Maybe, but it least it's actually providing an interesting discussion rather than people going back and forth on whether Ole should say or whether Lingard should be banished to the reserves.
LVG 'laying the foundations'
- Thread starter Tyrion
- Start date
He's like Rick Sanchez, but from a bad universe.
Lunatic, methodical, but really, he is just nonsensical.
Never in my life I've slept watching United. LvG broke that record.
Lunatic, methodical, but really, he is just nonsensical.
Never in my life I've slept watching United. LvG broke that record.
Players he bought. . Well who are left Shaw and Martial? He bought some terrible players and sold some who were better. Rojo for Evans ! Absolute joke of a manager. Sadly we aren't any better ATM.
Also got rid of hernandez and the twins iirc. Not saying we shouldnt have gotten rid of them, but all at once? Those were winners. We replaced with them mercenaries and second rate players.
Moyes and LVG were in charge of two clear outs.
Moyes cleared out all the records fergie attained.
LVG cleared out the winners and leaders we had in the squad.
He introduced Rashford. Maybe not willingly, but he did.
LVG laid the foundation before it became mainstream
My definition of laying the foundation, is on tactics and structure, not players. Klopp laid the foundation for Dortmund, so whoever replaces him can simply replicate the same structure even with players coming in and out. People said Cruff laid the foundation on Barca, some modification is welcome but generally speaking Barca always play the Barca style. Every new manager coming into Utd has his own philosophy and re-learn every single time. Worst part of LVG was that he bought in useless defenders and MF that we need to get rid of ASAP, where is the continuity?
Not wanting to get into to an Ole in or Ole out argument but you must have been pretty close to falling asleep a lot of the time this season too? Jose's second season was pretty exhausting viewing as well.
Yeah I think a lot called them all deadwood since they didn't perform under Moyes so was happy to sell them all.
True that some players got too old or was past the peak.
Few have really dominated past we sold them though. Evans doing well now. Welbeck injured even more than Jones. Hernandez did ok in Germany.
Rafael not really done much. Vidic and Ferdinand did nothing and retired. Fletcher ok job at Stoke, but not top class. Cleverley not much at all.
Persie nothing good. Januzaj alright now in Sociedad, but not amazing.
Evra and Nani did some good things, but not for long times. Would have been worth keeping for a few more years though.
Both reached a European cup final in 2016 and Nani won it.
If only we had a DOF who had the club playing a certain style with players brought in to suit that style over the long term, then the post Ferguson managers might have all left a legacy.
As it is with Woodward in charge and managers having a good say but not control of transfers its a mess of half built plans and failures.
For me this is on Woody far more than any manager.
Interestingly I was looking through Uniteds history of managers with win % and none of the last 4 are that low on the list. Mourinho was even a comfortable 2nd only just behind SAF! If he had of been sacked after that summer melt down he would of been no 1 which is crazy.
As it is with Woodward in charge and managers having a good say but not control of transfers its a mess of half built plans and failures.
For me this is on Woody far more than any manager.
Interestingly I was looking through Uniteds history of managers with win % and none of the last 4 are that low on the list. Mourinho was even a comfortable 2nd only just behind SAF! If he had of been sacked after that summer melt down he would of been no 1 which is crazy.
Maybe we should have kept Evans and Zaha.
How much of the structure is down to the manager though? Often it is those above him that sets that. I know SAF did more than most others regarding that.
Tactics change with new managers too. Coaching can improve and teach the players tactical ideas etc. Although these things aren't often advanced needing 5 years to teach them or stuff like that.
Although experience will certainly teach players to read the game better and thus improve movement, positioning and what to do with the ball etc.
What takes the cake is that they were moved on with no respect at all. Especially hernandez and nani.
The Nani move was strange. LVG wanted to play 3-5-2 without winger so Zaha and Nani was not needed in his mind.
Although 4 months later he did realize he needed to play with wingers again after terrible results and we barely had any.
Mata on the wing did well for our great spell under him and Young was brilliant then too.
Although would have been nice to have some more proper winger around too.
Di Maria sadly had 0 confidence left at that point.
As this has been bumped up, the mistake Ed made here was, he went with a coach (Jose), who was the opposite to LVG. Imo, LVG laid the correct foundations but was outdated in certain aspects of his game, side-to-side passing and making sure you have a touch before you shoot etc. Ed should have replaced LVG with Pochettino at the time.
But Ed then has done something similar by hiring Ole, whose philosophy is different to Jose's and therefore has taken time to rip up and start again. There is no consistency with Ed's choices in football.
But Ed then has done something similar by hiring Ole, whose philosophy is different to Jose's and therefore has taken time to rip up and start again. There is no consistency with Ed's choices in football.
I agree there is no direction from the board. Although I think the only one actually laying correct foundations is Mourinho in terms of buying players suited for his style.
I am no fan of that style and he also often goes for older players, but you can see what he is trying to do.
LVG was all over the place in the market. Ole do not make much sense either.
They might try to coach the players to play their own football, but it doesn't do much good if the style is poor and the players not suited to such style anyway.
