Let's just focus on bale for now. I don't think it's a push to say that he'll be able to perform similar to those games v inter. Yes alves is a bit better than Maicon and I'd have chumpitaz over lucio but is it too far fetched to imagine bale getting in behind chumpitaz at least a couple of times in this game? Particularly when pele drops a bit deeper and plays him in behind. Once in behind , as we have seen he can be extremely accurate shooting across goal.
LV Monopoly draft - QF3: Enigma vs DavidG
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
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I don't think that he ever played as good as he did in those two games, not sure that it's fair to assume that it was his genuine peak level. He was/is still brilliant, mind, but not that brilliant (he'd be better than Garrincha and Dzajic combined if we'd count his performance level on those two games). And Chumpitaz is much better than Lucio.
The players he made look silly a few times were Maicon, zanetti and lucio. It's not a world apart from alves, Xavi and chumpitaz ( particularly Xavi who is FAR superior to Zanetti in every area except stamina and defending)
Even if those performance were one off, the set up of the opposition in this game means bale is more than capable of having a similar performance.
I'm not going to argue with you , I do see your points (as always) but I hope you can see that there are other paths to goal than just crossing, this example of bale being perhaps the most effective alternative.
As for Beckham , well , of course he's going to spend a lot of the time pinging the ball into the box, he is- by some distance for me- the best to ever do it so it's natural to utilize him that way.
So basically the whole defense here is better than the one he faced and he is yet to reach the level from that game but suddenly he'll have the same here? Right.
I actually think he could do better.
Dani alves has Roberto Carlos to worry about too ( I believe it was assou-ekotto playing LB in those games) Xavi is nowhere near zanettis defensive levels and chumpitaz isn't as quick as bale.
As in score/assist 4? 5?
This is Marcelos best moments v Barcelona , a large portion of which are against Dani alves and quite a few where he's against Xavi.
Roberto Carlos is better than Marcelo in every conceivable way, and some of alves defending in this video is laughable. Hard to imagine Carlos not being even more effective particularly with a dedicated left midfielder helping him.
Roberto Carlos is better than Marcelo in every conceivable way, and some of alves defending in this video is laughable. Hard to imagine Carlos not being even more effective particularly with a dedicated left midfielder helping him.
It's impossible to decide 
Aye I see your point. My point stands, it's a right side he can thrive against.
Don't vote. I have no idea what the score is, so you can join me in the unknownIt's impossible to decide
As you at it how many goals has Bale against Barcelona and against Dani Alves at right back?
How often has bale played as LW v Barcelona? He almost always starts from the right with Ronaldo on the left.
Ok let's assume he's up against Alba who is not better than Dani Alves defensively, still the question stands?
I'm playing him on the left, referencing his peak performances. His performances for Real Madrid are irrelevant. He started developing into a world class player in this position and his best performances have come from this position , so of course I'm going to use him here.
Even at Spurs he was coming a lot centrally and from the right wing in that season. Or you are basing Bale on one isolated performance?
Dani Alves and Xavi on the right is perfectly fine. They played in those positions for half a decade winning everything under the sun, yet now is a problem?
Decided to check the score , surprised it's not closer.
Julio Cesar must be playing a blinder.
Too many voters just not commenting at all makes it a bit pointless to go on discussing it.
Julio Cesar must be playing a blinder.
Too many voters just not commenting at all makes it a bit pointless to go on discussing it.
It's close not that far either. I don't like revealing the score midway through the game to be honest, it goes against the whole idea behind the voting system.
Actually, just another point which I touched upon in my last game. I quite clearly love the Combinations on the side and here's why;
Carlos and Bale- Carlos always comes in for criticism defensively. Yes he's no facchetti, but he's good enough in this setting and has the pace and strength to recover well. I don't know if Carlos ever had someone who was quicker than him playing in front of him, but he has that in Bale. They will not both be bombing down the wing all the time, if bale goes on one of his runs Carlos WILL stay back which adds one more capable player to deal with the threat of a counter. If Carlos does get beyond Bale , then who better to cover for the Brazilian than someone who came into the game as a full back and knows the position well. It's a brilliant combination.
Cafu and Beckham- just the perfect right side combination. Beckham is more than capable of tracking back, and demonstrated a lot of defensive disciple when played as RCM for Hoddles England. It's an extremely fit right hand side (maybe the fittest possible) and once Beckham has crossed it, Cafu is likely going to be on his way back into his defensive position so the counter attack looks less intimidating now.
