Time will tell with klopp and it's a worry at the moment. But if people want to go on about how poor our attack is, look at what klopp has to work with and he's put 3 and 4 past Chelsea and city, think we are stuck with this guy since there is no one out there better than what we got, which was the case in the summer
Louis Van Gaal | 2015-16 Performance Thread
- Thread starter Nighteyes
- Start date
I agree, it's a horrible tactic.
He's a spineless coward of a manager. I really can't wait until he fecks off.
He could win us the PL this year with this shit on a stick football, and I think I'd still want him to go. I just want to enjoy watching United again, win, lose or draw.
He could win us the PL this year with this shit on a stick football, and I think I'd still want him to go. I just want to enjoy watching United again, win, lose or draw.
He won't, but I get exactly what you are saying.
You can't win the league with such a terrible attack. City and Arsenal have their own problems but over the course of the season they'll probably have enough goals in them to finish ahead of us.
Louis is doing fine on the whole, but he really needs to sort out our attack pronto or this could end up a really really long season....
united then lost the next 3 by scoring zero goals. scored 3 in our last 6. same shit different year. we'll go on a run then crash , it's what we do under this mug.
reload the poll and see where he stands today.
I'm not saying it will be a turning point, just that I basically expect us to turn up in that game, for us all to hope we've turned a corner, and then go back to being shit again.
12 of the 13 chances we created came before the 50mins. We need an inquest to what happened in that second half.
Was thinking that myself.
LVG happened. he happened to make the usual shite move from the bench to kill off the game , for them. like he tried to do v watford. he's a fecking mare when it comes to changing matches.
Totally agree, teams used to fear Utd for 90+ minutes, now they comfortably ride us out until LVG's predictable brainfart in the second half and completely neutralises and semblance of an attacking threat we have!
We're a 60 minute team at best & it's only a matter of time before teams start getting at us in the last quarter of the game.
good teams , half decent teams will feck us over - crap teams will make it hard. wait until LVG fecks it , save your switch until after he takes the piss and win at the end (or draw).
That will never return. Once Fergie left, fear factor was gone fully. It's only coming back slowly now. Even under fergie we were ripped apart in Europe mind you.
Ripped apart? By who? One of the greatest club sides in history. We went almost two seasons unbeaten in the competition not that long ago.
nope just reload it keep it open.
Martial ran out of gas, that's what happened. He was involved in almost everything good we created and him moving wide to receive the ball was the only way we had to attack in the final third. Not really a surprise, since he's the only one who can provide hold up play and invite runs around him and the only one who can constantly beat defenders and stretch defenses in this setup.
Unfortunately for us, he was a passenger after the cross that resulted to Lingard's header early in the second half. He probably hadn't trained well due to his previous injury. Then Cocu switched to a three man defense which our attacking players couldn't read. They got frustrated and you could see that on the pitch as the second half was progressing. Bringing Fellaini on didn't make things any better either. And the fact that it took LvG and the staff 5-10 minutes to swap positions between Fellaini and Rooney (we had no options to get the ball forward) indicates that there was frustration on the edge of the bench too.
His substitutions last night made 0 sense. We set up way too defensively at Old Trafford, certainly against a team like PSV. Need to start committing our full backs to help the attack as well some more creative drive from midfield. Herrera was dearly missed last night, a pity he was injured. Schweinsteiger and Schneiderlin are great midfielders but they are terrible as a pair. They offer similar service and are clearly both instructed to cover the back-line, which would make sense against a team like Real Madrid at the Bernabeu, perhaps not so much at home against PSV.
Ridiculous to say, we probably need to buy another midfielder in the summer in the mould of Gundogan, along with many other attacking players. Another striker, tricky/speedy winger and creative midfielder are dearly missed at the moment.
Ridiculous to say, we probably need to buy another midfielder in the summer in the mould of Gundogan, along with many other attacking players. Another striker, tricky/speedy winger and creative midfielder are dearly missed at the moment.
During our last transition
2004-05 CL group stage results
Lyon (A) 2-2
Fener (H) 6-2
Sparta (A) 0-0
Sparta (H) 4-1
Lyon (H) 2-1
Fener (A) 3-0
We conceded 9 goals in 6 games that season. We scored goals though due to which we qualified second in the group.
