Louis Van Gaal | 2015-16 Performance Thread

[Chesterlestreet]

Out of interest, what are you basing that on? What you've seen at United? Or his reputation?

I have no idea what he's like on the training ground these days, obviously - and the results of what he does there isn't going to be immediately observable.

But what we know is that many players, including some undoubtedly great ones, have praised his ability as a coach (not as a manager, or a tactical genius * - but as a coach on a fairly basic, yet nevertheless very important, level).

My take on him is that what he teaches his players is largely very useful, regardless of what system they end up playing in. That, at least, seems to be the gist of what the likes of Xavi has to say. And this is the "legacy" part of LVG which matters - not the clearly silly idea that he leaves behind teams that any successor can put on autopilot all the way to the CL (the absurdly exaggerated impact he supposedly had on Barca and Bayern).

We needed a rebuild - that was obvious. I think he can do a job in that regard - and given his particular qualities, the style of football on display isn't an indication of what is to come from the players he has brought in, and trained. That's the upside - and the Bayern case is an example of this being true.

* Which isn't to say that they've suggested he's poor in these regards, but that what makes him stand out is his ability to teach some basics of football (positioning, passing, using your brains on the pitch) in a very effective manner.

 

[Sigma]

What worries me quite a bit is whenever you hear him in his post match interview's he says that we should have probably scored 2/3 goals because we had 2/3 chances. These players aren't robots they need more chances than 2/3 to be able to score even just 1 goal (sometimes).

 

[bucky]

What worries me quite a bit is whenever you hear him in his post match interview's he says that we should have probably scored 2/3 goals because we had 2/3 chances. These players aren't robots they need more chances than 2/3 to be able to score even just 1 goal (sometimes).

That's one of the things that annoy me the most about him. On one hand he's always talking about the human being, meaning he takes into consideration how a player fits into a group or a team and that you have to treat and see every player differently, on the other hand he wants his player to be as effective as robots. I always find it cringeworthy when he comes out after a game saying something like we created a lot of chances, when we actually had like 3 and he expects us to score 4.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Yeah. It's obviously true that we should be more clinical in the box, but that doesn't change the fact that we create far too little for comfort. If you depend on burying the two or three clear cut chances you manage to create, you better make sure you have a Müller clone to bury them.

A more obvious way to deal with the problem is to start creating more chances.

 

[acnumber9]

We would have spent more or less the same 250m had we bought all those players like Rooney Ronaldo Alan smith Michael Carrick Louis Saha evra Vidic VdS etc in today's market. I'm not even counting our failed signings like bellion kleberson djemba-djemba and all.

That's extremely unlikely. Only two of those players were high prices within their own era. They also weren't all at the club at the time of those games and were signed over a three year period. It's nice that you try though. Admirable almost.

 

[Pexbo]

What worries me quite a bit is whenever you hear him in his post match interview's he says that we should have probably scored 2/3 goals because we had 2/3 chances. These players aren't robots they need more chances than 2/3 to be able to score even just 1 goal (sometimes).

We had 13 shots, 7 in their area. It's not unreasonable to think a couple might have gone in.

 

[SqueakyWeasel]

We'll get champions league football at the end of the season and then I think he should go....

I've seen nothing to suggest the man knows how to set up a team to play attacking football - fair enough we are a lot more solid and he's cleared a lot of 'dead wood' but his decision making is ridiculous sometimes....

From persistence with Rooney, ignoring Herrera and Mata in past, to awful subs to out paper thin squad, to 2 established strikers (one of whom is in the worst form of his xareer) and allowing Hernandez to leave.... the guy is a joker

It feels like our best football has come in spite of him.... a couple of bad results and he will feel the wrath of the fans.... in the last couple of months you can feel the tide turning

This is where I'm currently parked!

 

[bucky]

Yeah. It's obviously true that we should be more clinical in the box, but that doesn't change the fact that we create far too little for comfort. If you depend on burying the two or three clear cut chances you manage to create, you better make sure you have a Müller clone to bury them.

A more obvious way to deal with the problem is to start creating more chances.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/man-united-premier-leagues-best-6803702

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Edit: Chances created in comparison:

http://www.squawka.com/football-tea.../2016#0#90#any#any#season#1#all-matches#total

Another Edit: In comparison with the rest of Europe:

http://www.squawka.com/football-tea...any#any#season#1#all-matches#total#desc#total

 

[Triple.Threat]

when did shooting become unsafe to United. I really don't recall the last time we had a shot from outside the box. Hell we even take short-corners.