Carlos and Bale- Carlos always comes in for criticism defensively. Yes he's no facchetti, but he's good enough in this setting and has the pace and strength to recover well. I don't know if Carlos ever had someone who was quicker than him playing in front of him, but he has that in Bale. They will not both be bombing down the wing all the time, if bale goes on one of his runs Carlos WILL stay back which adds one more capable player to deal with the threat of a counter. If Carlos does get beyond Bale , then who better to cover for the Brazilian than someone who came into the game as a full back and knows the position well. It's a brilliant combination.
Cafu and Beckham- just the perfect right side combination. Beckham is more than capable of tracking back, and demonstrated a lot of defensive disciple when played as RCM for Hoddles England. It's an extremely fit right hand side (maybe the fittest possible) and once Beckham has crossed it, Cafu is likely going to be on his way back into his defensive position so the counter attack looks less intimidating now.
In your last game you tagged your opponent saying you were going to vote for yourself , and I had a part In my OP asking if you would refrain. It makes it much better if we both don't know.
Hence I PM'd you in the beginning of the game telling you that I've voted for myself and if you want you can do the same to see the score to which you replied that you probably won't?
Aye I was expecting more involvement but it's basically just been you and I ( of course wer going to back up ourselves ) so didn't see the point in not knowing.
Election fever I guess
Well sure, that's why I PM'd you right after I saw the last para as it was a lengthy post and I already started responding to some of the points. I have no problem with you seeing the score on the contrary. However revealing it throughout the game isn't in the spirit of the draft IMO(it isn't that far off anyway), and since that you gained 2 so probably that strategy worked
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I feel we've began to rehash the same stuff. I can see your flanks point but as I said and also @harms added - to me you don't have the perfect setup for exploiting those flanks:
1. Pele and Gullit is not a complimentary partnership.
2. Pele is not at his best at leading the line, as he himself considers more of a midfielder not a center forward.
3. Seedorf and De Rossi won't be able to hold their own in the middle.
4. Vidic and De Rossi are ill equipped at dealing with either of Ronaldinho, Eusebio and Ronaldo
5. There is too much space on the counter left for those three to exploit.
Bale at left back and wing forward at the same time is not the mature Bale that you present here. That's not his game at all. Besides at Real as you mentioned he plays as a RW. In his last season at Spurs he played as a free roaming forward. One game against off peak Maicon doesn't prove your point mate, especially since Bale hasn't been able to reproduce that performance so far
It was two games , and it was champions league winner Maicon and more importantly champions league winner Julio Cesar he embarassed. You're getting a bit of a free ride for him. There are at least 10 better keepers in the past decade and only a few of those would look at home in an all time setting.I feel we've began to rehash the same stuff. I can see your flanks point but as I said and also @harms added - to me you don't have the perfect setup for exploiting those flanks:
1. Pele and Gullit is not a complimentary partnership.
2. Pele is not at his best at leading the line, as he himself considers more of a midfielder not a center forward.
3. Seedorf and De Rossi won't be able to hold their own in the middle.
4. Vidic and De Rossi are ill equipped at dealing with either of Ronaldinho, Eusebio and Ronaldo
5. There is too much space on the counter left for those three to exploit.
Bale at left back and wing forward at the same time is not the mature Bale that you present here. That's not his game at all. Besides at Real as you mentioned he plays as a RW. In his last season at Spurs he played as a free roaming forward. One game against off peak Maicon doesn't prove your point mate, especially since Bale hasn't been able to reproduce that performance so far
Re point 4: what is baresi doing in this situation? Vidic is no slouch , he can do well against any attack, but there's arguably the greatest defender of all time next to him.I feel we've began to rehash the same stuff. I can see your flanks point but as I said and also @harms added - to me you don't have the perfect setup for exploiting those flanks:
1. Pele and Gullit is not a complimentary partnership.
2. Pele is not at his best at leading the line, as he himself considers more of a midfielder not a center forward.
3. Seedorf and De Rossi won't be able to hold their own in the middle.
4. Vidic and De Rossi are ill equipped at dealing with either of Ronaldinho, Eusebio and Ronaldo
5. There is too much space on the counter left for those three to exploit.
Bale at left back and wing forward at the same time is not the mature Bale that you present here. That's not his game at all. Besides at Real as you mentioned he plays as a RW. In his last season at Spurs he played as a free roaming forward. One game against off peak Maicon doesn't prove your point mate, especially since Bale hasn't been able to reproduce that performance so far
and Vidic was not embarrassed by Torres over not just one game?