2005-06 CL group stage results
Villareal (A) 0-0
Benefica (H) 2-1
Lille (H) 0-0
Lille (A) 0-1
Villarreal (H) 0-0
Benefica (A) 1-2
A group stage which is similar to what we have this year. We ended up 4th in the group. We scored only 3 goals in 6 games. Safe to say we were worse than the current season then. Don't forget we had ruud Ronaldo Rooney Saha up front and had just added VdS to our team
Not to mention that we didn't win a single away game in these 2 seasons. We are Manchester United so we should always be the best and shouldn't be dominated right?
I think our defense Looks quite stable. For this LvG deserves some credit.
Our attacking game is on another note tough.
Our attacking game is on another note tough.
There are various alarm bells ringing at the moment, all resulting from the style of football being played -
1. First and foremost, it is incredibly boring. While football is different from other branches of the entertainment business in terms of the sheer, irrational amount of loyalty it engenders towards a club, there ultimately comes a point when you ask whether it is worth giving up a chunk of your limited leisure time to watch sterile, unimaginative football by numbers. I am reaching that point and I don't even have an excuse about living in some inconvenient time zone.
2. Secondly, while we are currently second in the league, I think it will become very clear at some point that the negative, risk free approach is adversely impacting our chances of lifting silverware. When a team creates so few chances, it will inevitably drop two points from time to time that might have been gained by being a bit more adventurous. We won't get beat often in the league but nor will we win the title when it's three points for a win. In Europe, even if we get through the group (after too many draws), we look like an away goals exit waiting to happen.
3. Thirdly, the players - I can't imagine many of our players (and certainly not our attackers) enjoy this approach to the game. I expect dressing room murmurings to become more frequent.
4. Finally, the club's ability to increase revenues (the raison d'etre of the modern United). How long can you keep signing big sponsorship deals based on the romance of United when the reality is so prosaic?
So can Van Gaal change? Based on his time at Bayern, probably not. Let's hope that there is at least a solid groundwork being laid for the next man which would go some way to justifying the sheer dullness of his reign. Either way, I would not be upset to see him moved on in May.
1. First and foremost, it is incredibly boring. While football is different from other branches of the entertainment business in terms of the sheer, irrational amount of loyalty it engenders towards a club, there ultimately comes a point when you ask whether it is worth giving up a chunk of your limited leisure time to watch sterile, unimaginative football by numbers. I am reaching that point and I don't even have an excuse about living in some inconvenient time zone.
2. Secondly, while we are currently second in the league, I think it will become very clear at some point that the negative, risk free approach is adversely impacting our chances of lifting silverware. When a team creates so few chances, it will inevitably drop two points from time to time that might have been gained by being a bit more adventurous. We won't get beat often in the league but nor will we win the title when it's three points for a win. In Europe, even if we get through the group (after too many draws), we look like an away goals exit waiting to happen.
3. Thirdly, the players - I can't imagine many of our players (and certainly not our attackers) enjoy this approach to the game. I expect dressing room murmurings to become more frequent.
4. Finally, the club's ability to increase revenues (the raison d'etre of the modern United). How long can you keep signing big sponsorship deals based on the romance of United when the reality is so prosaic?
So can Van Gaal change? Based on his time at Bayern, probably not. Let's hope that there is at least a solid groundwork being laid for the next man which would go some way to justifying the sheer dullness of his reign. Either way, I would not be upset to see him moved on in May.
Had time to think about this overnight, I'm still of the opinion we should jump at the chance of Ancelotti or Pep if they were to be available in the summer. Pep could seek a new challenge and Carlo is free to take the role.
Van Gaal has already said he intends to leave at the end of next season, let someone take over the sound squad at the end of the season and add a few players he feels can add something to the team already here.
Van Gaal has already said he intends to leave at the end of next season, let someone take over the sound squad at the end of the season and add a few players he feels can add something to the team already here.
The bit that so many people are missing is that whilst we were crap in that year when we finished 4th in the group we were not playing a dull, dreary and boring style of football.
There is quite a distinction between being rubbish and playing dull football.
Our tactical approach under LVG is really boring to watch.
Now if people are happy being the dullest team in the EPL and sitting in 2nd place then fine. I for one hate it. Would much rather be sitting in 5th place and thrilling to watch play.