I guess Lampard would have never scored/became Renties all-time goal leader under Van Gaal. For those who followed his Barca/Bayern/AZ and so on, was he always like this?

 

[prath92]

That's extremely unlikely. Only two of those players were high prices within their own era. They also weren't all at the club at the time of those games and were signed over a three year period. It's nice that you try though. Admirable almost.

Ronaldo was the costliest teenager in the league at £12m. Don't you think that today a highly rated teenager would go for at least £25m especially with Jorge mendes his client? Rooney cost us £25m. Imagine what a young wonder kid who is a full England international will cost today? At least £45m? other players like smith and Carrick will just as easily cost us £20m each due to them being English.

Maybe you are unable to analyse all these. So leave it if you can't. You can continue to think that we were super duper for all years before van gaal came and he destroyed the club.

 

[prath92]

when did shooting become unsafe to United. I really don't recall the last time we had a shot from outside the box. Hell we even take short-corners.

I guess Lampard would have never scored/became Renties all-time goal leader under Van Gaal. For those who followed his Barca/Bayern/AZ and so on, was he always like this?

Just yesterday schweini and Memphis took multiple shots from outside. We had long corners yesterday too. Lvg himself said that he wants people to take shots from outside the box. I don't think the players are confident to try though.

 

[Yorkeontop]

Its not like Maria took us from being one of the best footballing sides in Europe to this. The man preaches about good football and he knows what we're doing is not up to scratch. The philosophy was never meant to turn us exclusively into a defensive force, its just that this is the part we have come to terms with quicker than the offence within the realm of the philosophy. I look to Paulus to improve us at the front going forward. Might not be until next season though.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I don't think the players are confident to try though.

Yes, but honestly - whose responsibility is that at the end of the day? They're not all fresh off the boat. What it looks like at times - too often, one could say - is that they don't go in for the proverbial kill (both passing and finishing) instinctively at all, but overthink their moves to a degree which stifles the team as such and makes us look anything but lethal.

In a certain phase this is acceptable: They have to learn the system (and to several of the players LVG inherited the system was alien, no question about that). But how long is this passable as a valid excuse?

The overwhelming majority of the players in our regular XI are now his own - and one may argue that after 18 months in charge, they should ALL be "his" in the sense which matters. If they're still playing without confidence (and that's what it looks like), he seems to be struggling on a rather fundamental level.

Not across the board - obviously not. We're not leaking, defensively the formula is working adequately. But offensively? Barely at all at times.

And I don't really care whether LVG's approach as such is offensive, or creative, or what have you IN THEORY. After 18 months in charge we should see more of that theory put into practice. I'll say it again: If we have to go out and buy a couple of attacking players on Neymar's level in order to look like some kind of team going forward, then there's every reason to question how brilliant the system is overall. It may work well enough as a means to play it safe and gather enough points to keep us there or thereabouts in a not-too-impressive league, but that's a minimum of what one may expect for a club of our ilk.

Now, I stress that this isn't something I hold very greatly against LVG. As long as he does keep us there or thereabouts, I'll call it adequate and let him keep on keeping on. I'm not impatient - and for several reasons I think we should let him complete the rebuild rather than doing something rash. But I won't pretend that he's doing a flawless job at setting up this current group of players in actual matches - just sadly hampered by the quality of said players, who are inherently lacking in confidence, passing ability, or finishing prowess. I'm not buying that for one second.

 

[itso 7]

Van Gaal simply has to go at the end of this season because the part of his job that he can do effectively will be done and the other part, I fear, is beyond him. I don't see him taking us any further than he already has and his continued stay will simply result in us wasting another ton of money for players he won't get the best out of. His decision to completely rip the blueprint he had stumbled upon in the latter part of the season during the summer shocked me because I felt all we needed to was build on last season's foundations i.e the 4-3-3 which we used so effectively to dismantle Spurs, Liverpool and City. Why did he have to do that? Why did he prune out the whole attack to leave us overly dependent on 19 year old that we landed on deadline day? Why wasn't he willing to work on the players that we let go off too early, players like Nani, Kagawa and Hernandez could have contributed something meaningful to this side, especially if he knew that he had no realistic chance/plans of replacing the said players.

