs Forest or say Ferguson's Aberdeen, taking a club with small budget and succeeding in domestic and elite level competition.

Portsmouth gave it a stab and look how they ended up, football is now cooperate business, where money rules and dominates.

History counts for nothing now, look at Raheem in the summer, that would have never happened in the early 90s, so as much as you don't want to believe it, money with correct infrastructure will breed success, something Liverpool have never seemed to marry well, hence their perilous position as a cub based on history rather than recent glory.

Money is obviously a highly significant factor.

The idea that it is the only rule and that whoever has less money will always lose out to whoever has more money is a false conclusion. Just look at what clubs like Atletico and Dortmund have done without following this rule.

It also makes you boring as feck on online forums to fall back on this as if it were a foregone conclusion. It's lazy reasoning.

 

[B20]

I couldn't agree more. Well said.

It's flipped almost 180. The majority has gone from priding yourselves on the kind of progressive on-the-up targets you'd go after (rather than shopping from the top shelf like Real, PSG and City) to asserting that spending is the only way to success, once Woodward went the way of big signings with the club wallet.

 

[Shark]

Money is obviously a highly significant factor.

The idea that it is the only rule and that whoever has less money will always lose out to whoever has more money is a false conclusion.

It also makes you boring as feck on online forums.

While that might be true short term, usually the clubs with significant spending power can sustain their success with minor blips here and there long-term. You lot have been lingering in 6th/7th spots over the past few years. Two seasons ago being the exception. I can't see that changing unless you start attracting and spending money to keep the players who can deliver that high level of sustainability. Right now, it's unrealistic to expect that, even under Klopp.

 

[B20]

While that might be true short term, usually the clubs with significant spending power can sustain their success with minor blips here and there long-term. You lot have been lingering in 6th/7th spots over the past few years. Two seasons ago being the exception. I can't see that changing unless you start attracting and spending money to keep the players who can deliver that high level of sustainability. Right now, it's unrealistic to expect that, even under Klopp.

If we get back to somewhat regular CL football I don't think it is especially unrealistic.

Arsenal have been running on a shoestring, even considering their wagebill and doing fine. Wenger is exceptional in that regard sure, but he also shows that for excellent managers it is more than feasible to get in that company without massive spending power. Clubs like juve, atletico and dortmund could all mix it up on the top end of this league and they spend less than we do.

There's loads of room for improvement within our current budget and also within the current squad.

A lot of ifs and buts in there and there is no doubt ours is a more difficult proposition than those of the top four, but that doesn't equate to it being the neigh on impossible job some are making it out to be.

 

[prath92]

Money is obviously a highly significant factor.

The idea that it is the only rule and that whoever has less money will always lose out to whoever has more money is a false conclusion. Just look at what clubs like Atletico and Dortmund have done without following this rule.

It also makes you boring as feck on online forums to fall back on this as if it were a foregone conclusion. It's lazy reasoning.

In PL money though is a major factor. Teams in Spanish and German leagues are more adept at getting players on the cheap. Teams like Dortmund and atletico seem to get a player from within their league pretty cheaply. But teams like United Chelsea Liverpool can hardly get many players cheap. Players like Shaw,Stones, even lallana, Schneiderlin cost amounts at least twice more than what a team in another league would have paid for a local player of similar talent.Once a PL team is involved every foreign club tries to fleece them. And a PL player is going to cost well more than his actual value. This is an entirely different ballgame for Klopp. Of course the advantage for Liverpool is that having him is better for attracting talent than if you have Rodgers as manager.

Martial for instance was wanted by a lot of teams but because United offered a huge fee they got him. The sheer money involved makes it impossible that other than a few teams, nobody else stood a chance.

 

[B20]

In PL money though is a major factor. Teams in Spanish and German leagues are more adept at getting players on the cheap. Teams like Dortmund and atletico seem to get a player from within their league pretty cheaply. But teams like United Chelsea Liverpool can hardly get many players cheap. Players like Shaw,Stones, even lallana, Schneiderlin cost amounts at least twice more than what a team in another league would have paid for a local player of similar talent.Once a PL team is involved every foreign club tries to fleece them. And a PL player is going to cost well more than his actual value. This is an entirely different ballgame for Klopp. Of course the advantage for Liverpool is that having him is better for attracting talent than if you have Rodgers as manager.

Martial for instance was wanted by a lot of teams but because United offered a huge fee they got him. The sheer money involved makes it impossible that other than a few teams, nobody else stood a chance.

All that tells you is that they have had to get smart to do it and so far none of the teams with their spending power in the EPL, except maybe Arsenal, have been similarly smart about it.

 

[Shark]

If we get back to somewhat regular CL football I don't think it is especially unrealistic.

Arsenal have been running on a shoestring, even considering their wagebill and doing fine. Wenger is exceptional in that regard sure, but he also shows that for excellent managers it is more than feasible to get in that company without massive spending power. Clubs like juve, atletico and dortmund could all mix it up on the top end of this league and they spend less than we do.

There's loads of room for improvement within our current budget and also within the current squad.