If it's one game I get it but there were about 3 games in that year which ended up 0-0. That means we were tactically inept. As I said, we had Ronaldo Rooney Saha ruud and Alan smith that year as forward players. Even assuming 3 of them are out of form there are still 2 left. Imagine if LvG had achieved even one 0-0 with this attack available to him?
We didn't set up negatively at all last night. Negatively would imply we parked the bus. We attacked a lot in the first half. We had 7 shots on target and 12 or so shots. The second half our players looked knackered but we still tried to attack. It was however an abysmal performance from the players but it's not like we played for a draw.
And no I don't enjoy draws and losses irrespective of how we play. Winning matches give me more entertainment than losing after playing well.
It's reassuring that 90% of you aren't board members at the club, or hold significant management positions at large organizations. You have to realize that we will run the huge risk of setting ourselves back if we let him go - there is no guarantee that whomever replaces him would make things click. That new manager would want his own players, instill his own philosophy, and we'd be starting at square one.
There has been progress. He has significantly improved our defense, solidified our midfield, and has removed a lot of the deadwood - let alone turning players like Smalling into world-beaters. Are we bashing teams and playing like Bayern or Barca every week? No, we're not. Those two teams are loaded with individual quality players, and it makes the difference between us and them. But we're sitting second in the table with a chance to move to the top right before the Holiday season. We're not playing the prettiest, but we're getting results - which is all that matters at the end of the day. Should we have beaten PSV yesterday? Absolutely. Yet our finishing was easily the most wasteful it has been all season, and we had more than enough opportunities to grab goals. LVG can't finish for our players, that's their job. If Martial finished his clear cut chance in the first half, or Lingard finished one of his many chances a lot of you would be keeping quiet.
I will extend an olive branch, though, LVG's substitutions are still baffling to me. Taking off Schweinsteiger for Fellaini killed the game for us and let PSV into the game. And in general, his substitutions have been wank his entire stint here. But a lot of you just wait for moments like yesterday to call for his head and expect everything to go perfectly each and every game. Just take a second to calm your heads, look at things objectively as possible, and take it a game at a time. Re-access at the end of the season of where we are at with LVG, but please refrain from the hysterics after a frustrating 0-0 draw. Those games are going to happen, that's football.
We are way better off as a club than we were two years ago, and that is down to LVG's work, something that cannot be dismissed. I'm just trying to offer some perspective.
There has been progress. He has significantly improved our defense, solidified our midfield, and has removed a lot of the deadwood - let alone turning players like Smalling into world-beaters. Are we bashing teams and playing like Bayern or Barca every week? No, we're not. Those two teams are loaded with individual quality players, and it makes the difference between us and them. But we're sitting second in the table with a chance to move to the top right before the Holiday season. We're not playing the prettiest, but we're getting results - which is all that matters at the end of the day. Should we have beaten PSV yesterday? Absolutely. Yet our finishing was easily the most wasteful it has been all season, and we had more than enough opportunities to grab goals. LVG can't finish for our players, that's their job. If Martial finished his clear cut chance in the first half, or Lingard finished one of his many chances a lot of you would be keeping quiet.
I will extend an olive branch, though, LVG's substitutions are still baffling to me. Taking off Schweinsteiger for Fellaini killed the game for us and let PSV into the game. And in general, his substitutions have been wank his entire stint here. But a lot of you just wait for moments like yesterday to call for his head and expect everything to go perfectly each and every game. Just take a second to calm your heads, look at things objectively as possible, and take it a game at a time. Re-access at the end of the season of where we are at with LVG, but please refrain from the hysterics after a frustrating 0-0 draw. Those games are going to happen, that's football.
We are way better off as a club than we were two years ago, and that is down to LVG's work, something that cannot be dismissed. I'm just trying to offer some perspective.
Good post. Agree with every word.
Hang on...so, ten percent of the Caf are board members - or hold significant management positions at large organizations? That ain't bad...
Seriously, though - I doubt that 90% of the Caf want LVG sacked.
Moaning (even relentlessly) about the state of the football does not amount to wanting him sacked. It may seem like that after particularly disappointing performances, but it isn't necessarily the case - and, again, I doubt very much that 90% on here want LVG sacked.
Plus I would argue that a lot of the Caf who are board members would be a lot less emotionally invested in their job as they are in football.