I don't see any point of going back and forth with the same stuff I already made my point in regards to Julio Cesar here:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/lv-monopoly-draft-qf3-enigma-vs-davidg.423583/page-2#post-20037174
yet Vidic didn't do well against Torres who is streets behind either of that front three.
Baresi in that situation has to cover for the other two in Eusebio and Ronaldinho while your full backs are gung ho in our half and Gullit and Pele are in the box waiting for a cross.
With the latter I think you are getting a free ride mate for playing a crossing game in a 4-6-0 formation.
Can you give me an example of that gameplan being successful in a side without a center forward? Just one?
Ok, this is probably how people might expect my team to look versus yours when I'm in possession and attacking.
The reality is, particularly when Bale is driving down the wing and theres simply no point of carlos overlapping, then It might look something like this;
Now Baresi has enough intelligence to not get caught out with a simple ball over the top. Vidic will dominate all of these players in the air ( it's not even a contest ) and as you can see from Carlos and Cafu's positioning, they are hardly exposed and both have enough pace to get back in and disrupt the play of your forwards.
Now of course there are occasions when carlos/ cafu may go a bit further and it'll be an extra 10 yards to make up, but you've made out like De Rossi, Vidic and Baresi are on their own for the entire game. Seedorf, as mentioned in the write up, is more defensively focussed so thats one more helping out, and its not like they have to worry about some speedsters coming through the middle, xavi and souness as good as they are are both slow and if they are the ones launching a quick counter then they are going to take a while to catch up with play. Baresi, Vidic, De Rossi and Seedorf are more than capable of holding up your attack, and its only a few seconds at most before Cafu and Carlos are their helping and a few more seconds on top of that before you have everyone back except Pele.
A ball over the top? Have you ever heard of a through ball?Ok, this is probably how people might expect my team to look versus yours when I'm in possession and attacking.
The reality is, particularly when Bale is driving down the wing and theres simply no point of carlos overlapping, then It might look something like this;
Now Baresi has enough intelligence to not get caught out with a simple ball over the top. Vidic will dominate all of these players in the air ( it's not even a contest ) and as you can see from Carlos and Cafu's positioning, they are hardly exposed and both have enough pace to get back in and disrupt the play of your forwards.
Now of course there are occasions when carlos/ cafu may go a bit further and it'll be an extra 10 yards to make up, but you've made out like De Rossi, Vidic and Baresi are on their own for the entire game. Seedorf, as mentioned in the write up, is more defensively focussed so thats one more helping out, and its not like they have to worry about some speedsters coming through the middle, xavi and souness as good as they are are both slow and if they are the ones launching a quick counter then they are going to take a while to catch up with play. Baresi, Vidic, De Rossi and Seedorf are more than capable of holding up your attack, and its only a few seconds at most before Cafu and Carlos are their helping and a few more seconds on top of that before you have everyone back except Pele.
Xavi, Souness and Schuster are one of the best passers you can get in the game, really?
In your first graph defending with De Rossi and Vidic against two of Eusebio, Ronaldiho and Ronaldo is really a suicide. Either of those can rip the two apart with pace and dribble, while Baresi would end up covering all three of them.
Also both graphs are exactly what I had in mind. You are crossing the ball with Desailly, Chumpitaz, Schnellinger - all top defenders both in positional and pure defensive sense assumed positions in the box, while there is literally no one from your team there?
If you missed my question above - has a successful team employed that crossing game with a 4-6-0 formation without a centre forward?
Maybe Brazil 1970?
This game doesn't suit Pele at all, he should be behind a centre forward pulling the strings where he's at his best.
The second graph is the more accurate one in terms of what I'd expect. It's to illustrate the fact that you won't be able to counter attack at will as suggested.
If baresi can read a ball over the top , he can read a through ball too.
Erm, it kinda is. You have no one in the box, a big gap between Pele/Gullit and Seedorf, while Baresi somehow will keep not one, not two, but 3 of the best forwards in the game singlehandedly?