A lot of ifs and buts in there and there is no doubt ours is a more difficult proposition than those of the top four, but that doesn't equate to it being the neigh on impossible job some are making it out to be.

Arsenal have spent money when required though. They signed both Ozil and Sanchez for relatively big money and recently splashed out for Cech. They hardly beat us 3-0 with unearthed gems.

 

[SirBobbysCombover]

Money is obviously a highly significant factor.

The idea that it is the only rule and that whoever has less money will always lose out to whoever has more money is a false conclusion. Just look at what clubs like Atletico and Dortmund have done without following this rule.

It also makes you boring as feck on online forums to fall back on this as if it were a foregone conclusion. It's lazy reasoning.

You can't compare bundesliga and la liga to the madhouse that is the prem,Atletico granted was a beautiful story, let's not forget Valencia who also had success on a small budget, however bad investment decisions left that in tatters, hence my Portsmouth analogy , problem in the prem is that their is more heavy investment in lower tier clubs than reflected in other leagues.

So this goes full circle back to your comment about money being bull shit in a factor for success, which seems like a happy disposition as a football fan bordering on denial at the football landscape post-prem.

You can't compare the prem to other leagues, due to the sheer competition and that dovetails down to the lower leagues,klopp will have a rude awakening when realises his first taskis to fend of the teams below him rather than top 4.

 

[SirBobbysCombover]

Arsenal have spent money when required though. They signed both Ozil and Sanchez for relatively big money and recently splashed out for Cech. They hardly beat us 3-0 with unearthed gems.

This exactly, To say Arsenal have been operating on a shoestring is farcical.

Bournemouth I can agree with, but not the millionaires of Ashburton Grove.

 

[RobinLFC]

We're heavily linked on Twitter with a £29m move for Ruben Neves.

 

[prath92]

All that tells you is that they have had to get smart to do it and so far none of the teams with their spending power in the EPL, except maybe Arsenal, have been similarly smart about it.

Nothing about smarter. Teams generally seem to increase their asking price when a PL team comes in.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Since 2004, the league has been won by Chelsea (4 times), City (twice) and United (5 times, although none since Ferguson stepped down in 2013). The link with money spent and wage bills seems fairly obvious. Even United's post -Ferguson struggles derive to a large part IMO from the unwillingness to pay top dollar in Fergie's later years.

So you have three moneybags teams to get past, plus Arsenal who have started to spend more during the last three years. Without significant spending, it is extremely difficult for another team to break into that top 4 and even more difficult to stay there.

That's where the comparisons with BVB or Atletico don't really work as there are fewer big spending teams to get past in those two leagues. Plus, even there, I don't expect Atletico's 2014 championship to be repeated anytime soon while BVB seem to have fallen quite a long way behind Bayern (unsurprisingly since they seem to be able to poach their best players).

Which is a long way of saying that FSG need to back Klopp heavily in the market and improve on what has been an often dreadful recruitment strike rate over the last 20 years. The charismatic genius model like Clough doesn't work in 2015.

 

[Raw]

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Ings out for the season. He seemed to be doing pretty well for them recently too.

 

[VorZakone]

Ings out for the rest of the season.

 

[djembatheking]

Shame for the lad , I`m sure Klopp would have liked his energy .

 

[RedSky]

That's 2 long term injuries in a matter of days for Liverpool.

 

[Sylar]

Tough break for him as he was doing well for Liverpool and got his breakthrough into the England team.

 

[Brown Toothpick]

Shame as he's a likeable player. Liverpool can't afford another injury upfront.

 

[mav_9me]

Another tough break for Liverpool. I think he was playing himself into the first team.

 

[RobinLFC]

ffs we can't catch a break at the moment. Luckily Benteke and Firmino will probably be back next week.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Horrible news, looked like he was getting into good form too.

 

[ThierryHenry]

@Liverpool fans - what do you see your team looking like for the next few weeks?

 

[Rafateria]

@Liverpool fans - what do you see your team looking like for the next few weeks?

Knackered.

 

[Tommy]

Knackered.

...

Gutted for Ings and Gomez. Both have come in and looked really bright, so to lose them both a day apart to a potentially career threatening injury is genuinely heartbreaking.

@Liverpool fans - what do you see your team looking like for the next few weeks?

Klopp's 4-2-3-1.

Mignolet
Clyne Skrtel Sakho Moreno
Lucas/Can Hendo
Lallana Firmino Coutinho
Sturridge

Put Cou in the middle and Ibe on the field while Firmino is injured, and replace Hendo for Allen while Hendo is injured.

I'll stick to what I've said before. Bringing Markovic & Wisdom back in Jan, and a good few signings in Jan/Summer 16 will see us as genuine top 4 contenders next year. Our depth in strikers is good, another winger would be nice, we need a new DM (unless Can makes it there) and a young CB to improve on an aging Skrtel.

 

[steve9]

You can't compare bundesliga and la liga to the madhouse that is the prem,Atletico granted was a beautiful story, let's not forget Valencia who also had success on a small budget, however bad investment decisions left that in tatters, hence my Portsmouth analogy , problem in the prem is that their is more heavy investment in lower tier clubs than reflected in other leagues.