Whe have the money and, now, a base to build upon (thanks to him) so we should go for the best going around to really propel us to the next level.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/man-united-premier-leagues-best-6803702

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Edit: Chances created in comparison:

http://www.squawka.com/football-tea.../2016#0#90#any#any#season#1#all-matches#total

Another Edit: In comparison with the rest of Europe:

http://www.squawka.com/football-tea...any#any#season#1#all-matches#total#desc#total

Bloody hell. Safe to say that missing chances really isn't the issue here. Van Gaal's got a brass neck to keep moaning about our finishing.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I refuse to believe that he actually thinks we're a creative enough a side. I'm hoping the repetitive comments that we created enough to win is just a facade, because it's not the mentality of a top club. Norwich create 3 or 4 chances per game as well I'm sure. By his post-match-comment-logic, Norwich should score enough to win most games too.

 

[prath92]

Yes, but honestly - whose responsibility is that at the end of the day? They're not all fresh off the boat. What it looks like at times - too often, one could say - is that they don't go in for the proverbial kill (both passing and finishing) instinctively at all, but overthink their moves to a degree which stifles the team as such and makes us look anything but lethal.

In a certain phase this is acceptable: They have to learn the system (and to several of the players LVG inherited the system was alien, no question about that). But how long is this passable as a valid excuse?

The overwhelming majority of the players in our regular XI are now his own - and one may argue that after 18 months in charge, they should ALL be "his" in the sense which matters. If they're still playing without confidence (and that's what it looks like), he seems to be struggling on a rather fundamental level.

Not across the board - obviously not. We're not leaking, defensively the formula is working adequately. But offensively? Barely at all at times.

And I don't really care whether LVG's approach as such is offensive, or creative, or what have you IN THEORY. After 18 months in charge we should see more of that theory put into practice. I'll say it again: If we have to go out and buy a couple of attacking players on Neymar's level in order to look like some kind of team going forward, then there's every reason to question how brilliant the system is overall. It may work well enough as a means to play it safe and gather enough points to keep us there or thereabouts in a not-too-impressive league, but that's a minimum of what one may expect for a club of our ilk.

Now, I stress that this isn't something I hold very greatly against LVG. As long as he does keep us there or thereabouts, I'll call it adequate and let him keep on keeping on. I'm not impatient - and for several reasons I think we should let him complete the rebuild rather than doing something rash. But I won't pretend that he's doing a flawless job at setting up this current group of players in actual matches - just sadly hampered by the quality of said players, who are inherently lacking in confidence, passing ability, or finishing prowess. I'm not buying that for one second.

i don't think they play without confidence. If that was the case, we wouldn't have been where we are. We have confidence. yesterday for instance we did go for the proverbial kill but the composure of the young players left us short. Can't blame anyone for that. They are young. This is how they will be. Ronaldo was equally frustrating early on trying to dribble all the time and ending up with nowhere to go. You can't give up on young players simply because they aren't polished enough. Even martial who is clearly talented is still raw in some aspects.

As for the players, most of the players who were bought have adapted or have been let go for whatever reason. Shaw Herrera blind Rojo are key members of our squad now. This year's purchases Morgan martial looks very good. Schweini have been good in many games. Memphis and darmian have shown their brilliance only to go off form of late. Again too early to write them off.

Teams now see us as a source of 1 point at best. Even city came to town wanting a draw. When was the last time they were scared to go open against us? Even during fergies seasons they used to try to score a lot. I see this as something that proves we have drastically improved.

 

[buckooo1978]

I refuse to believe that he actually thinks we're a creative enough a side. I'm hoping the repetitive comments that we created enough to win is just a facade, because it's not the mentality of a top club. Norwich create 3 or 4 chances per game as well I'm sure. By his post-match-comment-logic, Norwich should score enough to win most games too.