I hate the style of football we play, its awful. However I dont want LVG sacked. I do appreciate the 2nd place on the table and the fact we are back in the champions league, I just hate the football. Some people dont seem to understand that some of us are simply unhappy with the style of football.
Oh, don't be so sure about that: Fergie, for instance...if he's a member here, he's bound to be emotional. Posting late at night after too much of the old claret...
Andy Mitten
After Wednesday's 0-0 draw with PSV Eindhoven, Manchester United's fourth goalless stalemate in seven games, a friend emailed.
"I compare the club to a bath," he wrote. "The water was leaking quickly down the plug hole when [David] Moyes was here. [Van Gaal] came in and put a big plug in there to shore things up. Problem is that now there are no bubbles and the water's flat and lifeless.
"I'm completely nonplussed by the football. [I still] buzz off the buildup and rushing to the ground, buzz off seeing my mates and standing with them, buzz off the pint afterwards, but I could happily fast forward through the actual football. United is merely a social club to me while [Van Gaal] is in charge."
In the supposedly exciting Champions League, entertainment is scant and the stadium atmosphere suffers as a result. It's a chicken and egg scenario: Should fans lift the team or the team lift the fans? Either way, the result is a flatter Old Trafford.
United came from behind to beat Wolfsburg in September and got a late goal against CSKA Moscow earlier this month before Wednesday's draw, in which PSV team gained their first European away point in eight years.
The "hard to beat, hard to watch" mantra regarding this season's United, which was espoused in private by a club legend, is all too apparent and hardly the best advert for next season's tickets, adverts for which are currently being circulated to prospective buyers.
United remain alluring to outsiders. This writer spoke to the PSV central defender Jeffrey Bruma ahead of the game at Old Trafford. His enthusiasm was high and he spoke about United in reverential tones.
"If we play United 10 times, we know that in normal circumstances they'd win nine," said Bruma, but he was wrong. With Bruma in the side and playing well on both occasions, Philip Cocu's well-organised side won at home and then drew in Manchester.
The latest stalemate was United's fifth 0-0 so far this season, which means last season's total of four has already been passed. There were three under David Moyes in 2013-14 and none in Sir Alex Ferguson's final two seasons. Fergie's side did draw 0-0 six times in 2008-09 and 2010-11, but only once in 2006-07 and 2009-10.
Wednesday was a bad night and qualification hangs in the balance going into United's final game at group leaders Wolfsburg. United won 3-1 the last time they played in the Volkswagen Arena back in 2009, thanks to a Michael Owen hat trick, but hopes for a similar outcome are slim for a side that has scored just five goals in as many games in Europe this season.
It was a bad day elsewhere for United, with the club's Under-19s battered 5-0 at home to PSV, a result that leaves Nicky Butt's side bottom of their Champions League group. However, while there are ongoing concerns about the club's youth system, the fortunes of United's first team are paramount.
Curiously, Van Gaal's side will go top of the Premier League if they win at Leicester on Saturday. The inconsistent form of rivals has helped United this season and the team are getting results.
The manager will lose his job if that doesn't continue but, while hard data might sate the club's executives who demand Champions League qualification from a top four finish every season, the football currently being played is hard to love, even if United are not losing many games.
There have been exciting moments -- notably Anthony Martial's debut goal against Liverpool -- and the season is still young, but the same complaints can be heard from fans. They don't associate their club with the current caution and conservatism that is being shown, as United suffocate opponents with possession.
The players who are training harder than ever looked drained on Wednesday and there's no question of a lack of professionalism. When they're spotted socialising around southern Manchester, it's usually with a glass of water, but there's more to it than that. A confident player usually performs better than a nervous, unsure one.
Some of United's most fondly remembered teams didn't win the league, but Tommy Docherty's wing wonders were loved in the 1970s and, the following decade, Ron Atkinson's side gave fans far more moments than the current team, even if some of them were of despair.
United were known for attacking football and that drew admiration from their greatest foes, such as Jamie Carragher, the most Liverpudlian of football men.
"My dad, for some reason, liked Man United," Carragher told me. "I always remember him saying that they played good football with wingers. He liked Ron Atkinson too. He said there was nothing not to like about Man United."
There is plenty not to like about the current, often sterile, football that Unted play but, without the results which Van Gaal's side are getting, there would not even be Champions League football to moan about.