So this goes full circle back to your comment about money being bull shit in a factor for success, which seems like a happy disposition as a football fan bordering on denial at the football landscape post-prem.

You can't compare the prem to other leagues, due to the sheer competition and that dovetails down to the lower leagues,klopp will have a rude awakening when realises his first taskis to fend of the teams below him rather than top 4.

To be perfectly honest I think there is no league more overestimated than the EPL. If you asked today managers from around Europe who are the best 10 footballers in Europe, I would guess that not even one of that top ten is even playing in the EPL, despite all that money.

But this is not meant as a rant against English football, which I find entertaining, but just not quality, though. I just want to illustrate my point: In the EPL there is so much money thrown around for mediocre players, that I can call it only ridiculous. Honestly: No club outside the EPL was even considering Pedro at more than maybe GBP 5 million. And the ten's of millions that's spread around for average English players, who would be benched at mid table Spanish or German clubs?

So, yes, I do believe that a good manager with less money but with knowledge and smart transfers can win the league, even in England.

 

[Rafateria]

Expectations should be tempered. A fine quote from Neville (he goes on to say 18 months is a more realistic timeframe to see 'Klopp's Liverpool' :

To press up the pitch with the players he has is not automatically possible. Klopp has to instill it and it won’t be until January or February, when he’s had three months to work on the players, when we will see his ideas embedded. It would be unrealistic to expect Liverpool to turn Spurs over 3-0 while strangling them high up the pitch.

 

[Crossie]

Expectations should be tempered. A fine quote from Neville (he goes on to say 18 months is a more realistic timeframe to see 'Klopp's Liverpool' :

To press up the pitch with the players he has is not automatically possible. Klopp has to instill it and it won’t be until January or February, when he’s had three months to work on the players, when we will see his ideas embedded. It would be unrealistic to expect Liverpool to turn Spurs over 3-0 while strangling them high up the pitch.

Let's put Neville's pundit knowledge to the test then. I agree with him on the last sentence though.

 

[Tommy]

Expectations should be tempered. A fine quote from Neville (he goes on to say 18 months is a more realistic timeframe to see 'Klopp's Liverpool' :

To press up the pitch with the players he has is not automatically possible. Klopp has to instill it and it won’t be until January or February, when he’s had three months to work on the players, when we will see his ideas embedded. It would be unrealistic to expect Liverpool to turn Spurs over 3-0 while strangling them high up the pitch.

He's not wrong. He seldom is, to be fair.

Any points today would be a relief moreso than anything else, but damn, I've not been this excited for a game since our brief stint in the CL last season

 

[Tommy]

More enjoyable a watch than anything we've played under Brendan this season. At least the players today look like they gave a damn, although we were a bit lacking across the pitch. So were Spurs, though, so a draw is fair.

We're missing a whole bench of players, including our best 3 strikers, best midfielder, one of our most expensive signings, and one of our brightest young defensive talents. Bring Markovic back from Turkey, get Sturridge, Benteke, Ings, Firmino, Hendo, and Gomez fit, and that squad today can be improved both defensively and going forward.

 

[kouroux]

More enjoyable a watch than anything we've played under Brendan this season. At least the players today look like they gave a damn, although we were a bit lacking across the pitch. So were Spurs, though, so a draw is fair.

We're missing a whole bench of players, including our best 3 strikers, best midfielder, one of our most expensive signings, and one of our brightest young defensive talents. Bring Markovic back from Turkey, get Sturridge, Benteke, Ings, Firmino, Hendo, and Gomez fit, and that squad today can be improved both defensively and going forward.

Even better than the match at the Emirates ? I think that you're blinding yourself.

 

[Tommy]

Even better than the match at the Emirates ? I think that you're blinding yourself.

I think I forgot about that match True, but that match was an outlier. Other than that, we've been served nothing but gash all season.

 

[Minimalist]

Quality is still poor. Basically have opened up a bit more, expanded the play and press higher up but they're still average-shite players I'm afraid.

Boring a game as you'll see all season. Klopp will be eager to make signings.

 

[clarkydaz]

has klopp been in a prison camp for 4 months? needs a hot meal inside of him

 

[Rafateria]

Re-post.

When you consider Benteke, Sturridge, Firmino, Ings, Henderson and Gomez are all injured and the lack of time Klopp has had to train with the players (just 2 days with the senior players on International duty), we played very well, there was obvious improvement, effort (we looked like we wanted to win - that had gone under BR) and tactical progress. Good point and a fair result

 

[Raw]

First clean sheet for Liverpool this season. It's their year edit: never mind I'm dumb. I should probably stop looking at Twitter for stats

Seriously though, it was a pretty poor game but considering all the injuries and Klopp having no time with the squad then it's to be expected. Ridiculous decision not to sack Rodgers in the summer so Klopp can have time to mould the team to his liking.

 

[Rafateria]

Tottenham 0-0 Liverpool FT: Shots(OT) 13(4) - 12(3), Possession 49% - 51%.

Liverpool made 50 more sprints than Spurs (614 v 564) & were the 1st team to run further in a PL game than Spurs this season. Gegenpress