Where have I even remotely suggested that?
on a counter as you rightly depicted Seedorf is covering the area in midfield - Eusebio even if he's close to him can outrun him. Ronaldo and Ronaldinho both have head start and both are faster than him. Xavi, Souness, Schuster, even Dani Alves are perfectly capable of playing a through ball in space.
Once the ball gets to one of the forwards, let's assume that's Eusebio he has the option to pass to Ronaldo or Ronaldinho and you have De Rossi and Vidic apart from Baresi covering(your full backs as depicted on the graph are at least 10 yards forward). If Baresi tries to intercept and Eusebio knocks it to Ronaldo - that's game over, same if he knocks it to Ronaldinho for the matter.
Ronaldo or Ronaldinho against Vidic or De Rossi 1 on 1 is a battle you can't win. Given how Ronaldo is against keepers 1 on 1 he'll be lying on the ground after two seconds, regardless of how great he is.
out of those three only Baresi is capable of doing what you want them to do - the other two against either one of my three is a bit of a mismatch.
And again, how will you capitalize that crossing advantage when you have no one in the box in the two graphs?
ALL of my defensive players are capable of holding up attackers. The same way bale might not get past bale every time or pele take the piss out of chumpitaz, your players aren't just going to cut through every Single time. The defence starts with a very knowledgable and influential keeper, and is commanded by baresi which is about as good as it gets in terms of leadership from the back. All we need to do is hold you up for a few seconds ( and all your players as good as they are are all at some point likely to hold onto the ball a bit too long) and then there's coverage.
Of course they aren't but there's huge probability they might given the set up and given that you can hardly find better passers on the pitch than those providing service.
It's a lot better route to goal than crossing to nobody in the box isn't it?
Ronaldinho in space and on a counter:
Forget the game for a second, can you tell me with a straight face that Vidic and De Rossi of all people are the ones to deal with either Ronaldinho, Ronaldo or Eusebio on counter?
And Baresi as good as he is can't possibly win every 1 on 1 against those 3 attackers. He'll have a solid game no doubt but having them at full pelt and with options to combine is impossible task for anyone.
@1:20 Piksi scoring against prime Baresi among Rijkaard and other top defenders at the time. He possesses quite similar qualities in his dribbling to those three. Baresi had a torrid time against him and Savicevic in those 2 games as well.
@1:20 Piksi scoring against prime Baresi among Rijkaard and other top defenders at the time. He possesses quite similar qualities in his dribbling to those three. Baresi had a torrid time against him and Savicevic in those 2 games as well.
I think if you take those attackers at their peak, then it could be rijkaard and Nesta and they'd have a torrid time. But I do back them to be able to disrupt you enough times and have enough in transition to then threaten you at the other end.
Obviously we back our own teams but the reality is one of us wins this game 5-4 on the field.
Now can you look me dead in the eye and say that Julio Cesar belongs in this company any more than De Rossi does.
7-1
7-1
So it doesn't matter if it is Rijkaard/Nesta or De Rossi and Vidic really?
That's not answering the question at all. You know both De Rossi and Vidic - their strengths and weaknesses and pretty much everybody else does. Are they fit for those type of forwards or not?
You mean De Rossi that got humiliated 4-0 by Xavi in the final?
Julio Cesar was 35 at the time, past his prime and playing at Toronto. He's still one of the top keepers of his generation. Obviously you got the better keeper and I have no problems admitting that.
and since you mentioned 7-1 - here's one with De Rossi in it.
1st goal - De Rossi trotting about when Carrick scores just off the box.
3rd goal C.Ronaldo blitzing past him as he's not even there.
and so on.
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Of course they are fit to impact their influence.
Go and watch the Hereford v Newcastle game from the FA cup. It's all about the system and the commitment to the cause, and it often overshadows individual ability. You can't question Vidic or De Rossi's attitude , and yes they are worlds apart in terms of ability but it doesn't mean they can't do a job , particularly with the rest of the side just as disciplined , fit as fiddles and more than able to dig out these " average " players
I'm not questioning their attitude, but their ability to do the job here. You seem to be evading the question for a third time so no point in asking it over and over again.
That and the one whether playing a 4-6-0 is well suited to your gameplan.
We're going in circles and getting already late in my place so I'll let the voters decide and be back tomorrow. Good night and good luck.