It's hard to believe I know but Van Gaal actually thinks that if we have possession we are attacking

When a manager has to repeatedly explain about instilling a philosophy and a process you wonder if the guy starts believing his own bullshit - it's almost Rodgers like manager speak and it seems Van Gaal is the only one who believes it

As far as I can see the process is keep the ball, pass safely, stay in positions, slow tempo

X amount spent and we are worse than under Moyes from an attacking point of view

With teams not really attacking us and sitting back more often than not you'd wonder if someone like Big fecking Sam would get similar results - extreme case but you do wonder

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It's hard to believe I know but Van Gaal actually thinks that if we have possession we are attacking

When a manager has to repeatedly explain about instilling a philosophy and a process you wonder if the guy starts believing his own bullshit - it's almost Rodgers like manager speak and it seems Van Gaal is the only one who believes it

As far as I can see the process is keep the ball, pass safely, stay in positions, slow tempo

X amount spent and we are worse than under Moyes from an attacking point of view

With teams not really attacking us and sitting back more often than not you'd wonder if someone like Big fecking Sam would get similar results - extreme case but you do wonder

I'm not convinced. He's a manager who has achieved big things in his career. I suspect he has a better understanding of what wins titles than that.

Rodgers is a good manager. I think he gets a lot of grief unnecessarily.

As far as I can see, he also has terrible options in attack right now.

The Moyes thing is silly. He has a target to meet and so far he's on target not failing miserably.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Teams now see us as a source of 1 point at best. Even city came to town wanting a draw. When was the last time they were scared to go open against us? Even during fergies seasons they used to try to score a lot. I see this as something that proves we have drastically improved.

Yes, that's a good thing - in theory. In practice, however, we have to be able to outplay teams who come to town in order to hang on for a point. Whether we do that or not seems a bit random to me. The match the other night was a pretty good example. We didn't seem capable of breaking down PSV at all in the second half, when it mattered.

Bad luck? Could have easily scored a couple if everything had gone our way in the first half? Yes, sure. But you cannot rely on having things go your way, When you need to score - you have to score. Keano put it rather well: They look like they're moving about waiting for something to happen, rather than trying to MAKE it happen. We do that far too infrequently.

We CAN do it - we did it just a few days earlier. But it seems to happen randomly rather than as a result of being a team that HAS that quality.

 

[buckooo1978]

I'm not convinced. He's a manager who has achieved big things in his career. I suspect he has a better understanding of what wins titles than that.

Rodgers is a good manager. I think he gets a lot of grief unnecessarily.

As far as I can see, he also has terrible options in attack right now.

The Moyes thing is silly. He has a target to meet and so far he's on target not failing miserably.

That's what has confused me the most as I was very impressed by that Bayern side he brought to Old Trafford in 2011 or 2012

He has poor options in attack but who's fault is that?

Name one striker who has prospered in Van Gaal's tactical masterpiece?

The reality is we scored more goals under Moyes - it was a statement more for effect but you can argue with goals scored column

 

[Escobar]

He always talks about progress and development but I havent seen that for a while now. We struggle with the same issues than ever

 

[amolbhatia50k]

That's what has confused me the most as I was very impressed by that Bayern side he brought to Old Trafford in 2011 or 2012

He has poor options in attack but who's fault is that?

Name one striker who has prospered in Van Gaal's tactical masterpiece?

The reality is we scored more goals under Moyes - it was a statement more for effect but you can argue with goals scored column

His, of course, but it's a separate point form coaching/tactics. It's something that can be rectified easily.

 

[Adisa]

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[DFreshKing]

I don't understand why he is getting so much heat. We did'nt win every game 5-0 under SAF.

In fact even going back to Cantona he used to get us crazy 1-0 wins, scraping through poor performances. I actually think the job he has done from Moyes/last winning team in 18 months is exceptional, building a great young foundation.

I know there has been a few marque signings (not that they made all the difference and a lot has been recouped) but the guys is a club builder of the highest order.

Confident he will do something special or at least lay the groundwork for another dominant period.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

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Not a lot to disagree with there.

"Certainly during the final three seasons under Sir Alex it was more a case of us getting over the line than anything cavalier.

"However, there was certainly a lot more ambition and threat in our play than there is currently with United."

The whole thing is faint praise really.

 

[buckooo1978]

His, of course, but it's a separate point form coaching/tactics. It's something that can be rectified easily.

that we do agree on but to rectify this it might mean saying goodbye as Van Gaal has said he wants a small squad and he seems oblivious to the form of Rooney

here's hoping we see an improvement of some sort

 

[golden_blunder]

In lvgs first season we scored 3 or more 16 times

This season 7 times so far

 

[Feedingseagulls]

Wrt the PSV game I too found the last 30 mins or so grim.