He laid the foundations for 5 more years of shocking football and a bloated, overpaid, underperforming squad of average players.
The consistency with Ed's choice is that he goes for the manager that will buy him the most time for his incompetence.
It was against his will?
Ironically his new players mostly doesn't make things easy for him while some of the players he inherited actually did a lot.
He laid very solid foundations of a possession based team for sure, but he didn't get it 100% fine tuned. We had roughly 60% possession every game, but the key weakness was the lack of ideas in the final third (a weakness we still have today unbelievably).
Mourinho came in and destroyed the possession system. 2 years of work down the drain. Now we drop to our knees and thank god if we reach even 45% possession in a full match. If only we still had those possession basics, we could easily see out more games 1-0 and win more points.
Mourinho came in and destroyed the possession system. 2 years of work down the drain. Now we drop to our knees and thank god if we reach even 45% possession in a full match. If only we still had those possession basics, we could easily see out more games 1-0 and win more points.
For me LvG had a better squad to work with than his successors. By selling Kagawa, Nani, Hernandez, Evans, Welbeck, Rafael, Van Persie he just destroyed the core and wasted millions on new players who themselves turned out to be a big disappointment. He could have easily used some of the players from this and wisely bought new ones. He made the squad so thin that Jose had to start from the scratch.
I completely agree with this and I wanted Poch badly after LvG had completed his 3 years. I thought that would have been perfect.
Now we really don't have the basis of any sort of possession based team anymore. Which is why I think Poch would struggle now if he took over. He'll have to rip apart Mourinho/Ole's non-possession based ethos and start from ground zero again. What a waste of time.
Not sure LVGs players helped him very much. Martial had his good moments, but never a key player under Mourinho. Him and Rashford rotated a lot.
It was our old players like Young, Valencia, Smalling, De Gea, Carrick (first season) Jones (even him during the second year) etc that did the dirty basic job.
Plus the Moyes guys Fellaini and Mata.
Also Herrera that LVG often benched and didn't play much, but you could say LVG coached him behind the scenes I guess. Still once we got Matic he played less.
Blind was fairly good, but Mourinho still sold him. Rojo had a few decent games, but mostly didn't play.
Shaw got attacked by Mourinho early and then didn't play much.
Romero was great though so credit for him. I guess improving buying goalkeepers was his thing. Van der Sar at Ajax etc.
Lingard was fine in spells, but not sure we should give massive credit for LVG for that.
Rashford spent 3 months under LVG so less credit than with Lingard.
The rest from the academy did barely play.
Far from it.
At least this time the players are likeable bunch.
Some nice phases of play during those boring matches, players seems care enough.
When we're winning it's exciting, but when we're chasing its 100% more entertaining than LVG's tenure.
Just thinking about those times made me sleepy. Pass, pass, pass, pass, good lord.
Lvg was poor with transfer dealings and had history at previous at clubs of doing the same, if our club had any sense they would have realised this but instead they gave him free reign to sign and sell players as he pleased.
I dont buy the idea that we have necessarily brought poorly, it's more to do with Woodward's choice of managers when replacing the previous, had we got Mourinho after Moyes or Ole after lvg then our squad wouldnt be such a mess.
I dont buy the idea that we have necessarily brought poorly, it's more to do with Woodward's choice of managers when replacing the previous, had we got Mourinho after Moyes or Ole after lvg then our squad wouldnt be such a mess.
For me if Ole took over LVG directly we would be seeing something we are seeing now but a bit more smoother. LVG's 'foundation' idea was only really pulled off in one season. The first season was much more galactico based and clearly influenced by Woodward to get us back in to CL football with players like Falcao playing alongside RVP & Co who looked like they were on their last legs.
The second season he clearly wanted to rip the squad up and build up something younger with an philosophy of playing possession football. The transfers were poor though even though I enjoyed players like Rashford, CBJ, Martial, Lingard playing games with an idea in purpose.
However I think if Ole took directly over from him he would have also used players like depay, Blind and found it easier to continue what he is doing right now & would have bought players we are still missing like a left footed right winger and midfielders with creativity to make the thing flow better.
For me Jose was the complete opposite idea to what Ole & LVG wanted - to build a team around players like Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Tuenzebe, Williams etc, AWB & Jose buying players like Zlatan, Mkhitarayan, Lukaku, Matic put a quick short minded stop gap approach on between two managers who wanted to build long term approaches only within a season each.
LVG's 2nd season trying to build a younger team & Ole's season building a younger team has quite a lot of similarities in terms of injuries as well due to their approaches of purposely lowering their squad count to give the younger players a chance.
The second season he clearly wanted to rip the squad up and build up something younger with an philosophy of playing possession football. The transfers were poor though even though I enjoyed players like Rashford, CBJ, Martial, Lingard playing games with an idea in purpose.
However I think if Ole took directly over from him he would have also used players like depay, Blind and found it easier to continue what he is doing right now & would have bought players we are still missing like a left footed right winger and midfielders with creativity to make the thing flow better.