The Dutchman continues to hit the targets set for him but his honeymoon period is long gone and there's pressure on him to win a trophy this season. When United win the disquiet stays muted, but is always bubbling under the surface. You even hear "I'd rather us play good football and lose" from some fans.
Frequent groaning is clearly audible during games at Old Trafford and the exploits of Barcelona -- one of three or four clubs operating on a similar budget to United -- seem a world away.
United were interested in Neymar, and while they could make the financial side of such a deal stack up, the football side simply does not. The way United currently play isn't enticing to prospective signings any more than it is to the fans.
With a win at Leicester the positives of Van Gaal's United will again be accentuated: The hard to breach defence, the outstanding goalkeeper David De Gea, the lack of defeats and the healthy league position.
But this expensively built team, which frequently fails to hit the highs expected, is fooling nobody.
Courtesy ESPN
After Wednesday's 0-0 draw with PSV Eindhoven, Manchester United's fourth goalless stalemate in seven games, a friend emailed.
"I compare the club to a bath," he wrote. "The water was leaking quickly down the plug hole when [David] Moyes was here. [Van Gaal] came in and put a big plug in there to shore things up. Problem is that now there are no bubbles and the water's flat and lifeless.
"I'm completely nonplussed by the football. [I still] buzz off the buildup and rushing to the ground, buzz off seeing my mates and standing with them, buzz off the pint afterwards, but I could happily fast forward through the actual football. United is merely a social club to me while [Van Gaal] is in charge."
In the supposedly exciting Champions League, entertainment is scant and the stadium atmosphere suffers as a result. It's a chicken and egg scenario: Should fans lift the team or the team lift the fans? Either way, the result is a flatter Old Trafford.
United came from behind to beat Wolfsburg in September and got a late goal against CSKA Moscow earlier this month before Wednesday's draw, in which PSV team gained their first European away point in eight years.
The "hard to beat, hard to watch" mantra regarding this season's United, which was espoused in private by a club legend, is all too apparent and hardly the best advert for next season's tickets, adverts for which are currently being circulated to prospective buyers.
United remain alluring to outsiders. This writer spoke to the PSV central defender Jeffrey Bruma ahead of the game at Old Trafford. His enthusiasm was high and he spoke about United in reverential tones.
"If we play United 10 times, we know that in normal circumstances they'd win nine," said Bruma, but he was wrong. With Bruma in the side and playing well on both occasions, Philip Cocu's well-organised side won at home and then drew in Manchester.
The latest stalemate was United's fifth 0-0 so far this season, which means last season's total of four has already been passed. There were three under David Moyes in 2013-14 and none in Sir Alex Ferguson's final two seasons. Fergie's side did draw 0-0 six times in 2008-09 and 2010-11, but only once in 2006-07 and 2009-10.
Wednesday was a bad night and qualification hangs in the balance going into United's final game at group leaders Wolfsburg. United won 3-1 the last time they played in the Volkswagen Arena back in 2009, thanks to a Michael Owen hat trick, but hopes for a similar outcome are slim for a side that has scored just five goals in as many games in Europe this season.
It was a bad day elsewhere for United, with the club's Under-19s battered 5-0 at home to PSV, a result that leaves Nicky Butt's side bottom of their Champions League group. However, while there are ongoing concerns about the club's youth system, the fortunes of United's first team are paramount.
Curiously, Van Gaal's side will go top of the Premier League if they win at Leicester on Saturday. The inconsistent form of rivals has helped United this season and the team are getting results.
The manager will lose his job if that doesn't continue but, while hard data might sate the club's executives who demand Champions League qualification from a top four finish every season, the football currently being played is hard to love, even if United are not losing many games.
There have been exciting moments -- notably Anthony Martial's debut goal against Liverpool -- and the season is still young, but the same complaints can be heard from fans. They don't associate their club with the current caution and conservatism that is being shown, as United suffocate opponents with possession.
The players who are training harder than ever looked drained on Wednesday and there's no question of a lack of professionalism. When they're spotted socialising around southern Manchester, it's usually with a glass of water, but there's more to it than that. A confident player usually performs better than a nervous, unsure one.
Some of United's most fondly remembered teams didn't win the league, but Tommy Docherty's wing wonders were loved in the 1970s and, the following decade, Ron Atkinson's side gave fans far more moments than the current team, even if some of them were of despair.