However, I think BFS had to come off around then having played so long the game before. The problem then was that the options were not ideal. Pereira and Mata are much more AM-like, so with Ander injured, that left the big Belgian.

To those who were saying we only ever pass back/sideways instead of taking on a man, I have to say that their memories seem more selective than I find mine. There were many occasions when the guys did exactly that, and failed. It became rather a theme. This also meant that the (often Rooney) long passes to the wings bore little fruit. These can work by giving the wide player a 1v1 opportunity, but if they are not getting past or making space, they either lose the ball or gradually accept they will not succeed with the man set and look to retain possession by looking backwards etc. If they had been getting joy then happiness would have come to the fans too.

Given those failures it also made sense to shield Memphis, and Young had a brief spell of influence... before our misfiring midfield shut him out of the game.

I was amazed and appalled at the lack of movement up front in that last period. Weird.

I think my major criticism of LVG revolves around squad size. It has meant that when injuries hit we overplay our players and have sometimes to play those whose form may not be the best. Putting in those less experienced in early season to prepare them for later is something Fergie did a lot, likewise squad players. Sometimes it cost us at the time.

 

[Sigma]

We had 13 shots, 7 in their area. It's not unreasonable to think a couple might have gone in.

I wasn't talking specifically about this game, its just a think I've noticed his past press conferences.

 

[golden_blunder]

"If we weren't creating chances I'd be worried, but we are and we don't give too much away - normally our results are good," Van Gaal said.

"Our defensive organisation is normally the best part of our game. We've proved that more than ever this season.

"That is why we are second in the league and second in our Champions League group."

That for me just shows where his mindset is; banging on about defence and not giving anything away, and ignoring the obvious flaws we have with going forward

 

[Pogue Mahone]

"If we weren't creating chances I'd be worried, but we are"

No we fecking aren't.

In another thread, I posted a link to the "chances created" table including all of the teams in Europe's top 5 leagues. We're 79th.

Six PL teams in the top 20 though (Arsenal, City, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea and Southampton) with Leicester just behind them, in 21st place.

 

[DWelbz19]

79th, ffs. How is he even justifying/ignoring this?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

79th, ffs. How is he even justifying/ignoring this?

By blaming our allegedly poor finishing.

More stats. Chance conversion table for the PL. We're in 4th place.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

The problem then was that the options were not ideal. Pereira and Mata are much more AM-like, so with Ander injured, that left the big Belgian

Pereira was always much better from deeper positions then from his "natural" AM position.....

 

[Sigma]

No we fecking aren't.

In another thread, I posted a link to the "chances created" table including all of the teams in Europe's top 5 leagues. We're 79th.

Six PL teams in the top 20 though (Arsenal, City, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea and Southampton) with Leicester just behind them, in 21st place.

By blaming our allegedly poor finishing.

More stats. Chance conversion table for the PL. We're in 4th place.

Yeah this is pretty shocking. And some journalists really should be asking him about this instead of the usual boring questions they manage to come up with.

 

[Dante]

To be fair, we've created 9,10 and 11 chances in our last 3 games. Earlier in the season it in the region of 2 or 3. We're getting better. Still a way to go, though. Even at the current rate, we're barely top 30.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

To be fair, we've created 9,10 and 11 chances in our last 3 games. Earlier in the season it in the region of 2 or 3. We're getting better. Still a way to go, though. Even at the current rate, we're barely top 30.

That is a fair point. I was pleased with the way we showed a bit more urgency against CSKA and we have looked ever so slightly more likely to score in recent weeks. The fact this improved chance creation rate is still so far below par is depressing as feck, though. Although not quite as depressing as the manager's insistence that it's acceptable and our main issue is failing to convert these chances.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

Pereira was always much better from deeper positions then from his "natural" AM position.....

But would you feel happy with him there in a 'crunch' CL tie? Without knowing in advance that Fellaini would be that gash?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

But would you feel happy with him there in a 'crunch' CL tie? Without knowing in advance that Fellaini would be that gash?

i dont rate Fellaini so yes, id rather have unproven talented youngster then proven average player.