For me Jose was the complete opposite idea to what Ole & LVG wanted - to build a team around players like Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Tuenzebe, Williams etc, AWB & Jose buying players like Zlatan, Mkhitarayan, Lukaku, Matic put a quick short minded stop gap approach on between two managers who wanted to build long term approaches only within a season each.
LVG's 2nd season trying to build a younger team & Ole's season building a younger team has quite a lot of similarities in terms of injuries as well due to their approaches of purposely lowering their squad count to give the younger players a chance.
Well I don't think LVG planned to use Rashford that much, but was forced to due to injuries. That's how I recall it, maybe I am wrong.
SAF used Rafael in midfield instead of Pogba. LVG could have done something similar but didn't and unearthed something nice and early for us that may still be rotting in the reserves for us if Jose was the manager 4-5 months after LVG as has happened. The short squad was a part of LVG's & Ole's plan for a rebuild towards younger players & injuries are a part of natural football.
LVG like Ole used a short squad to give young players a chance - Mcnair, CBj, Rashford, Lingard, Tuenzebe, TFm and others all got a chance.
Say what you want about him, but the man knew how to give a press conference.
This is the funny thing. Make the squad and results terrible so we have to use young player. Don't think that is the best way to develop them.
LVG was not great with the kids. Rashford just had a great mentality to take his chance and perform better than he would have done in training.
He ruined Januzaj who did well under Moyes. Used lots of other players that never turned great.
We could barely score goals before Rashford got the chance due to injuries to Rooney, Martial, Keane,Powell and Wilson.
He was way down the order.
It is a bit similar with Ole. Although he has given them chances more regulary starting with easier cup games even when we had first team players that could play.
I still wished for more time for Greenwood though given how few options we got up top.
Fair enough, he has used Rashford so I accept that.
I severely disliked Mourinho’s brand of football, but at least I got what he was about. For all LvG’s talk of philosophy I had absolutely no idea what we were trying to do or build under him. He came across about as aimless as it comes.
LvG literally put me off watching United and football in general for at least 6 months
Van Gaal.
Ripped the depth out of the squad, then was forced to throw in sub par youngsters.
Meaning his apologists say he stuck to "Our roots" and was big on playing the youth, when really he was forced too.
Totally lucked out to discover Rashford, as everyone else was injured.
His football was a ridiculous obsessive keep ball style, refusing to shoot unless a high chance of a goal. Meaning we barely scored any goals, and had surely the lowest shots on target stats in our league history.
Ripped the depth out of the squad, then was forced to throw in sub par youngsters.
Meaning his apologists say he stuck to "Our roots" and was big on playing the youth, when really he was forced too.
Totally lucked out to discover Rashford, as everyone else was injured.
His football was a ridiculous obsessive keep ball style, refusing to shoot unless a high chance of a goal. Meaning we barely scored any goals, and had surely the lowest shots on target stats in our league history.
I think LVG was the right ball park of manager we should have been looking for but the wrong choice ultimately. I dont think there was any appetite from fans to be Ajax 3.0 and to choke the life out of games.
His signings were largely terrible, we spent a lot of money on players who were no better than what we were giving away for peanuts. He'd still built the guts of a side you could build on and make something of with a few signings though. That team was probably closer than the one Mourinho left behind. We ripped it up and started again though and I'm not sure it was entirely the wrong choice to be honest - I don't think the style really suited us that much, certainly not the van gaal version of it anyway. Same with Moyes and Mourinho really. There was always going to be grumbles about the shit on a stick football they played. Justifiably.
His signings were largely terrible, we spent a lot of money on players who were no better than what we were giving away for peanuts. He'd still built the guts of a side you could build on and make something of with a few signings though. That team was probably closer than the one Mourinho left behind. We ripped it up and started again though and I'm not sure it was entirely the wrong choice to be honest - I don't think the style really suited us that much, certainly not the van gaal version of it anyway. Same with Moyes and Mourinho really. There was always going to be grumbles about the shit on a stick football they played. Justifiably.
I think we can still see a little of the foundations of what LVG did here. When he brought in the ‘must keep possession’ mindset is when I started to notice our players (especially the wingers) passing backwards rather than taking on a defender or putting a cross in. And so the strikers were generally very static up front, probably knowing the ball wasn’t coming to them. I think it really damaged the players at the time. And while most of them have moved on, a little bit of that old low risk mindset is still there.
Lingard and Martial? Because they are probably the main ones doing that from our attackers. Good for us he didn't get enough time to ruin Rashford
.Definitely you can see the foundation that Ole is building especially in the young players. The market for players are expensive nowdays, and that's why we also need to rely on improving what we got.
Unlike LVG, we don't just randomly field or rushing the young players, we are actually trying to improve the players and we had seen the improvement from our players this season.
LVG didn't build any foundation for "club", he was trying to implement his philosophy of football to our "team".
Unlike LVG, we don't just randomly field or rushing the young players, we are actually trying to improve the players and we had seen the improvement from our players this season.
LVG didn't build any foundation for "club", he was trying to implement his philosophy of football to our "team".
What kind of returns do you expect to see on your investmens in 6 months?