United were known for attacking football and that drew admiration from their greatest foes, such as Jamie Carragher, the most Liverpudlian of football men.
"My dad, for some reason, liked Man United," Carragher told me. "I always remember him saying that they played good football with wingers. He liked Ron Atkinson too. He said there was nothing not to like about Man United."
There is plenty not to like about the current, often sterile, football that Unted play but, without the results which Van Gaal's side are getting, there would not even be Champions League football to moan about.
The Dutchman continues to hit the targets set for him but his honeymoon period is long gone and there's pressure on him to win a trophy this season. When United win the disquiet stays muted, but is always bubbling under the surface. You even hear "I'd rather us play good football and lose" from some fans.
Frequent groaning is clearly audible during games at Old Trafford and the exploits of Barcelona -- one of three or four clubs operating on a similar budget to United -- seem a world away.
United were interested in Neymar, and while they could make the financial side of such a deal stack up, the football side simply does not. The way United currently play isn't enticing to prospective signings any more than it is to the fans.
With a win at Leicester the positives of Van Gaal's United will again be accentuated: The hard to breach defence, the outstanding goalkeeper David De Gea, the lack of defeats and the healthy league position.
But this expensively built team, which frequently fails to hit the highs expected, is fooling nobody.
Courtesy ESPN
Yep - it's that, in a nutshell. And I suspect many feel exactly this way.
Personally, I'm even fine-ish with us being a bit dreary as long as he keeps the ship afloat, and keeps bringing in the right sort of players (and I think he's done that, largely, so far). I believe he's an excellent coach, whatever else he may be. He won't stick around for any longer than his contract allows for - and in the grand scheme of things, his stint will be short. A dreary but productive stint, followed by...something completely different, style wise, entertainment wise...yes, I'll settle for that.
I won't sit around rationalizing the undoubtedly dull-as-hell football, though. Nor will I pretend that setting up in this fashion is necessary for scraping together a sufficient amount of points. It's HIS brand of football, HIS players (to a larger and larger degree), HIS preferred tactics - nobody and nothing forces us to play in this particular manner.
So we were ripped apart once in a dead rubber game? You're struggling here. Compare the budgets the two managers had.
4 goalless game in the last 7 
We would have spent more or less the same 250m had we bought all those players like Rooney Ronaldo Alan smith Michael Carrick Louis Saha evra Vidic VdS etc in today's market. I'm not even counting our failed signings like bellion kleberson djemba-djemba and all.
Yeah, this really. He's obviously a very good coach and knows what he is doing, and I have no doubt that we'll become a dominant team alongside bayern, madrid, barca again in the near future. Its just awful to watch us right now because of his style. It'll help in the long run having him here, but personally I'm looking forward to when he's done, and our transition phase is done and we get a new manager who brings attacking football back, built on van gaals style. Not that I want him to be sacked, just that this current boring football we have to put up with won't end until he retires basically, but we'll most likely be a lot better off for his time here.
I'm with you, 100%, word for word.
Out of interest, what are you basing that on? What you've seen at United? Or his reputation?
I just can't help worrying he's a manager who - unlike Fergie - has been unable to adapt and keep pace with the modern game. We're certainly not playing like a very well coached team.
We'll get champions league football at the end of the season and then I think he should go....
I've seen nothing to suggest the man knows how to set up a team to play attacking football - fair enough we are a lot more solid and he's cleared a lot of 'dead wood' but his decision making is ridiculous sometimes....
From persistence with Rooney, ignoring Herrera and Mata in past, to awful subs to out paper thin squad, to 2 established strikers (one of whom is in the worst form of his xareer) and allowing Hernandez to leave.... the guy is a joker
It feels like our best football has come in spite of him.... a couple of bad results and he will feel the wrath of the fans.... in the last couple of months you can feel the tide turning
I've seen nothing to suggest the man knows how to set up a team to play attacking football - fair enough we are a lot more solid and he's cleared a lot of 'dead wood' but his decision making is ridiculous sometimes....
From persistence with Rooney, ignoring Herrera and Mata in past, to awful subs to out paper thin squad, to 2 established strikers (one of whom is in the worst form of his xareer) and allowing Hernandez to leave.... the guy is a joker
It feels like our best football has come in spite of him.... a couple of bad results and he will feel the wrath of the fans.... in the last couple of months you can feel the tide turning